How do we live "in" the world without being "of" the world

[Coolbutclueless]

Ive been struggling a lot with this lately. I live quite far from the closest parish and so its hard to have community their (though I'm slowly making a few friends). My friends in town live a very different life than me, have very different views. Some are protestant Christians, some are straight up atheist. Generally it doesn't effect our friendships but I feel like I'm constantly surrounded by people I can't relate to. Attitudes towards relationships are different, fornication is seen as something common and perfectly normal/healthy, homosexuality is something to be praised, ect.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not the hyperdox guy screaming "they all going to hell" or anything like that. If you me tme on the street you wouldn't peg me for very religious by how I look or my mannerisms or anything. I've got my own flaws, and these are friends who I truly value friendships with. But I can never really shake the feeling of being somewhat alien. For example around 6 months ago I went out with them and we went to a bar in town. I had a little (ok a lot) to much to drink (like I said, i'm not perfect), and I remember trying to have fun. I danced(ish), I listened to the music, but I never felt what they felt. Even absolutely wasted it felt pointless. Their were cute women but I didn't talk to any, I didn't dance with any except a friend. Part of me wished I could let loose like them, and just have fun. Nothing wrong with having a few drinks and dancing, but I can't let go and enjoy it. Part of me doesn't want to, cause I'm not going to find what I want there either. I remember just having a moment where I stopped trying to enjoy it, I stood their, and I realized I wasn't going to find what I wanted their. Everywhere I looked people were having fun, friends were dancing, and I felt unconnected to all of them. So I went and got a ride home and left. Honestly it was a surprisingly sober thought considering I couldn't walk a straight line. its not an experience I want to repeat.

The only time I don't feel alien is at church, we may live different lives but we have communion with each other and it feels like family(or at least extended family).

But day in day out, sometimes I want to scream, because I can't have those close relationships I desire, i can't just chat up a woman at the bar and have a flirty conversation. Firstly because I just don't know how(to approach, I have no problems actually speaking to women), and secondly because I don't think im going to find what I'm looking for there, most of them are people like my friends. Good valuable people , but people who could never be more than friends due to our beliefs.

I guess I'm saying. I don't know what I want. I mean i know I want God, his church, and companionship. I don't know how to find relationships with other people where I am that go deeper. The more i try to find God, the more I try to pray the more isolated I feel from the world, the more alone I feel in my struggles. Any advice friends have for me arn't things I really want to do. (EX: One friend told me she would help me get better with women, but I don't think I want to casually talk women up at a bar would be healthy for me.)

(I posted this question on another website, and below is a relevant response I had to someone who replied)


"Some practical advice is perhaps joining some church groups, meetup group or other social activities where you are likely to meet like minded people."

I'm trying to be more active. But I drive several towns away to get to my parish (which is the closest one to me). It puts me in a weird place in my town because all the social groups which share my values on the more "controversial" issues are attached to churches, many of which view me as being a heretic for being orthodox.

Its not that those issues are the problem. I'm not exactly talking about homosexuality much in my day to day life, like, it comes up maybe once a month or something and even then its generally just a passing comment I hear. Its the fact that underlying beliefs and premises that those beliefs are based on are different and that those underlying differences show themselves in a huge number of minor ways throughout the day. I can never really feel at ease because honestly, I'm a sensitive person. Its easy for me to get my feelings hurt, I know how to mask it and not let it show because its not socially acceptable (and much of the time its silly and shouldn't be bothering me). It feel like all day every day I'm the bad guy. Turn on the tv, people who believe what I believe are horrible bigots, go to class(College) and its just taken as fact that anyone who believes what I believe is unintelligent/insecure/ect. Holding to christian values get you demonized really quick, I don't draw attention to it but I can't help but feel that isolation.

It would be amazing to have people in my life who i regularly saw who I felt like I didn't have to guard my every word with so as to not draw at best side glances and at worst pure hate.

 

[ArmyMatt]

all I can say is go about your day to day, forgive and seek forgiveness, and really know that God is in charge. He knows who to bring in your life and when.

