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Thanks, I'll have to check it out.Hello brother. I would invite you to the other thread on this subject, as there I am arguing from a slightly different bent, taking a closer look at Romans 8:12-13 in some of the later posts.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-i-actually-be-saved.8072098/
None of these texts challenge my claim. The first two deal specifically with the Law of Moses, which only applies to Jews, and was set aside at the Cross anyway. So these texts are not relevant to a discussion of whether good works are needed for salvation for the general believer in our time.However, the Bible teaches that if you are going to put your trust in your works (i.e. seek to earn eternal life based on deeds), you had better be perfect in everything you do from conception to eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
I need to clarify; I an perfectly happy to agree that good works are really the evidence of what really saves: faith.Amen, brother. When I hear people preach of works-based salvation I have to wonder what, exactly, they think happened at Calvary.
What “happened” at Calvary is an interesting question whose answer is not as simple as standard evangelical formulas might suggest.Amen, brother. When I hear people preach of works-based salvation I have to wonder what, exactly, they think happened at Calvary.
None of these texts challenge my claim. The first two deal specifically with the Law of Moses, which only applies to Jews, and was set aside at the Cross anyway. So these texts are not relevant to a discussion of whether good works are needed for salvation for the general believer in our time.
And the Matthew text, while an exhortation for perfection, does not say that perfection is required for salvation.
What “happened” at Calvary is an interesting question whose answer is not as simple as standard evangelical formulas might suggest.
All of us have done evil. Romans 3:10-18 and Romans 3:23. None of us have done good. Romans 3:12.I need to clarify; I an perfectly happy to agree that good works are really the evidence of what really saves: faith.
But the works must be there, Paul is crystal clear in Romans 2:6-7 that it will be our deeds that will be the criteria for final judgment, with eternal life on the line.
justbyfaith said in post #137:
If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).
justbyfaith said in post #137:
If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).
justbyfaith said in post #137:
Not only is never an absolute word, so that when it says they shall never perish, it means NEVER, but the quality of the life given is that it is eternal, or everlasting. Such a life can never end.
justbyfaith said in post #147:
None of us have done good. Romans 3:12.
justbyfaith said in post #147:
A man's name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life because his good deeds outweigh his bad . . .
justbyfaith said in post #148:
Galatians 3:10 says, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
No scholar would agree with you - we should not even need to discuss this. It is clear beyond all reason from a wide range of Old and New Testament texts that the Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only.The law of Moses does not only apply to Jews. It defines sin for all of us (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).
Oh please. All I was doing was acknowledging the historical and undeniable truth that, over the centuries, and on into the present day, reasonable people have debated the meaning of the cross. It may well that there is "simplicity" in Christ. But this certainly does not prove that is necessarily easy to arrive at an understanding of what that simplicity entails.2 Corinthians 11:3-4, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, whom ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Some people say it is all God's work and YOU don't do a thing. Some say you have to believe and repent and God will save you. Some say that you have to work out your own salvation. A few say everybody is saved. So how do you get saved and is it all God's work, some your own work, or something else?
There is, of course, a sense in which the Law of Moses captures universal moral principles that apply to al mankind. But certainly the detailed prescriptions of the Law - temple worship, festivals, food laws - were intended by God to be limited to the Jews. More later.The law of Moses does not only apply to Jews. It defines sin for all of us (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).
These things were intended to point forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. They therefore still have application to doctrine in today's studies of the Bible (Matthew 5:17-20). And also, all scripture is inspired of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17).There is, of course, a sense in which the Law of Moses captures universal moral principles that apply to al mankind. But certainly the detailed prescriptions of the Law - temple worship, festivals, food laws - were intended by God to be limited to the Jews. More later.
Paul the apostle--if you count him as being a scholar. St. John the Beloved--if you count him as being authoritative. For they wrote:No scholar would agree with you - we should not even need to discuss this. It is clear beyond all reason from a wide range of Old and New Testament texts that the Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only.
Name one Biblical scholar - and I mean a real scholar with real credentials - who would agree that the Law of Moses was not for Jew only.
Off the top of my head, I can name three scholars who acknowledge the Law of Moses was for the Jews and Jews only: NT Wright, E.P. Sanders, and J.G. Dunn.
I will address the two texts you cited later on - they do not support this idea that the Law of Moses was universal in its scope of application.
The gospel is so simple that a child can understand it; and yet it is so complex that the greatest theologians cannot plumb the depths of what it entails.Oh please. All I was doing was acknowledging the historical and undeniable truth that, over the centuries, and on into the present day, reasonable people have debated the meaning of the cross. It may well that there is "simplicity" in Christ. But this certainly does not prove that is necessarily easy to arrive at an understanding of what that simplicity entails.
Regarding John 10:27-30, it means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).
Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14, it, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
Possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?
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On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).
Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
Any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).
Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.
An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their lives during his future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured and killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).
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Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).
If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).
Not only is never an absolute word, so that when it says they shall never perish, it means NEVER, but the quality of the life given is that it is eternal, or everlasting. Such a life can never end.
Now this is not talking about a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm (Revelation 3:16) faith that is only based on an emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or mental assent to the tenets of the gospel (John 5:39-40), but it is speaking of a heart faith that is both living and saving.
Such a faith will always produce works if given the opportunity (Matthew 7:21); however it is not the works that save (Ephesians 2:9 and context, also Romans 4:5 and context, also Titus 3:4-7); but the living faith.
Again, if I am firmly planted in the ground (good soil) by my roots, I am certain to bear good fruit in the long run. But if I am uprooted and am seeking to bear fruit, I will not be able to, I am cut off from the nourishment that comes from being planted in the ground.
Likewise, all a plant needs to grow and bear fruit is to be planted firmly in good soil. You never see a healthy tree going "AArrrgghhh! I've gotta bear fruit!" No. It bears good fruit because it is a healthy tree that is nourished from the ground (by the doctrines of grace in the word of God).
Regarding John 10:27-30, it means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).
Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14, it, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
Possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?
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On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).
Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
Any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).
Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.
An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their lives during his future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured and killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).
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Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).
Our salvation is based on the merits of Christ alone.But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation
Anybody who thinks they are “ good enough” to merit salvation is damned—- count on it!
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