• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

How do you handle it....

ceruleanbutterfly

Junior Member
Jan 19, 2014
65
1
✟22,791.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How do you handle it when following the laws of the church destroys your dreams?

A law that has only been made up in the last 100 years is doing so much damage in my life. I want to follow Christ and His Church but it is getting harder and harder lately.

After talking to a priest that isn't our parish priest my husband is doing much better, and our marriage is much better. We are trying so hard to follow Christ and to obey Him.

Maybe if I explain it might help. My husband has azoospermia. That means he will never father a child and it is killing us. We are both ok with the idea of a donor but the church says no. I can't begin to tell you how not having a child is affecting us. It is destroying us. We want a family and we have been trying for almost four years to have our own, we have even made a pilgrimage to a monastery where the abbess has been known to help couples have children we have tried so many things.

We are desperate and at the end of our rope. We are ready to give up and go against our church and get a donor if that is what it takes. We want to stay faithful but at what cost?
 

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Don't have another man's child. Believe God to heal your husband.

Father, I pray that you'll heal her husband's body and make him fertile so that she can bear his children. May your husband be healed in the name of Jesus.

Now go make a baby.

So get to work. Ora et labora. Faith without works is dead.
 
Upvote 0

johndoo

Newbie
Mar 5, 2013
349
128
✟75,389.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Butterfly,

I strongly disagree with Link.
The rules of your church are a man-made religion.
Not all Christians believe that. I don't believe that using a donor is wrong.
Using a donor in no way damages your relationship with God or Jesus.
You may choose to leave your church or to just proceed without the church's blessing. Many of us stay in churches even though we don't agree or live with all of their rules.
You may also be blessed through adoption if you choose that route.
My spouse and I have infertility issues also. May God bless you richly through this struggle.
 
Upvote 0

LoveConquers

Imperfectly Perfect
Site Supporter
Feb 2, 2014
1,786
55
✟78,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I think your conversation should be more with God as opposed to the church, if you understand what I am saying...

Churches are led by people, and people are fallible. Speak to God and see if you can determine what direction the Holy Spirit is leading you to. Maybe God is directing you to go that way and use a donor...or maybe He wants to provide you with your hearts desire via another means. But only you (and your husband) can truly tell what God wants you to do in this extremely difficult situation.
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟79,923.00
Country
France
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Don't have another man's child. Believe God to heal your husband.

Father, I pray that you'll heal her husband's body and make him fertile so that she can bear his children. May your husband be healed in the name of Jesus.

Now go make a baby.

So get to work. Ora et labora. Faith without works is dead.

Really? "Now go make a baby"? Do you understand how offensive and hurtful that is to someone who cannot do that? Or do you think that because you typed those words, you healed him. OMW.
 
Upvote 0

Autumnleaf

Legend
Jun 18, 2005
24,828
1,034
✟33,297.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Really? "Now go make a baby"? Do you understand how offensive and hurtful that is to someone who cannot do that? Or do you think that because you typed those words, you healed him. OMW.

Don't you have faith that God can heal if He is called upon to do so? Faith as small as mustard can move mountains or something like that.
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟79,923.00
Country
France
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
How do you handle it when following the laws of the church destroys your dreams?

A law that has only been made up in the last 100 years is doing so much damage in my life. I want to follow Christ and His Church but it is getting harder and harder lately.

After talking to a priest that isn't our parish priest my husband is doing much better, and our marriage is much better. We are trying so hard to follow Christ and to obey Him.

Maybe if I explain it might help. My husband has azoospermia. That means he will never father a child and it is killing us. We are both ok with the idea of a donor but the church says no. I can't begin to tell you how not having a child is affecting us. It is destroying us. We want a family and we have been trying for almost four years to have our own, we have even made a pilgrimage to a monastery where the abbess has been known to help couples have children we have tried so many things.

We are desperate and at the end of our rope. We are ready to give up and go against our church and get a donor if that is what it takes. We want to stay faithful but at what cost?

I am so sorry for what you are dealing with, infertility is heart-breaking. As you can probably see the thread that I started - I don't believe that anyone else should dictate if and when and how many children a couple should have. That includes church intervention, because the church is made up of people, and the 'rules' they make are entirely human.

I don't suppose you would consider adoption? There are so many children in need of parents out there. But if not, I would pray on it, and then make the decision that you are both fully agreed upon, with full understanding of what this means (that the child is not your husband's biological offspring being one of those issues).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

peckaboo

Newbie
Jul 11, 2011
394
33
England
✟23,184.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My understanding of orthodox doctrine is hazy at best, but am I right in thinking they tend to be quite staunchly pro-life, and believe that life begins at conception? If that's the case, perhaps they would look more kindly on embryo adoption than on using a donor, if that was something you and your husband were willing to consider..?
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟79,923.00
Country
France
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Don't you have faith that God can heal if He is called upon to do so? Faith as small as mustard can move mountains or something like that.