 

[bèlla]

My conviction is simple. I’m conforming to God. Pleasing Him is a must. Living as He instructs is my path.

I devoted my time to knowing Him and immersing myself in His presence. This took several years. Freeing myself from outside influences and pressures deepened my root.

I can adapt to different environments, persons, and dialogues because the core is intact and I’m looking within and not without. He brings what’s lacking and I bear up until He does.

But conforming for the sake of acceptance or validation is not appropriate. I gave up my companions and allowed the Lord to determine if He’d resurrect them or bring others.

You can fill that void with things, people, or more of Him. I chose the latter and the harvest is plentiful. You develop a certainty, dependency, and resounding peace over time.

Turning to the television, activities, and others is worsening your condition. Have you ever considered your aloneness may be God’s doing? Is it possible He wants more of you; not less?

It sounds like emptying is the solution. Turn off the television and start talking to God. Make Him your confidant. He speaks constantly if we’re willing to engage. Your heart will heal if you do and He’ll restore you to a better place.

There is a biblical precedent to this:

But when he who had setme apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visitCephas and remained with him fifteen days. —Galatians 1:15-18

 

[Coolbutclueless]

all I can say is go about your day to day, forgive and seek forgiveness, and really know that God is in charge. He knows who to bring in your life and when.

This is what Ive been trying to do but I think my unease/confusion/whatever is in the detail.

Take for example, dancing. I went out with friends, drank to much (which was a sin) and listened to some music and danced (not a sin). The idea of dancing appeals to me, and if I hadn't been so hammered I might have enjoyed it, I did enjoy being silly and dancing with a friend.

That said, what are my motives in that? I mean if I dance I want to dance primary with women. Keep in mind I'm not talking about sexualized dancing here. There wasn't grinding or sensual moves.i enjoyed it , it was fun, but the rest of the experience not so much. In many ways, I would like to try that again, except with a clear head. Have a few drinks but not get drunk, learn to better talk to people, introduce myself, dance just for the fun of it, dance with women just for the fun of it. In many ways I think it would be healthy growth for me. My life is (honestly) pretty boring, and most of the people I respect (spiritual orthodox people even) have a lightness to them that i don't have. I can't "let go", i'm a serous person, and it would do me good to have lighthearted (innocent) fun.

That said, I Don't know if it would be wise of me. I have struggles with lust, my part of my motivation for wanting to dance is I want to interact with women, I want to flirt, I'm BAD at it and the only way you get better at approaching women is to (gasp) approach women. I can talk to women fine but anything along the lines of approaching or showing interest I'm horrible at and I won't get better without doing it. So that a motivation. And here is the thing, Its not sin. Dancing like I'm thinking of isn't sin, talking with a woman isn't sin, flirting isn't a sin, but for me will those thing be healthy? I Don't know, It might be unhealthy but it might be more unhealthy for me to NOT to put myself out there. Where I live there are basically no orthodox people, which means I don't really want to pursue anyone, which makes me think "Well do I really want to put myself out there at all". But If I only approach orthodox women its going to take a while to be comfortable at it since Ive seen like 3 in my entire time orthodox.

This entire mindset, is what I"m struggling with. I'm serious, I'm a very serious person, a very intense person, and I wonder if I'm to intense, to serious. This is how I think about something as innocent as hanging out with friends and having a dance. Thats not a huge thing, but in my mind I discect it over and over anyalizing my ever motive, my motive for my motive, trying to figure out if its going to be harmful or helpful. I don't know.

I'm not a monk,nor do I think I ever will be. I'm not called to deep solitude, or giving up everything. I live in the world, I have to work a job, interact with others , and all sorts of stuff. I don't know where to draw the line. I don't belive in the "spiritual" and "secular" divide. Life is life and my spiritual life and the life I live in the world are one and the same.

Turning to the television, activities, and others is worsening your condition. Have you ever considered your aloneness may be God’s doing? Is it possible He wants more of you; not less?

I'm doing much less of those things then ever before in my life. My prayer life is growing and I'm seeking God more and more. Enough that I had a very real talk with my priest recently because I needed his opinion on if i was doing to much. Push yourself to hard and you burn out. The spiritual life is a marathon, not a sprint.

