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How do you choose to believe?

Can you choose to believe?


  • Total voters
    39

Chriliman

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Based on logic, there's one best choice.
But based on what you want, the number could be anything for any different person.
Thats the danger of making personal desire the primary guide to reality.

Then in order to answer the question of where logic came from the best choice is that it came from a perfect mind that created our fallible minds and allowed us to understand perfect logic for the specific reason of revealing itself as perfect in every way. Do you have a more logical answer as to where logic came from?
 
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durangodawood

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Then in order to answer the question of where logic came from the best choice is that it came from a perfect mind that created our fallible minds and allowed us to understand perfect logic for the specific reason of revealing itself as perfect in every way. Do you have a more logical answer as to where logic came from?
I'm saying desire for a certain outcome or explanation is an inferior guide to reality, compared to simple observation.

OTOH, desire is very powerful (and dangerous) for deciding how to shape reality via the various powers at our disposal.
.
 
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Chriliman

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I'm saying desire for a certain outcome or explanation is an inferior guide to reality, compared to simple observation.

You desire to make simple observations. How is this not extremely dangerous? The answer is that it's not extremely dangerous, we should all desire to make simple observations in order to remain rational in our conclusions.

OTOH, desire is very powerful (and dangerous) for deciding how to shape reality via the various powers at our disposal.
.

I agree desire is very powerful, but not necessarily dangerous. We have to desire to find the truth, which is not dangerous. A desire for truth might be dangerous to your previously held beliefs because it might expose them as false.
 
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Davian

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I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.
If you mean conscious choice, that would be consistent with the modern philosophy of mind. It is my understanding that what we experience as having made conscious decisions is only a narrative constructed by the brain.

From http://www.naturalism.org/metzinger.htm

The unsettling point about modern philosophy of mind and the cognitive neuroscience of will, already apparent even at this early stage, is that a final theory may contradict the way we have been subjectively experiencing ourselves for millennia. There will likely be a conflict between the scientific view of the acting self and the phenomenal narrative, the subjective story our brains tell us about what happens when we decide to act. (p. 127)

From a scientific, third-person perspective, our inner experience of strong autonomy may look increasingly like what it has been all along: an appearance only. (p. 129)


If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?
They can be, but only in a system that is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
A belief cannot simply be a choice of the will, but something must trigger it. What is that trigger and why do not unbeliever get that trigger? (I guess I am saying you need evidence for you beliefs?)
Evidence, perhaps. Something to bypass or negotiate with the critical factor of the brain - the brain process that should save us from the used car salesman's claims or the three-card-monty confidence game on the street. It may be compelling evidence, self-deception, an opportune drug or sleep-deprived state, or happen at a early age when the critical factor process in our brain is less developed.

 
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ecco

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Who has determined that this is not the best way to understand reality? Fallible humans?
You believe it is in your best interests to define truth and then prove to yourself that you have defined it correctly. You can do whatever you want to do in whatever way you want to do it. But you should expect some feedback when you try to justify that approach to others.

You ask if fallible humans have determined that your method is wrong. Keep in mind that you are also just a fallible human and perhaps your method is wrong.

But, realistically, you won't question your methods since you know truth because it says so in the bible ...
John 14:6King James Version (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
...and you know the bible is the truth because the bible says it is the truth.
So, all we need to do is look in the bible to know the truth about everything and lead our lives accordingly.

The bible says good created man. True
The bible says owning and beating slaves is acceptable. True.
The bible says killing the wives and sons of enemy soldiers is good. True

 
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ecco

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Okay, I think understand I why it does not make any sense to you now. I was unclear. You was referring to people in the past and the reason for why they believed in God. Why my comment did not make sense, as I understand it now it, is because you conflate the reason people believe in god today with why people believed in gods in the past.

I did not conflate any thing. I was addressing a post by Chriliman. He was trying to make a case for the reality of god by showing that all early cultures believed in a god:
Chriliman:
This fact is proven by all the isolated tribal people having some form of a concept of God or gods.