"Or something like that"?

You have children of your own. As do I. As does Link. It's easy to sit back and type words on a screen and say "now go make a baby" - like it's going to happen just like that.

If God answered every one of those prayers there would not be millions of childless couples in the world, would there?

God has other ways of answering prayers. Anyone who closes their mind to those other ways has little faith.
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟79,923.00
Country
France
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Butterfly,

I strongly disagree with Link.
The rules of your church are a man-made religion.
Not all Christians believe that. I don't believe that using a donor is wrong.
Using a donor in no way damages your relationship with God or Jesus.
You may choose to leave your church or to just proceed without the church's blessing. Many of us stay in churches even though we don't agree or live with all of their rules.
You may also be blessed through adoption if you choose that route.
My spouse and I have infertility issues also. May God bless you richly through this struggle.

:amen:
 
Upvote 0

ValleyGal

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2012
5,775
1,823
✟129,255.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Divorced
God gave Moses laws for Israel. Iirc, somewhere in those laws, doesn't it state that if a woman is widowed before she has children, her brother in law is supposed to marry her and provide her with children? Even though her husband is dead, it seems to me to be a form of sperm donation. And there was also a social rule or law - I don't know which - whereby Sarai could offer her handmaid to Abraham so that he could have children through her. I'd say that's akin to egg donation and surrogacy. So surrogacy has been allowed by God in the past with his chosen Israel, why would he not allow it today in Canada?

However, you should also live according to your beliefs. If you are heart-set on remaining with your church and denomination, you might want to have them provide counselling for you to provide you with ways of coping with your loss, rather than pursue surrogacy/donation. Others here have suggested adoption as an option, and there are a lot of children who have issues such as FAS in the system who need care. If you want a healthy child as an infant, there are likely waiting lists - I have a friend who works in adoption so i could find out how long the wait lists are...unless you can find one who is through a private lawyer.

The other option is foster care. You could open your home to children who have either lost both parents or who have to be removed from their parents' home due to safety issues. Child welfare is always looking for resource homes. The thing about becoming a resource home is that you should be willing to support the children in getting back together with their parents, and work with them to make that happen. This is a hard job when you have to let them either go back to their parents or go to an adoption home. You could even try this to see if it works for you and if not, move on to another option.

Although I am really glad that the church has helped you and your husband in your marriage, I am really sorry that you are struggling in this way and feeling so torn between what your church says and what your gut says.
 
Upvote 0

Inkachu

Bursting with fruit flavor!
Jan 31, 2008
35,357
4,220
Somewhere between Rivendell and Rohan
✟77,996.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Cerulean -

God is your authority, Father, provider, and guide. Not your priest or your church laws.

The statement that not being able to get pregnant is "killing" and "destroying" you is really worrisome to me. I can totally understand that infertility is difficult, frustrating, and sad, but to act as though it's going to completely wreck your life and your marriage... something else is wrong here, IMHO. If you literally cannot live and function normally without having children (not saying you can't be sad, disappointed, etc) then you need to find professional help. It's one thing to feel hurt or grieved, but it's another altogether to feel like you can't go on or can't live.

I'm also curious why you haven't mentioned the route of adoption? I doubt that your church would have any issue with that? I totally understand the desire to have a child of your own flesh and blood, but it makes me sad to see couples so longing for a child when there are so many beautiful, precious children in need of families already. Just a thought.
 
Upvote 0

Niffer

So...that just happened.
Aug 1, 2008
3,105
384
39
Ontario
✟35,246.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
If you're not comfortable using a donor, or don't want to go against the laws of your church, why not adopt?
Or even foster to adopt?

There are so many children out there who desperately need loving, committed parents. :)

~ Niffer
 
Upvote 0

Inkachu

Bursting with fruit flavor!
Jan 31, 2008
35,357
4,220
Somewhere between Rivendell and Rohan
✟77,996.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I also just realized that you had made a thread about a month ago, about some serious problems going on with you and your husband. How is that situation? Have things improved, and if so, how? If not... I'm seriously baffled as to why you'd want to bring a baby into this home.
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟79,923.00
Country
France
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I also just realized that you had made a thread about a month ago, about some serious problems going on with you and your husband. How is that situation? Have things improved, and if so, how? If not... I'm seriously baffled as to why you'd want to bring a baby into this home.

She did say this in the OP, Inka:

After talking to a priest that isn't our parish priest my husband is doing much better, and our marriage is much better. We are trying so hard to follow Christ and to obey Him.

