How do you choose to believe?

[Albion]

I can see that, agree, and try to so denote, but I see postings here and elsewhere which do not seem even to have noticed the distinction.

That's true, of course. All we can do is try to explain whenever we run into any post that shows a misunderstanding of the concept.

 

[Chris B]

Are you saying God can harden the heart in a person so he cannot believe - that God may take away a persons free will?

Go through Romans 9 (well known for this, but hardly on its own) and see how much free-will you can find.

On the other hand clear free-will verses and passages can be found elsewhere.

The free-will /predestination debate has rattled down the centuries.
In one commentary I found "the two concepts are to be held in constructive tension"
(which will serve if and only if it has been absolutely settled that scripture does not contradict itself.)

 

[Chris B]

Chris B,

If God 'hated' Esau, why did God then give Esau, and his tribe, the area of Mount Seir?

I think you'll have to get the answer from someone else.
I know the principle of “no part of Scripture can be so interpreted as to deform the teaching of the whole of Scripture”
Or be read in such a way that it goes counter in sense to another passage of scripture.

But this is only safe if it is absolutely decided that a complete harmony is there to be found.
Otherwise, imposed from the outside, it demands and forces a unity or harmony, by denoting and discarding anything else as illegitimate and false understanding.

I struggled on a variety of passages with this principle for many years. I no longer hold it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you'll have to get the answer from someone else.
I know the principle of “no part of Scripture can be so interpreted as to deform the teaching of the whole of Scripture”
Or be read in such a way that it goes counter in sense to another passage of scripture.

But this is only safe if it is absolutely decided that a complete harmony is there to be found.
Otherwise, imposed from the outside, it demands and forces a unity or harmony, by denoting and discarding anything else as illegitimate and false understanding.

I struggled on a variety of passages with this principle for many years. I no longer hold it.

Ok. Fair enough, Chris.

 

[Received]

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?

A belief cannot simply be a choice of the will, but something must trigger it. What is that trigger and why do not unbeliever get that trigger? (I guess I am saying you need evidence for you beliefs?)

You choose to believe by exposing yourself to arguments of the belief you're open to believing, and (if applicable) acting as if the belief is true.

 

[SkyWriting]

That was a movie starring Tim Allen, wasn't it?

I belief so.

 

[dysert]

Several years ago I had a "crisis of faith". Although I had been a Christian for over 30 years I started to doubt. The doubt lasted a few years, and I got sick of sitting on the fence. I knew I had to make a decision/choice one way or the other and live with it. I couldn't sit on the fence any more. It took a while longer, but I finally chose to "re-believe" in Christ. I still have questions that I likely won't get resolved this side of the grave, but I at least have both feet firmly planted on one side of the fence.

It's a choice alright, and not an easy one.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What it means "here" (in this thread) I don't know. But in Christianity it means that mankind was made to "have it all" but turned against God and forfeited that. Still, God was "good" enough to make it possible for some, at least, of his human creatures to be forgiven their transgressions and have eternal happiness with him anyway.

Incidentally, you said that God can be as evil to his creation as he wants. That isn't what I said and I wouldn't agree that God has been "evil" if he chooses some and doesn't choose others or if he punishes some for their own evilness.

When you say 'mankind turned against god and forfeited it all"...you're referring to the actions of Adam and Eve, right?

I just want to be sure that you're saying everyone has to pay for the actions of one man and woman....

Correct?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Several years ago I had a "crisis of faith". Although I had been a Christian for over 30 years I started to doubt. The doubt lasted a few years, and I got sick of sitting on the fence. I knew I had to make a decision/choice one way or the other and live with it. I couldn't sit on the fence any more. It took a while longer, but I finally chose to "re-believe" in Christ. I still have questions that I likely won't get resolved this side of the grave, but I at least have both feet firmly planted on one side of the fence.

It's a choice alright, and not an easy one.

Did you choose to believe in something...or choose to ignore doubts?

 

[nightflight]

.

 

[dysert]

Did you choose to believe in something...or choose to ignore doubts?

I chose to believe, as is evidenced by my current set of doubts. The doubts just don't rise to the level of affecting my belief.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I chose to believe, as is evidenced by my current set of doubts. The doubts just don't rise to the level of affecting my belief.

I'm not sure what you mean by "evidenced by your doubts."

I only asked because from the description you gave of your dilemma...it sounded like you believed but had doubts that troubled you, and you decided to just ignore the doubts.

Obviously I'm not able to look directly at your thought process. To me though, when someone says they are "on the fence" regarding an issue...it means they saw equal merit in both sides of an issue.

Your issue was believing christianity....right?

