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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

How do we know . . . .

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Mathetes the kerux

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*Cough*

[bible]1 timothy 3:15[/bible]
*cough, cough*

not the truth . . . but the platform FOR the truth . . . WHO IS CHRIST . . . and sorry chief but the bride and the bridegroom are not the same.
 
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racer

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auto (him/her/his own) graphe (writing) . . . IOW what was written by the author (or dictated through amanuensis) ORIGINALLY . . . IOW NOT a copy.
So, you are saying that since what Jesus taught verbally was not written and copied verbatim, there are errors in the various Scriptural translations--that a certain amount of truth is lost?
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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One only has to remember that the Apostles are the 'foundation' of the Church and Jesus talked of the houses built on different foundations for you to realise this.
Bad scriptural cross reference . . . not even the same context . . .
 
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Rick Otto

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These arguments are so fruitless. Nothing can be proved here, except our own vanity. I am not exempt from this. Christ said we will know the truth by our love for one another. Let it be so.

Love,
Christina
I don't agree, sis. Sometimes on the basketball team, your own team-mates step on your foot or elbow you.
Ya just have to remember we're on the same team, at least by forum definition. I'm learning a lot & getting a lot off my chest while getting to know (a little) some people who share my concerns if not my opinions.:thumbsup:
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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So, you are saying that since what Jesus taught verbally was not written and copied verbatim, there are errors in the various Scriptural translations--that a certain amount of truth is lost?
No . . . I am saying that the letters and Gospels and such were inspired by the Spirit to the authors that penned them . . . not one scripture asserts that the copies of the originals would be carried along by the Spirit in the same way . . . the inspiration (in the sense of inerrancy/infallability) does not carry over to the hundreds of thousands of people who choose to pick up a pen (or quill, or whatever) and ink.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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For the purposes of this argument that is irrelevant.

There was one church then. Which church is the rightful church NOW is irrelevant.


By compiling it, they did create it. You lose points for trying to create a distinction that doesn't exist in that context

By the fact that they concluded which books to contain within it. They chose the books. The books didn't choose them.

If I appoint you to a job I must have 'authority' in order to do so.

That's the way a heirarchy works. You seem to think that the book being created was authorising them to do that to it.


No. I act like that's all you read



Look at the examples in the NT when someone converts there's a laying on of hands by those in charge. Through them the Holy Spirit comes.
No Apostle in Acts 9 . . . no laying on of hands in Acts 10 . . .
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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There are many references to 'truth', such as Jesus saying "I am the way, the truth and the light"

And he said to Peter, and thence to the other Apostles that he will found the church on them (the rock), and they're the foundation. If you think that the church they founded is not 'the truth', of which they are it's 'foundation' - which is the truth then you've a strange creation.

We know the tree by the fruit it bears.

IF the church is founded on the Apostles (and their truthful teachings) it must be 'the truth'.
There are many references to 'truth', such as Jesus saying "I am the way, the truth and the light"

See here is where you are DEAD wrong . . .

6λεγει αυτω ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου

that is the feminine definite article . . . Jesus is THE truth . . . there IS NO OTHER. Period. The Church is the foundation upon which the truth of Christ is presented to the world . . . the Apostles and the church are not THE truth. Sorry
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Racer's view of church is that it is not 'true' even though its foundations are?

Is that correct a summary?
What is "true" and what is "THE Truth" are two different issues.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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So inventing a new church was better?;)
Luther didn't really want to split . . . but people don't ike to give up power or staid habits that they are convinced are right.
 
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racer

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Anyway, how do you know? Well, if it is a false gospel it will eventually lose it's luster, because it will ultimately not produce any good fruit in you. For me, I went to church every week and got absolutely nothing out of it. So, with the lack of truth around, I eventually left.
First, I just want to thank you for taking the time to write out a sincere, thoughtful, and genuine response! :hug:

Though, you and I will disagree on many things I do appreciate non-judgmental honesty.

My point is this, we would not have been warned against "false Gospels" if God did not expect us to be able to recognize a false Gospel. Would could not do that if we did not have some type of tool, or measure as someone else defined "canon" for us, to check what we are taught against. That tool is Scripture, and if God did not expect that the laity could read Scripture and then identify if what was being taught was a true Gospel, He would not have commanded that directions. :) :wave:
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Are we partaking of The body and blood of our Lord or not?

It is not merely symbolic. It has effect.

Forgive me...
I believe it has effect, it is certainly a means of grace . . . but I see no warrant in the texts to assert that there is a supernatural changing of the consecrated bread into the literal body of Christ . . . the Apostles didn't gag when they ate at the table . . . something surely one would have done had it changed in his mouth.

Further, Jesus' own statements about His body being eaten in John are clearly figurative.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I believe it has effect, it is certainly a means of grace . . . but I see no warrant in the texts to assert that there is a supernatural changing of the consecrated bread into the literal body of Christ . . . the Apostles didn't gag when they ate at the table . . . something surely one would have done had it changed in his mouth.

Further, Jesus' own statements about His body being eaten in John are clearly figurative.

The Orthodox do not ascribe to a physical change, never the less, the change is real.

Forgive me...
 
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Asinner

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All use the scriptures to measure tho, all with varying interps.
And, I've told them before, my sister alone in a dark jail cell and a bible beckoning her, inspired her to seek answers and find God--and she has never looked back . . .:|

First, I just want to thank you for taking the time to write out a sincere, thoughtful, and genuine response! :hug:

Though, you and I will disagree on many things I do appreciate non-judgmental honesty.

My point is this, we would not have been warned against "false Gospels" if God did not expect us to be able to recognize a false Gospel. Would could not do that if we did not have some type of tool, or measure as someone else defined "canon" for us, to check what we are taught against. That tool is Scripture, and if God did not expect that the laity could read Scripture and then identify if what was being taught was a true Gospel, He would not have commanded that directions. :) :wave:
 
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racer

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You have the offices of deacon, priest and bishop in the NT and Paul telling the Hebrews to obey their elders.

Do you think that ended when the Book of Acts finishes?

Why would Jesus appoint a select few and instruct them, and they would then choose others, and then, guided by the Holy Spirit they go out to teach, and then suddenly it stops?
Why do we have teachers in schools when we have textbooks to tell us what to do? I'll say it again, nobody denies the "teaching authority" of the church.
 
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