I don't know what their marital issues were, but maybe you're right that maybe a little breathing room might be in order before committing to a child.
 
Upvote 0

Inkachu

Bursting with fruit flavor!
Jan 31, 2008
35,357
4,220
Somewhere between Rivendell and Rohan
✟77,996.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
She did say this in the OP, Inka:



I don't know what their marital issues were, but maybe you're right that maybe a little breathing room might be in order before committing to a child.

Thanks for pointing that out, Hetta.

I don't want to step all over the OP's proverbial toes, but I remember statements about her husband "forbidding" her to speak to her own priest about their marriage problems, and I remember something about her being kept upstairs in the home, while the husband lived downstairs, and there was lying and sneaking going on (sorry I don't remember the specifics, the OP deleted the post shortly after), and it just didn't sound normal or healthy.

I'd love to hear more from Cerulean about what's been going on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hetta
Upvote 0

ceruleanbutterfly

Junior Member
Jan 19, 2014
65
1
✟22,791.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Wow. I did not expect the passion that some people answered with.

LinkH, we have been trying for almost four years to have a child. We have made a pilgrimage, we have begged and pleaded with God, we have spoken to our priest and had so many Godly people pray for us and over us. We have tried many avenues when it comes to faith. It's not that easy.

johndoo, I am so sorry to hear that you struggle with this also. Thank you for your kind words.

LoveConquers, we are at the point we just aren't sure what God is telling us.

AutumnLeaf, we are planning on being very discreet about it. We plan honestly on telling only my best friend so that if something happens to us our children can be told just in case of medical emergency. We aren't even telling our families.

Hetta, thank you for your kindness.

peckaboo, we looked into embryo adoption and actually were trying to do it but we just can't afford it right not.

ValleyGal, thank you for giving me a lot to think about.

Inkachu, yes my husband and I were/are having serious problems and one of the largest rifts it turns out is that we haven't been able to conceive. Part of the work that he is doing to be a better husband/man/human being is telling the truth and talking about things. It turns out that not being able to complete our family has been tearing him up in ways he wouldn't admit. One thing that has hugely helped us oddly enough is we had a pipe burst and due to the walls collapsing found that there was black mould in the walls and that forced us to have to move. We have been so different since we have been out of there, our health changed over night, and so did a lot of my frustration with the living arrangement. We have a nice neat healthy little two bedroom apartment now, with no mice and no mould! It is lovely. My husband is working really hard at being a better man, to being the man I married almost four years ago. The other big thing that made a difference is he finally told someone else what was going on in our home, he was so ashamed but now that it is in the light of day and he is being held accountable by more than just me he is making great strides.

:) And everybody on the subject of adoption! :) we would love to adopt but it is not in the cards for us at the moment. We are looking into it and are in the process. It is very long and VERY expensive. But we also want a baby. I know my husband can and will happily raise another man's child. We raised our goddaughter until her mother gave her up for an adoption. (We weren't told until it was all over and she was moved half way across the country) He has also helped me in the last 7 years in taking care of my brother and sisters whenever they ran away from home. We both delight in taking care of our teenage goddaughter. Unfortunately we live in different cities due to work and school so that is hard on us.

Yes it is destroying me that I can't have a child. I'm not exaggerating, and yes I have seen someone. I have PTSD and depression and through all of my life my doctors, shrinks, priests, everyone, the one thing that made me feel human, was taking care of children. I raised my brother and sisters until my parents divorced and my mother got custody and wouldn't let me see them. I have dreamed of my own children and how I would raise them up for the glory of God. How I would show them His love and His grace.

I am in therapy and yes I realize that in many peoples eyes (including my family as I have often been told) that makes me unfit to ever be a mother, my therapist disagrees. She is a Christian and she thinks I should go forward trying to have a family. It is just the how that I am having trouble with.

We are waiting right now to find out when my husband can have a surgery that will tell us one way or the other if he can do IVF with me or if we need a donor.

We want to foster as well. We want to do all of the wonderful things so many people have suggested, and we will, as soon as we can. We are waiting to see about home studies so we can foster and/or adopt. But we also want and I need the blessing of an infant. We want to see that tiny little person from the beginning, we want to be able to be parents from conception as well as adoption.

I know for many people this is hard to understand and I thank you for taking the time to try to help. I just want to say that nothing I have ever gone through has been as painful as waiting and only seeing one line when you would give the world to see two. Infertility hurts more than any physical illness ever has, and I have had some doozies!

