How do you know Satan exists?

[BridgeBuilder]

My other thread got shut down due to debate, so we will need to be careful on this one.

When I was an evangelical Christian years ago, I certainly believed Satan existed. But as I have pursued "New Age" philosophies, I have come to doubt that Satan exists at all, particularly since I believe God is so loving that no angel would have a reason to rebel. I have been told many times that I'm being "misled by Satan", but it's tough to believe this if I don't believe in Satan anymore. In fact, it makes believing in a lot of things presented in the evangelical church rather a challenge if you don't believe in Satan.

So here is an honest question: How do you know Satan exists? And by this, I mean personified evil, an evil being who is "out to get us" and mislead us. And the same goes for demons...how do you know they exist?

I know you will be inclined to quote scripture immediately, and I understand that, but do keep in mind that I currently don't believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant, so that influences my evaluation of scripture.

I did go to church last week and intend to go once again this week. I would not hesitate to ask the minister there this question, as I am being very honest with everyone at this church. (And yes, I believe they do believe in Satan at this church because Satan was indeed mentioned during the sermon last week about Revelation 1, as well as in a couple of the traditional hymns that were sung.)

Respectfully,
BridgeBuilder

 

[Dasdream]

It's simple, look at the world today. Where would all this hate, backstabbing, liaing, hypacrisy murdering and stuff come from? We know that satan was the first liar and first person to trick someone. That pretty much explains who is behind this disasterous world.

 

[dvd_holc]

The Devil comes to tempt humans to exchange the truth of God and the purpose of life for the lie to produce disfunction within the creation to the end of destruction. Hatred, anger, brokenness, lust, bitterness, envy, etc...cause our relationships and lives to be reduced to fractured existences that don't measure to the fulfillment God has designed us for which is love...when we act out bitterness we typically produce more bitterness in others...the spirit of bitterness is transferred from us to others. The spirit of the temptor is the spirit of bitterness and shelfishness. After the Devil has laid the seeds of the evil spirit, he has room for accusations. So then, with the spirit of accusations that you never measure up the spirit of evil is made complete because you are now bitter and can't do anything about it because you accuss others of being no different. Every thought and action of the evil spirit is an act of worship to the evil spirit. In effect, Satan tries to become God by telling you how to do things when God designed us to do what He said.

When you look at the news, do you think that evil does not exist? When someone hurts you, do you think that the pain was benefical? Do you think that hurricanes and tornadoes are good? When people fly planes into buildings do they do this with a purpose and what does it cause?

 

[Calminian]

Scripture tells us about a being named Lucifer that was once the chief of all God's angels. This being rebelled and fell. He was given freedom and chose to use it for evil. This all comes from the Bible. It's a story given by special revelation. We believe it because we believe the Bible to be credible. We can see the existence of evil all around us, but the details about this being, Satan, can only be discovered in scripture.

 

[fishon]

BridgeBuilder,
There is no way to convince you, I believe, with physical arguments that Satan is real. I am a pastor, but have no illusion as to my ability to prove Satan as I do in proving God. That being said, I believe it is easier to see Satan as real more so than seeing God as real, at least for some people.

I grew up in an atheistic home. The only thing I every heard of God was in the form of a curse word. I would have argued with you [and believe me I did with Christians] about the existence of God all day. HOWEVER, I believed that there was a Satan; that is, there was an evil force [being] that was in the World causing people to, rape, murder, war, etc. In my thinking, something alive had to be causing mankind to do such evil to each other. Was there a God, no. Was there Satan, Yes. Now that doesn't answer you, but it did me some good to say it.

You wrote: I have come to doubt that Satan exists at all, particularly since I believe God is so loving that no angel would have a reason to rebel.

By your above statement, you acknowledge that you believe in God: "...since I believe God...." Then you say, "...God is so loving that no angel would have a reason to rebel...."

Let me ask you this. Since you believe in God, and I will assume [you can correct me] that you believe He created man; Why would man have reason to rebel against your loving God? If you don't believe in a real Satan because he would have no reason to rebel, the same question is asked about man rebelling. Unless of course you don't believe the evils men do is rebellion? Man rebels continuously, then why not an angel?
fishon

 

[Calminian]

[/COLOR]
Let me ask you this. Since you believe in God, and I will assume [you can correct me] that you believe He created man; Why would man have reason to rebel against your loving God? If you don't believe in a real Satan because he would have no reason to rebel, the same question is asked about man rebelling. Unless of course you don't believe the evils men do is rebellion? Man rebels continuously, then why not an angel?
fishon

Sounds like an airtight argument to me. Bridge?

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Why would man have reason to rebel against your loving God?

I guess I don't necessarily see mankind's actions as "rebelling against God". That statement assumes a "controlling" God that one would want to "rebel" against. I think it has more to do with "misunderstanding" God, or not knowing how to find God, rather than "rebelling against" God.

Do I see evidence of absolute "evil" in our world? I certainly do see that not all of us are living in partnership with a loving God and there is certainly much to learn. But do I see it as evidence of "personified evil". I'm just not convinced.