I responded:
All this shows is that man, in the absence of real knowledge invented god(s) to explain what was not known to them: Where did we come from, what happens to us when we die. In the absence of real knowledge, this was answered with GodDidIt.




Today people acknowledge it cannot be proven with lightning, earth quakes and deceases that gods exists, instead people postulate that god exist. I did assumed you would have had this modern understanding in mind of why people believe in god today; they want to believe in god, so they postulate that god exist. They choose to believe god exist. And then they confuse themselves that god exist from the conclusions when they see the postulated evidence of god's existences as evidence that god exists.

To the above, I will also respond...that makes no sense.

However, if you want to know my opinion as to why people believe in god(s) today, I will gladly answer. I will at the same time address the question posed in your OP: How do you choose to believe?

Most people believe in god(s) but most of them do not choose. Most people believe in the same god their parents and other close relatives believe in. They are indoctrinated into their beliefs from early childhood. It is all around them 24/7. Their "knowledge of god" becomes just as ingrained as their knowledge of their native language.

By the time they get to an age where they can ask questions, they usually address these questions to people in the same religious circles, their respective priests, pastors, imams, rabbis, whatever.
 
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Chris B

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...a rational person cannot choice what they want to believe. I assume everyone is rational, including believers - and I think all believer would like to agree with me that their beliefs are rational. Why else would they believe?

If I presume I am predestined to type this, or (sans deity) merely programmed, loaded and biased by previous encounters and experiences to produce the same effect, then any real debate or discussion is in fact illusory, whatever it may feel like to the "whatever I am" that thinks it has a power of agency.
In the first case it is a puppet-show, in the second it is the intricate working of a complex but clockwork machine.

It appears that without an assumption of awareness of the possibility of choice humanity as humanity evaporates, is detected as a mirage (ok, what's doing the detecting?). What's left under the spotlight is a creature controlled and guided
..a spider steered by pieces of cardboard until it "chooses" to leave the house..
or an animal playing "stimulus, response, stimulus response..." albeit with a complex net of stimulus and inhibition.

Can one build anything from either of these? if "no", then they are null hypotheses, as possible but as useless for practical purposes as Last Thursdayism, or most ideas based on us actually being a simulation running in a computer. ( a formal case has been made: it's not just by people who have watched The Matrix too often.)

Choice, then.
In a neutral environment with perfect exposure to full information, would human beings all make the same choices?
It would be a virtual experiment because I don't think the conditions can be set up in practice.
We don't get exposed to full information on anything, and what we get comes with a range of cultural, social and linguistic filters, and pre-weighted with local interpretation.
(In the USA, some Republicans and Democrats, even if both Christians, can sound like different species, never mind races, or mere tribes. (at least seen from the UK)
And this is apart from more hard-programmed genetic differences.

And yet the "trolley problems" and similar puzzles of moral choices show a high degree of agreement around the world, (with some interesting variations.)

Oh dear, humans. A mixed tale, once again.
 
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durangodawood

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You desire to make simple observations. How is this not extremely dangerous? The answer is that it's not extremely dangerous, we should all desire to make simple observations in order to remain rational in our conclusions.....
Going "meta" is not always helpful. Like now.
Besides, I didnt say my desire is "to make simple observations". I said observation is my preferred guide to reality.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Then in order to answer the question of where logic came from the best choice is that it came from a perfect mind that created our fallible minds and allowed us to understand perfect logic for the specific reason of revealing itself as perfect in every way. Do you have a more logical answer as to where logic came from?
Your posts are barely intelligible.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I agree desire is very powerful, but not necessarily dangerous. We have to desire to find the truth, which is not dangerous. A desire for truth might be dangerous to your previously held beliefs because it might expose them as false.
But you don't have a desire to find the truth. You have a desire for your god beliefs to be true. As you yourself said, "a desire for truth might be dangerous to your previously held beliefs because it might expose them as false." You don't want your god beliefs exposed as false; you want them to be true.
 