It is tearing us up that we can't have a family when we see everyone around us being given that privilege. I wish I could explain better but I don't have the words. I wish I could convey the agony of being told you will never see your love manifest in a tiny human being. I wish I could tell you the heartbreak of yet another teenage pregnancy when us as a church going married couple can't. I wish I could show you the crazy person I become when I think that this time it worked! This is our month! And it turns out stress has just made me late and yet another month goes by with no positive pregnancy test. I would like to be able to show you how holding my nieces can change my whole brain chemistry for the better for days. I wish I could make you understand how empty you feel looking at the empty cradle that my grandfather made me knowing that my child will never be in it.

Please don't judge me for this, but adoption is not the same. I need to have my own child. I need to have a baby. I need to make my family complete. I need to give birth to my own child. We have decided we will adopt in the future, we also want to do embryo adoption. But not right now.

Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
CeruleanButterfly,

Being an "illegitimate child" is not the fault of the child, but in the Bible it is not presented as a desirable thing, (and you can do word searches in the KJV for 'bastard' for a few examples, like the passage that says if you are not disciplined, then you are bastards and not sons). Adoption is a noble thing. If a wife's husband can't produce children, adoption makes more sense. Is the pain of childbirth appealing enough to opt for having another man's child? I can understand wanting to give birth to one's own child, but I don't quite get the appeal of doing so if it isn't with one's husband. Your husband will know that the child is another man's seed, and that's got to have an emotional impact.

In the Bible, God granted couples children. Usually it was a story where the woman could not conceive. (Which was obvious if the men in question were polygamous.) Abraham did something similar with Hagar to have a child, but it caused some relationship problems, even though it was his wife's idea to start with. She thought it would be okay with her, but it turned out it wasn't okay with her after the child was born. You can't anticipate how you will feel later, or how your husband will feel. Having a child with another man could have an impact you haven't anticipated, even if he really wants a baby.

Adoption is difficult, I know. It would probably require some money, but you may be able to find some avenue to adopt. Have you tried networking with some pro-life ministries, pregnancy centers who could put you in contact with a mother wanting to put a child up for adoption? It may be possible to avert a waitlist this way. If your husband had a job where he could work abroad for a while, some countries have lots of orphans and do not have the waitlist for their children. If you aren't picky about ethnicity, that may be a possiblity. Still, there is a lot of money involved. I visited an orphanage in Indonesia once about 10 years ago where the woman who ran it said she could help people who wanted to adopt babies. She said when people found out about her orphanage, they would leave babies on the doorstep, and she would work with local officials to get the baby paperwork. A little while later, I saw her face on the cover of a newspaper after being arrested for selling babies. I visited another orphanage that had been opened by a Englishman and his Indonesian wife while I was there. They'd just opened up and didn't have any babies. I'm trying to think if I have I way of finding their contact information. It's been a long time. You could also look up orphanages online on Facebook or websites or contact charities overseas and see if they know an orphanage and try to go direct that way. It may work better to find an organization caring for unwanted babies and have them find an adoption agency to work through rather than to go to an adoption agency and wait in line.

I'm also believing God for you to be healed physically. If I were you, this is something I would continue to pray and believe God about. If you give up after trying several things, that's not the type of faith we read about in the parable of the widow and the unjust judge. In the Bible, several women of God had difficulty bearing children. I know they've diagnosed the issue as your husband. But still the principle applies. On many occasions, God opened barren wombs, and the children had a special role to play. There is Isaac, the children of Rachel. When she was barren and spoke to Jacob, he asked if he were God who opened the womb. There is Hana giving birth to Samuel, and Samson's parents. Consider also the story of John the Baptist.

My wife had a conversation with the mother of a woman from Indonesia whose husband was infertile. She was talking about their desire to find a donor, and my wife felt like she was hinting at me being the donor, since we had three children. (I was obviously fertile.) My wife asked me about it. I rejected the idea. For me, it's would be immoral to purposefully have children that I knew I wouldn't raise. He that will not provide for his own had denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. I can't see encouraging a man to do such a thing, either. It is God who makes opens the womb or closes it. He can make men fertile or infertile. If my wife had been unable to conceive, I'd married her. I'd made the commitment to her already. If God wants to give us children, He gives us children. We are one flesh. We have children together, not with anyone else. If I die, she can marry and have children with someone else if she can and so chooses. If she dies, I can do the same. But we are both alive and we are one flesh.

If my wife had been unable to conceive children, I'd have prayed for her healing. If it took years, I believe I would pray for years and receive what the Lord gives. Adopting orphans is a good, righteous thing to do, of course. But I wouldn't want to have children with someone who is not my wife. Even if you take the sex out of the equation, it's still having children with someone else.

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. The earth is the Lord's and everything in it. If you need $40,000 to adopt a child from Russia (if they are still allowing it), you can believe God to provide that. He can also heal your husband completely. He has healed many people from such things. With men this may be impossible, but with God all things are possible. All things are possible to him that believes.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0