How do we know . . . .

[racer]

Still Protestants seem to have a basic problem with the understanding

"All Scripture is inspired by God"

with

"All of God's inspired (message) is in Scripture"

There you go twisting God's very words. How do you do that and not feel the heat rising up on your behind?

II Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It specifically says that all "scripture" is given by inspiration of God. It does not say that Jesus delivered an inspired message to all of the apostles, part of that "inspired message" is scripture. How do you in all seriousness so brazenly twist God's word and expect anyone to take you seriously?

So, clearly, it's not the Protestants who have a problem reading what Scripture says.

I go back to where Paul himself wrote to a church to keep to the traditions he had taught them by both Epistle and word of mouth.

There you go twisting God's words again! That's not what Scripture says.

II Thes 2:15; Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul is speaking about how they were taught some heard the Gospel (probably most due to illiteracy) and some also, read the Gospel. Paul is saying, no matter how you have received this message, hold to it, follow it . . .there is a distinction between whether/or versus both/and.

Let me refer you to acts:


Acts 15:23; And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

Paul saw them of equal value.

Like I said, read it again with your blinders removed.

Protestants do not.

And Rightly so.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I know you are not RC . . . I am just trying to flesh out what you mean by eucharist . . . the basic good of the grace in the celebration of the Lord's supper . . . or some theological specified articulation.

Are we partaking of The body and blood of our Lord or not?

It is not merely symbolic. It has effect.

Forgive me...

 

[racer]

Obviously the latter is WRONG.

Yep! I'll have to agree with you there. All either of you have to do is crack open your Bible to know that it is obviously wrong.

 

[racer]

That is because we see RCC and EOC and OOC as being One Church... CATHOLIC.

Maybe you guys should cut back on the communal wine . . .

 

[racer]

HOW DO WE KNOW ....

who is the SS ???

List of Denominations and Sects:​

1- LUTHERANS: Martin Luther, Germany, 1517.
2- ANABAPTISTS, (after Zwingli), 1519.
- Brethren in Christ, German Switzerland.
- Hutterine Brethren.
- Mennonites, to Pennsylvania, in 1653.
- German Baptists, Dunkards, to USA, 1723.
- German Moravians, who became the "United Brethren Church", in 1735.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, in England and Holland, came to America as the Pilgrim fathers on the "Mayflower" (repudiated the title of Anabaptists, as they did the "Baptists").
- The Amish, to Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa.
- The Baptists in USA (repudiated the title).
3- CHURCH OF ENGLAND, Henry VIII, 1534.
- Episcopalians, England and America.
- Methodists (split with the Ch. of England).
- Evangelicalism, England and America.
4- CALVINISTS, after Calvin, 1536. Switzerland
- Presbyterians, Scotland and America.
- Dutch Reformed Church, Holland.
- Huguenots, France.
- Puritans, England and America.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, with many Calvinist tenets.
5- PIETISTS, after Fox, 1654.
- Quakers, "Society of Friends", England, 1654
- Shakers, "Union Society", England, 1741.
- Moravians, Germany, 1727.
- Pentecostals, USA, 1900
- Charismatics, USA, 1900.
- Fundamentalists, USA, 1900.
6- MILLENNIALISM, after Miller, 1818.
- Seventh-day Adventists, USA, 1818.
- Seventh-day Baptists.
- Worldwide Church of God, USA, 1934.
- Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, 1809
7- CHRISTIANS WITHOUT CHRIST:
With or without Millennialism... For them, Jesus Christ is not God:
- Mormons, USA, 1829.
- Jehovah's Witnesses, USA, 1852.
- Christian Science, USA, 1879.
- Moonies, Korea and USA, 1936.
- Scientology, USA, 1954.
- Children of God, USA, 1969.
- Unitarian- Universalist, England, 1774,
- Transcendentalism (Kant), USA, 1800.
- Unity School of Christianity, USA, 1889.
- Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong).
- Spiritualism, USA
- The Way International, USA, 1957.
- Church Universal and Triumphant, 1958.
- The Holy Order of MANS, USA.
And others:
- Church of the Living Word, USA.
- Crossroads Church, England, USA.
- United Christian... Rev. Ike, USA
- Penitents, USA.
- Snake Handlers, 1909, USA.
- Homosexual Churches, 1868, USA.
- Branch Davidians. "Waco", USA.
- People's Temple. "Guayana", USA
- The Jamalians, USA, 1975.
- Gnosticism.

FOUNDERS AND WORLD "MEMBERSHIP"
1457- United Brethren (Moravians): Huss.
1517- Lutherans: Martin Luther- 75 million.
1519- Anabaptists: Grebel (after Ulrich Zwingli).
1534- Church of England: Henry VIII- 70 m.
1536- Calvinism: John Calvin-
1560- Presbyterians: J. Knox (Calvin)- 35 m.
1570- Puritans: T. Cartwright.
1582- Congregationalism: R. Brown.
1605- Baptists: John Smith (Zwingli)- 45 million
1620- Episcopalians: S. Seabury (Henry VIII)- 3m
1654- Quakers: Fox- 0.2 million.
1741- Shakers: Ann Lee- 0.03 million.
1744- Methodists: J and C. Wesley- 29 million.
1774- Unitarians: T. Lindsay.
1800- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)- 2m.
1830- Mormons: Joseph Smith- 7 million.
1846- Adventists: W. Miller- 5 million.
1852- Jehovah's Witnesses: C.Russel- 3 million.
1865- Salvation Army: M. Jones- 1 million.
1879- Christian Science: Mary Baker- 1 million.
1900- Pentecostals: C.F. Parham- 58 million.
1934- Worldwide Ch. of God: Armstrong- .05.
1954- Moonies: Sun M. Moon- 2 million.
1957- United Church of Christ- 2 million.
1969- Children of God: David "Mo" Berg- .008.