I made a mistake that night in regards to my drinking and some attitudes I had. It was a very hard weekend (that weekend a year prior had a lot of memories and i felt very raw). I went at it wrong, I tried to drown my demon only to realize they could swim. I need to work on certain areas of my life, especially my social life, but I don't know how to do it in the context of growing towards God. But please don't assume that just because I'm having struggles that I'm not seeking God. More and more I find myself sitting in quite prayer or praying a hymn. I watch less tv and instead read spiritual books. I want to know God and I'm seeking him, but to do so I can't forsake the world either and I can't have an unrealistic expectation of myself. I'm not a monk, I can't live like a monk.

 

[ArmyMatt]

this is something to tell your confessor and spiritual father.

 

[eleos1954]

Ive been struggling a lot with this lately. I live quite far from the closest parish and so its hard to have community their (though I'm slowly making a few friends). My friends in town live a very different life than me, have very different views. Some are protestant Christians, some are straight up atheist. Generally it doesn't effect our friendships but I feel like I'm constantly surrounded by people I can't relate to. Attitudes towards relationships are different, fornication is seen as something common and perfectly normal/healthy, homosexuality is something to be praised, ect.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not the hyperdox guy screaming "they all going to hell" or anything like that. If you me tme on the street you wouldn't peg me for very religious by how I look or my mannerisms or anything. I've got my own flaws, and these are friends who I truly value friendships with. But I can never really shake the feeling of being somewhat alien. For example around 6 months ago I went out with them and we went to a bar in town. I had a little (ok a lot) to much to drink (like I said, i'm not perfect), and I remember trying to have fun. I danced(ish), I listened to the music, but I never felt what they felt. Even absolutely wasted it felt pointless. Their were cute women but I didn't talk to any, I didn't dance with any except a friend. Part of me wished I could let loose like them, and just have fun. Nothing wrong with having a few drinks and dancing, but I can't let go and enjoy it. Part of me doesn't want to, cause I'm not going to find what I want there either. I remember just having a moment where I stopped trying to enjoy it, I stood their, and I realized I wasn't going to find what I wanted their. Everywhere I looked people were having fun, friends were dancing, and I felt unconnected to all of them. So I went and got a ride home and left. Honestly it was a surprisingly sober thought considering I couldn't walk a straight line. its not an experience I want to repeat.

The only time I don't feel alien is at church, we may live different lives but we have communion with each other and it feels like family(or at least extended family).

But day in day out, sometimes I want to scream, because I can't have those close relationships I desire, i can't just chat up a woman at the bar and have a flirty conversation. Firstly because I just don't know how(to approach, I have no problems actually speaking to women), and secondly because I don't think im going to find what I'm looking for there, most of them are people like my friends. Good valuable people , but people who could never be more than friends due to our beliefs.

I guess I'm saying. I don't know what I want. I mean i know I want God, his church, and companionship. I don't know how to find relationships with other people where I am that go deeper. The more i try to find God, the more I try to pray the more isolated I feel from the world, the more alone I feel in my struggles. Any advice friends have for me arn't things I really want to do. (EX: One friend told me she would help me get better with women, but I don't think I want to casually talk women up at a bar would be healthy for me.)

(I posted this question on another website, and below is a relevant response I had to someone who replied)


"Some practical advice is perhaps joining some church groups, meetup group or other social activities where you are likely to meet like minded people."

I'm trying to be more active. But I drive several towns away to get to my parish (which is the closest one to me). It puts me in a weird place in my town because all the social groups which share my values on the more "controversial" issues are attached to churches, many of which view me as being a heretic for being orthodox.

Its not that those issues are the problem. I'm not exactly talking about homosexuality much in my day to day life, like, it comes up maybe once a month or something and even then its generally just a passing comment I hear. Its the fact that underlying beliefs and premises that those beliefs are based on are different and that those underlying differences show themselves in a huge number of minor ways throughout the day. I can never really feel at ease because honestly, I'm a sensitive person. Its easy for me to get my feelings hurt, I know how to mask it and not let it show because its not socially acceptable (and much of the time its silly and shouldn't be bothering me). It feel like all day every day I'm the bad guy. Turn on the tv, people who believe what I believe are horrible bigots, go to class(College) and its just taken as fact that anyone who believes what I believe is unintelligent/insecure/ect. Holding to christian values get you demonized really quick, I don't draw attention to it but I can't help but feel that isolation.