Did you see equal merit in the position of disbelief as you did the position of belief?

Or would you say it was more accurately described as "you believed...but had some troubling doubts."?

 

[Chris B]

Different tack: "belief" is something I can retract, or choose to cease to do.
In essence, just about everything I believe is provisional, and though in practice there are many things I do not expect to be overthrown, and that I treat as settled fact for day-to-day purposes, I want in the back of my mind the awareness that (almost) nothing I believe is set in stone, is actually absolute settled truth.
Not having perfect information (neither about the exterior world nor my own internal thought processes) I conclude (as a pretty safe bet) that my decision-making cannot be perfectly reliable. Even if some decisions are attached to binary yes-or-no, in-or-out consequences or actions.

"When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" John Maynard Keynes
Over the years I've had to throw out an awful lot of "everybody knows" ideas embedded unconsciously from growing up in a particular family and culture. And things overtly presented to me as true that turned out not to be, when later doubted and investigated.
Imagine what I might find I ought not to believe, tomorrow.

 

[Albion]

When you say 'mankind turned against god and forfeited it all"...you're referring to the actions of Adam and Eve, right?

Yes.

 

[dysert]

I'm not sure what you mean by "evidenced by your doubts."

I only asked because from the description you gave of your dilemma...it sounded like you believed but had doubts that troubled you, and you decided to just ignore the doubts.

Obviously I'm not able to look directly at your thought process. To me though, when someone says they are "on the fence" regarding an issue...it means they saw equal merit in both sides of an issue.

Your issue was believing christianity....right?

Did you see equal merit in the position of disbelief as you did the position of belief?

Or would you say it was more accurately described as "you believed...but had some troubling doubts."?

I haven't ignored the doubts, I managed to work through them. My issue, more precisely, was believing the Bible 100% (I've always been an inerrantist). Ironically enough, I was writing my Master's thesis on the New Testament promises and came across a few that I couldn't reconcile with my understanding of reality (e.g., if someone has the faith of a mustard seed they'll be able to move mountains). After years of struggle, I finally concluded that my understanding of the Bible in these few instances must be incorrect. (I never have finished my thesis, so I'm still 60 pages short of having that degree :-(.)

I think belief is a complex process. It combines what we've been taught, what we actually know, our emotions, consequences of the belief, and physical & non-physical data. Each of these elements has a weight associated with it, and when they're all mashed together you come up with a belief. I don't know how it all works, but, back to the OP, I do think we all choose to believe.

 

[durangodawood]

I always thought belief is an acknowledgement to yourself of what seems correct. And you cannot force something to seem right or wrong. Facts present themselves to you. You cant reach out and change them, except through your own creativity.

 

[ecco]

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

Nonsense. Most people who are atheists stopped believing by making a free choice based on knowledge. Most people who changed their beliefs as adults from one religion to another, did so by making a free choice.

If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?

Everyone has a choice. However, strong childhood indoctrination into religion makes it difficult.

A belief cannot simply be a choice of the will, but something must trigger it. What is that trigger and why do not unbeliever get that trigger? (I guess I am saying you need evidence for you beliefs?)

You have it backwards. The "trigger" that causes most people to start out as religious is the indoctrination they received from their parents and close relatives in the early stages of their lives. Later, some overcome this early indoctrination as they learn to accept reality.

You may be an exception, but, ask yourself how old you were when you were introduced to religion.

 

[Albion]

Nonsense. Most people who are atheists stopped believing by making a free choice based on knowledge. Most people who changed their beliefs as adults from one religion to another, did so by making a free choice.

It sounds like you missed the point. If a person changes his religion or changes to Atheist, it's not because he decides to go against everything that makes sense to him. On the contrary it's not only a free choice (in theory) but it's because he is compelled to that decision by what has made sense to him.

 

[Dmitri Martila]

I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?

A belief cannot simply be a choice of the will, but something must trigger it. What is that trigger and why do not unbeliever get that trigger? (I guess I am saying you need evidence for you beliefs?)

I was born as mind-full child, thus I was born already as theist. I was theist in my mother's belly.
In Soviet Darwin-istic School my mind was killed by the total madness: atheism. Many years have passed by. I was lucky not to die in the atheism. I was supernaturally healed by Jesus (from atheism, I had no medical cancer), only because my mother has prayed like only loving mother can do. Before that happy day I was accepting no reason. Thank You, Merciful Lord!

 

[Gracchus]

In general, people believe what is comfortable. Some find it hard to live with doubts, or fears. These tend toward religion. Some find it harder to live with cognitive dissonances and absurdities, and these tend away from religion. And many religious people deny that they are religious, so they can have their imaginary cake and eat it too.