I may have missed them, but it appears you left off RCism and Orthodoxy.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Maybe you guys should cut back on the communal wine . . .

The wine becomes the blood of Christ and we can probably never have enough of that.

 

[Rick Otto]

There are many references to 'truth', such as Jesus saying "I am the way, the truth and the light"

And he said to Peter, and thence to the other Apostles that he will found the church on them (the rock), and they're the foundation. If you think that the church they founded is not 'the truth', of which they are it's 'foundation' - which is the truth then you've a strange creation.

We know the tree by the fruit it bears.

IF the church is founded on the Apostles (and their truthful teachings) it must be 'the truth'.

You are horribly equating different nouns in a way that obliterates their defining distinctions.
You use an emotional tactic of heretical implication ("If you think~") to deliver this inefficient equation ("the church is (not) 'the truth'~")

That is confusion.
Pillars & foundations serve the truth, they are not the truth.
The fact of their existence is a truth that resonates with other truths the pillar & foundation serve.
Being the foundation & pillar is not being the truth, it is serving truth.
Jesus being The Truth is an elegant expression of fact.
To say the church is the truth is obtuse because it is only the truth in the very narrow sense that it is what it is, which is true of all that is.(The Bishop is the truth. Baptism is the truth, etc., etc.)
The distinction between the church & the truth it serves is as important as the distinction between the head & the body, otherwise you have lower body parts acting like the head.
-Just a post card from my own little world.

 

[racer]

I could not care less if you like the form or not.

The Truth is still the truth.

Forgive me...

Yep, truth is truth and the truth is your method of argumentation for the authority of your church is "circular."

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yep, truth is truth and the truth is your method of argumentation for the authority of your church is "circular."

I'm sorry you have a problem with the authority that Christ left to his Apostles and his Church.

Forgive me...

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

But UB tell me truly do you believe any of us (in all honesty) are we saved? I have been told by many Protestants that I am not since I am a idol worshiper... I am not saved... Don't you think that the 'judgment' is on your side too ??

Many ignorant and arrogant Protestants. This is where the issue of essentials verse non-essentials (or as you seem to favor . . . the kerygma vs non kerygma elements of the faith) comes in.

Are you saved? Sure . . . you seem to have a passion for Christ and knowledge of a relationship with Him . . . but there are hypocrites as much in both camps . . . false bretheren and people who do not treasure Christ.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Which is in defiance of Jesus who said not all who call "Lord! Lord!" will be saved

But you'd know better

Yet in complete accordance to Acts 2 . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Whic part of this is a public forum don't you understand?

If you want to post stuff that defies what Jesus said, then I'm likely to speak up.

You're free to ignore my posts.

Yet it doesn't defy what Jesus said . . . nice try though, but no cigar.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Apparently I can be, but still believe in a cart of old horse dung at the same time!

Remarkable how confused Protestant's 'once-in-a-lifetime' offer of salvation works.

Luther could still be saved even whilst he was urging the utter slaughter of Anabaptists, and the persecution of Jews

That is such a false caricature . . . study up dude or you will continue to sound ignorant.

 

[Asinner]

These arguments are so fruitless. Nothing can be proved here, except our own vanity. I am not exempt from this. Christ said we will know the truth by our love for one another. Let it be so.

Love,
Christina

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Still Protestants seem to have a basic problem with the understanding

"All Scripture is inspired by God"

with

"All of God's inspired (message) is in Scripture"



I go back to where Paul himself wrote to a church to keep to the traditions he had taught them by both Epistle and word of mouth.

Paul saw them of equal value.

Protestants do not.

If you quote the verse again it will be dismantled again . . . but you can if you would so choose . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Sunlover1 claimed that the message taught by Paul in both Scripture and by word is EXACTLY the same.

Based on what?

His own consistency . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

You have the offices of deacon, priest and bishop in the NT and Paul telling the Hebrews to obey their elders.

Do you think that ended when the Book of Acts finishes?

Why would Jesus appoint a select few and instruct them, and they would then choose others, and then, guided by the Holy Spirit they go out to teach, and then suddenly it stops?

Not priest bro . . . Jesus fulfilled that role per Hebrews . . . the five/four fold offices don't mention priest . . . nor Acts usage in relation to the Ephesians.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

1Ti 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Forgive me..

That doesn't call the church the truth . . . it says that the church is the pillar and butress OF the truth.

 

[racer]

The Holy Scriptures were never meant to be used by anyone outside The Church.

Twist it any way you want.

Forgive me...

So, what is your evidence for this? You really expect us to believe that God left the laity at the mercy of a man operated institution with no way to "measure" what they were teaching us?

Are you serious?

 

[Rick Otto]

Jesus said his body is real food

Paul says that it's not just bread.

Many Protestants miss this in the Bible

1 Corinthians 11
The Lord's Supper
17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
And when I come I will give further directions.

Specifically they missed St. Paul saying it's not just a 'meal'
20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat

It is NOT the "Lord's Supper". If you want to 'eat' a meal, do so at home...
21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?

He repeats that this was 'received' from Jesus
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you:

Then in the same passage he repeats Jesus' words (having already said that it is NOT a 'communal meal'; the Lord's Supper)

Orthodox, Catholic, & a large number of Protestants miss this: Just as The Lord's Supper is not a meal like you eat at home, The bread & wine are not real food like you eat at home to nourish your flesh either. It is real food in the spiritual ense.