I know I may come across as "unconvinceable", and I can certainly understand why some might consider these discussions going nowhere. But I'm here talking to you, and that certainly wasn't the case a couple weeks ago. I'm going to church again, even a "mainstream" church, even enjoying it, amazing myself really, and that certainly wasn't something I expected to be doing a month ago. So take that for what it is worth.

Respectfully,
BridgeBuilder

 

[Calminian]

Just to be clear, I personally don't think you are unconvincible, just perhaps unconvincible by men. In truth, only God can persuade men. He may used some of us to persuade you, but then again, He may not. I hope He does! The fact that you have gained an interest in Christianity as of late is solely due to Him working in your life.

But, most of your arguments are emotional rather than rational. There's nothing wrong with emotions, but they're a little more difficult to address given their subjectivity (at least for me). In essence you are saying that if you were God you would have done things differently than the biblical God, therefore He must not exist. I'm confident I could destroy the logic of this argument, but don’t think I would get anywhere with you by doing so. A bit of a dilemma.

 

[revmalone]

My other thread got shut down due to debate, so we will need to be careful on this one.

When I was an evangelical Christian years ago, I certainly believed Satan existed. But as I have pursued "New Age" philosophies, I have come to doubt that Satan exists at all, particularly since I believe God is so loving that no angel would have a reason to rebel. I have been told many times that I'm being "misled by Satan", but it's tough to believe this if I don't believe in Satan anymore. In fact, it makes believing in a lot of things presented in the evangelical church rather a challenge if you don't believe in Satan.

So here is an honest question: How do you know Satan exists? And by this, I mean personified evil, an evil being who is "out to get us" and mislead us. And the same goes for demons...how do you know they exist?

I know you will be inclined to quote scripture immediately, and I understand that, but do keep in mind that I currently don't believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant, so that influences my evaluation of scripture.

I did go to church last week and intend to go once again this week. I would not hesitate to ask the minister there this question, as I am being very honest with everyone at this church. (And yes, I believe they do believe in Satan at this church because Satan was indeed mentioned during the sermon last week about Revelation 1, as well as in a couple of the traditional hymns that were sung.)

Respectfully,
BridgeBuilder

Greetings
He always Starts by questiong things , it's in the bible, ha ha .
Rev Malone

 

[Rafael]

Satan provides the contrast to God's light. Have you ever seen a painting or portrait on a white canvass that can show anything painted with only white? No, black, the very absence of light is the very thing that is perfect for definition and contrast. The various shades of all the colors of light, which has all of the spectrum, provides depth and breauty to what would be revealed in the masterpiece of life that God fashions in each of us.. We are called God's masterpiece, and He reveals Jesus and the divine nature in each of us through His Holy Spirit if we yield ourselves to His will by the choice of love. The devil in the garden provided that choice. Why else would God put man in the garden with a devil? Something wonderful was to come of it all through God's power, but it was not going to be easy - especially to the Son of God who knew the cross and suffering to come from the foundations.
Satan is the opposite of God in all things and represents the opportunity that can be taaken when free will exists. Without free will, the love that could only be experienced through having the choice to love could not be realized. Have you ever heard of true love taking placed when it is forced or programmed in? No. the essence or the "something" that is the mystery of love is missed when one cannot choose for themselves on whom their affections and adoration are directed.
Imo. God knew and edxpected man would fall into sin and death, and by knowing, He prepared with the lamb slain before the foundations, as God also stands outside of time, knowing begining from end. He prepares that "all things work together for good; to them that love God and are the called according to His purpose" - even the bad things of "all" work out for good (Rom. 8:28). With God, nothing is lost, so it is entirely the choice of satan and man that any would be lost to the second and final death, as all know of God by His creation; even innately by the conscious being they possess as a gift of life from Him..

 

[BelindaP]

I've never encountered the Big Kahuna myself, but I can tell you stories about encounters with demons that will curl your hair.

Would that be convincing enough?

 

[BridgeBuilder]

I actually have heard reports of what some would view as "demon" encounters. I have even experienced something unusual myself in that domain (which was witnessed by another person as well).

Do I believe in "darkness"? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. But I don't completely understand what it is. Do I believe there are "beings" out there who appear malevolent and not out for our best interests? Yes, I do. So what do "New Agers" think about this? They tend to believe that there are beings who are not as "advanced" as others who attempt to impose their will on those who appear weaker than they are. But are these beings "absolute" evil? Or just not very advanced? And are they evidence of a single being of malevolence like Satan?