It would be amazing to have people in my life who i regularly saw who I felt like I didn't have to guard my every word with so as to not draw at best side glances and at worst pure hate.

If any relationship(s) are drawing you away from God then it's not a good relationship to have and then should be limited or eliminated.

1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

 

[bèlla]

@Coolbutclueless

I'm not a monk, nor do I think I ever will be. I'm not called to deep solitude, or giving up everything.

I don’t recall anyone mentioning those things. You posed a question and should expect varied approaches in the response. That doesn’t mean you have to adhere to their advice.

For me, three years was nothing in light of everything I’ve gained. I received healing, my calling, gifts, and a deepening of my faith. It has served me well and enabled me to pursue my purpose and help others.

I think @ArmyMatt said it best. This question may be better served by your spiritual advisor. Good luck.

 

[Coolbutclueless]

this is something to tell your confessor and spiritual father.

its something we have touched on when we talked, I'm planning to talk with him more about it in the near future.

If any relationship(s) are drawing you away from God then it's not a good relationship to have and then should be limited or eliminated.

1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

I'm not really speaking about things that are drawing me away from God, at least not overtly. In many ways School is drawing me away from God, I have to attend to my classes rather than to prayer. Ideally I would be able to hold both concepts together at the same time but thats something I struggle with. Its the same thing in regards to what I'm talking about in regards to interpersonal relationships. I'm not Sure where the line is drawn. I'm not sure when "fun" becames sinful. There is a place for enjoyment in Gods world, but my struggle is with where the line is drawn, because its blurry. There is nothing wrong with eating a cookie and enjoying it, but at some point the enjoyment of cookies CAN become sinful, like most things in excess.

I'm struggling to find balance.

 

[ArmyMatt]

its something we have touched on when we talked, I'm planning to talk with him more about it in the near future.

good, he's the best to talk to.

 

[Antoni]

good, he's the best to talk to.

This. You should schedule a time to speak with your priest.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I don't know, maybe it's fate you posted this, and it's something that I've brought up with my old priest (before I moved), which there wasn't an answer to but "give it time, it'll work out," but I was feeling similar to you today, and it's a feeling I've felt for a while.

Especially because I've moved to the East Coast, where ideological evil is so, way more persistent than the Midwest, away from a couple of friends that I was close to, on top of way more stress than usual that I've still not gotten used to or managed too effectively, I feel alone.

I don't know. There are so many aspects of American culture that are so alienating to me - our "pleasure" culture - getting drunk on the weekends, getting a girlfriend just to have someone to have sex with, following Mill's harm principle pretty strictly (allow people to do whatever they want as long as their actions don't directly impact another person), being obsessed with Social Media, and, above ALL OF THIS, is this necessity to give off the impression of happiness and smiling and "hahaha, that's so funny XD XD XD," which I don't get.

Why is getting drunk fun? Seriously, I've admittedly gotten drunk twice - one accidentally and one on purpose - you feel disoriented and things are way funnier. So what? Is it worth one's own mental, physical, and spiritual deterioration? And really, I can't stand people who are drunk - they annoy the living crap out of me; it's not funny, it's just stupid the way people act. Is it worth risking alcoholism, which runs in my family? Same with sex! Sure, it feels good, but it impacts your psychology and perception - I've seen this first hand with people around me - on how close you are, and can lead to very harmful emotional and mental problems for periods of time; that's not to mention the risk of pregnancy, STDs, etc., even with contraception. So, is a small period of time really worth these consequences?