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KCfromNC

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Then in order to answer the question of where logic came from the best choice is that it came from a perfect mind that created our fallible minds and allowed us to understand perfect logic for the specific reason of revealing itself as perfect in every way. Do you have a more logical answer as to where logic came from?

Yes. It was created by humans. We have reasons to believe that they exist and create things, unlike the being you're postulating.
 
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stevenfrancis

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I can make many choices in a lot of things in my life but there is one thing I cannot choose and that is whether I want to believe or not. Nor do I think anyone can stop to believe by a free choice.

If nobody has a choice to believe in a god, how can anyone then be held responsible, i.e. be punished by this god which they don't believe in, for something which their will cannot control?

A belief cannot simply be a choice of the will, but something must trigger it. What is that trigger and why do not unbeliever get that trigger? (I guess I am saying you need evidence for you beliefs?)

Jesus, who is the Son of the Living God wills that we seek him, and reaches out to us. (He Knocks)
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

The Church and individuals pray for all to hear and answer that knock.
1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

Having said this, we are responsible, via free will, being as we are in the image and likeness of God, to recognize Jesus as the only normative way to the Father, and therefore to salvation:
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Salvation is easiest to obtain for the childlike in faith, and the most open :
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; 26 yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. *

But ultimately, it is Jesus who decides who to reveal the Father to:

Matt. 11 (cont) 27* All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

And Jesus encourages us to come to Him, offering rest from our strife, if we but believe:
Matt (cont) 29* Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

If you do answer His call, you are not only welcomed, but you are His family!:

Matthew 12:46* * While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood outside, asking to speak to him. * 48 But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brethren! 50* For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother."

He will continue to pursue us out of His love for us, but eventually, if on seeks salvation, one must acknowledge one's transgressions, and repent of them, (turn away from them).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, * not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
.....
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
 
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Received

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Are you saying that you choose the argument to believe in, and accepts the conclusion from the arguments you believe in?

I mean it in the sense that you choose the level of openness you have to certain arguments. Openness to arguments in general is a matter of ethics (not morality) in the sense that it's part of character, and character is all about habitual choices.
 
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Chriliman

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Yes. It was created by humans. We have reasons to believe that they exist and create things, unlike the being you're postulating.

Did humans really create logic, or is it that humans are capable of being logical? We certainly didn't create our capability of being logical did we? It seems the capability of being logical comes naturally to many people.

It could be said that nature randomly evolved us into beings that are capable of being logical or God created us with the capability of being logical and gave us the will to either exercise logic or not.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Did humans really create logic, or is it that humans are capable of being logical? We certainly didn't create our capability of being logical did we? It seems the capability of being logical comes naturally to many people.

It could be said that nature randomly evolved us into beings that are capable of being logical or God created us with the capability of being logical and gave us the will to either exercise logic or not.

Humans created the "laws of logic". That is obviously not the same as creating logic. Nothing created the laws of logic. They exist as properties of the universe, at least macroscopically.
 
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Chriliman

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Humans created the "laws of logic". That is obviously not the same as creating logic. Nothing created the laws of logic. They exist as properties of the universe, at least macroscopically.

So you agree that whatever makes the universe possible also makes logic possible?

This implies that the universe and logic both came from one source and that source would be the truth.

Or do you prefer the universe and logic to have no definable explanation as to why they exist?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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So you agree that whatever makes the universe possible also makes logic possible?

I don't have any reason to believe there's something that "makes the universe possible".

This implies that the universe and logic both came from one source and that source would be the truth.

Category error. The laws of logic aren't things, they're properties of things. Also, "that source would be the truth" is a pretty meaningless phrase. The source of anything is "the truth". My shoes for example.

Perhaps you meant to say something else.

Or do you prefer the universe and logic to have no definable explanation as to why they exist?

Category error again. And the question "why does the universe exist" may be nonsensical. The "why something rather than nothing" question is only intelligible if the idea of nothing existing is intelligible. I don't see how it could be.
 
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