As for me, I'm really not sure what I believe. I really have personally experienced something that was rather frightening and appeared "supernatural", but I won't even go there to describe it in detail. It was quite recent actually and afterwards was when I started going to church and began having what I would call a "spiritual awakening". Before this experience, I couldn't even pick up a Bible or listen to hymns, let alone go to church, and now all of a sudden, I can, it's really quite remarkable. I tried describing what happened on another Christian forum, and it upset some people, so I deleted the post altogether. All I can say though is that when I was in this rather frightening situation, I called upon God and asked for an angel to come and assist me (at the urging of someone else who was with me, who said to call upon an angel) and was delivered (even if that goes against evangelical logic due to that story in the Bible about the Saducees (?) being overcome by demons because they didn't "believe"). Maybe I was supposed to experience this for a reason, I don't know, but I did, and I was truly delivered. And afterwards, I saw this bright light (we BOTH saw it, the other person saw it too) and felt the most incredible love imaginable, it had to be the love of God, I don't know what else it could have been. It brought me to tears, it was so powerful, this personal love of God for me. And the light, it was unlike anything I have ever experienced, I just don't know what to make of it. And what is fascinating is that the other "New Ager" who was with me at the time (who happens to be my fiance) witnessed the entire thing and ALSO felt the love of God at the conclusion. And my fiance is accompanying me to church too!

If any of you want to PM me for the details, I will talk about it, but it really did upset some people on another forum because it was rather frightening, and even I feel it's best not to focus on such things. A verse from my youth comes to mind, which was a favorite verse of my mother's (Philippians 4:8):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

[/FONT]OK, you must be wondering at this point how I could still be questioning. How could I still be doubting? Why have I not fallen on my knees and repented by now? Yet I am still doubting, I don't completely understand WHAT is going on here. There are so many possible explanations, some "New Age", some not. I'm not going to play games with you guys and pretend to be something I'm not. That would not be helpful. I will admit I'm on a journey here, and I'm not exactly sure where it is leading. Your prayers are welcome though, I do believe in prayer.

Respectfully,
BridgeBuilder

 

[rocklife]

My other thread got shut down due to debate, so we will need to be careful on this one.

When I was an evangelical Christian years ago, I certainly believed Satan existed. But as I have pursued "New Age" philosophies, I have come to doubt that Satan exists at all, particularly since I believe God is so loving that no angel would have a reason to rebel. I have been told many times that I'm being "misled by Satan", but it's tough to believe this if I don't believe in Satan anymore. In fact, it makes believing in a lot of things presented in the evangelical church rather a challenge if you don't believe in Satan.

So here is an honest question: How do you know Satan exists? And by this, I mean personified evil, an evil being who is "out to get us" and mislead us. And the same goes for demons...how do you know they exist?

I know you will be inclined to quote scripture immediately, and I understand that, but do keep in mind that I currently don't believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant, so that influences my evaluation of scripture.

I did go to church last week and intend to go once again this week. I would not hesitate to ask the minister there this question, as I am being very honest with everyone at this church. (And yes, I believe they do believe in Satan at this church because Satan was indeed mentioned during the sermon last week about Revelation 1, as well as in a couple of the traditional hymns that were sung.)

Respectfully,
BridgeBuilder

He is mentioned in Genesis, and OT, and New Testament, and the last book Revelation. God is loving, but an angel seems to have wanted God's glory and worship, lucifer also loved how beautiful God made him and seems to worship his beauty, and was able to plant ideas in some other angels, that's the idea I get from bible and other christians. basically selfishness. I am still young in the faith and learning too.

I don't take all the bible literally, but I also give myself room to say "I don't know everything, I don't understand everything, but I trust God." I don't understand all the bible, but can see some are taken more spiritually than literally (for example, Jesus says if your eye causes you to sin, poke it out, if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. I don't believe that is literal, sane people won't do that in good conscience. Jesus shows sin is so serious we need to take drastic action to get away from it, stay away, it is that bad).

just seeing how evil this time is, its not a stretch for me to see giant evil source like satan helping it along. And remember, God is more powerful than evil. With Him, satan is no biggie. The new testament warns a lot, this life isn't all going to feel good to our flesh, but all things work for the good of those in Christ Jesus, even hardship.

 

[rocklife]

Your prayers are welcome though

sure, am praying for you

 

[rocklife]

here is an online bible study resource. You can watch sermons explaining some of these things. http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp

Click Watch on "The Rebellious Prince" I believe is their bible study on Satan. Reading the lesson will probably give you more scripture references (go through both for most information). This can give you some help about what Christians believe about lucifer.

 

[Stinker]

Thousands of years ago, if a person did not think and do what they innately knew was good, this was called evil.

To obey our carnal (animal) nature by overcoming it's control over us, was later attributed to an exterior force...Satan and his demons. Satan 'tempts' us to give in to our carnal desires, thereby gaining a victory over God.

This moral evil is said to be more evidence of a personal tempter than the natural evil (natural disasters).

We have discovered that when a person has a chemical imbalance in the brain....they are mentally ill, insane. They are not demon possessed.

If a person has no evidence of a chemical imbalance and yet thinks and behaves perversely, they have a moral problem. They are not demon possessed.
http://personalpages.tds.net/~theseeker/ZOROAS~1.HTM

 

[MichaelNZ]

If you want, you can watch this video of a Russian Orthodox Exorcism. But this video might frighten some people, so watch at your own risk!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92EyZEzctdY

 

[artybloke]

It's simple, look at the world today. Where would all this hate, backstabbing, liaing, hypacrisy murdering and stuff come from?

Us. Satan is nothing but a projection of us.

 

[von]

May God bless you all.

 

[calidog]

Because I believe God exists