Who the hell cares about my life? Is my life THAT INTERESTING that I HAVE TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE LOOK AT MY FACE, LOOK AT WHAT IM DOING EVERY MOMENT AND EVERY SECOND OF MY LIFE? TO STOP WHAT I'M DOING TO TAKE A PICTURE OF MY FACE? Why should I care about someone else's experiences in terms of above-average experiences? Oh WOW, YOU ATE A STEAK AT A SLIGHTLY EXPENSIVE RESTAURANT. WOW!!! I WISH MY LIFE WAS THAT EXCITING! Why should I have all these privacy risks ("Hey everybody, I'm going on vacation with my family, meaning nobody's going to be at home for these three days! Hopefully, nobody robs my house!")

And why do people need to give off the impression that they are happy when they are not? You can easily tell when someone is faking it or not, so what's the point? And if you converse long enough, all that happens is that it's revealed that you aren't happy through an inability to keep up your fake mannerism and emotions, or through conversations which frankly aren't happy.

I don't know. Maybe I'm autistic. I seriously question that sometimes; when I was little, I used to be scared of mascots and clowns, and my parents thought it was so bizarre that they got me tested, and they found I wasn't on the Spectrum whatsoever. And I've taken several tests online (which isn't helpful, I know) to see where I'm placed, and I'm always outside the Spectrum. But I don't know; the fact that I just don't like the social norms of the North of our country (different norms for the South), and refuse to like them or try to like them, and I love very specific and repetitive things (Who the hell likes Russian culture and language? Who the hell enjoys learning 15th century Spain? Who the hell enjoys reading Saint Alphonsus Liguori's history of the heresies from the first century onward?).

I also just tell people how I feel. Of course, when I know I'm going to be offensive or shocking, I hold it in (I'm not going to tell everyone in the wrong context about my sins), but if I'm stressed, I'll tell someone - I'm stressed. Want an opinion on something? Here's this. I'm just an open book for anybody to read.

I've talked to my Priest, and because he's evidently self-aware of my own self-perceptions, he basically tells me that I'm normal repeatedly over and over again; that a lot of times some psychological illnesses like depression aren't actually illnesses, just that people have a different but realistic view of the world than most people; that for someone my age, I'm just very mature compared to the average joe my age.

But I don't know. I feel like I suffer from Miniver Cheevy syndrome - maybe if I was born during the 13th century or something, I would fit in better in society. I obviously don't fit in here. And I'm alone here.

 

[Lukaris]

It is hard when you feel you cannot “fit in”. I have never been able to either and remained socially adrift through my 20s & 30s. Thankfully, although a sinner, my missteps didn’t impact others much. Thankfully, my lost faith was renewed when I turned 40 and eventually became Orthodox & try to stick to the basic faith the Lord tells us to keep in Matthew 6:1-18. This has sustained me through my 40s & now to my 50s (I still struggle spiritually with sin).

Surely I hope you will not be alienated & will have friends, eventual marriage, family etc. St. John lays out how we must balance love of neighbor but not of the world in his first Epistle ( see: 1 John 2).

 

[JohnTh]

But I don't know. I feel like I suffer from Miniver Cheevy syndrome - maybe if I was born during the 13th century or something, I would fit in better in society. I obviously don't fit in here. And I'm alone here.

I think that you and, generally speaking, in this thread there are some which concentrate too much on some social aspects. Yes, I know it can be very tough but concentrating on them, will NOT solve the problem. In fact, the problems aren't solved thinking about them.

We need to concentrate on Christ, pray, and cooperate with Him in order to solve our problems. However this needs time so we need to have patience.

I know that it needs a lot of patience but in a final analysis only God can enter inside us - only God can pass over the abyss of our singularity created by sin.

and listened to some music and danced (not a sin)

Hmmm... It depends. Sin is a force of distortion which distracts us from our path. Of course, many times we apply the oikonomia (approx. "a merciful treatment") because we cannot withstand a higher existential plane.
However I think that you can do more. You are most probably a Class 3 Universal Soldier.

So, pray, have patience and the simplicity of hope.

Do not try to mix somewhere in society if you will not fit. Try it but not too hard. I told you on "the other site" that the feeling of the emptiness of this world is from God. This helps you to get closer to Him, but the evil one is mixing in to darken your mind.