How do we know . . . .

[racer]

They established ONE truth. They didnt go to every town and teach something different.

Who says differently? The fact there are now different beliefs, is not evidence that any one church has everything correct.

Here's an interesting passage:

Acts 15:23; And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

 

[racer]

John 21:25
"There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of these things were written down, I think the whole world would not be big enough for all the books that were written."


When your Church's age goes back to the Apostles what is not written is heald in Tradition so we don't have scriptural restrictions.

If you insist on holding this passage from John in a strictly literal sense as evidence that not all that Jesus taught regarding the Gospel was written down, then explain to us the intent of the following verses:

Acts 1:1; The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Acts 1:2; Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

 

[racer]

Since Trento likes to quote Protestant Scholars who appear to promote certain assertions of the RCC, I thought I'd show him some RC scholars who taught contrary to what RCism asserts. I don't have the link but if you google or search yahoo it will come up:
A Second Response to Steve Ray

A Refutation of His Misrepresentations of the Teaching of Cyprian and of the Comments of William Webster

By William Webster

. . . . Cyprian refers here to the fact that no bishop has a right to demand obedience from his fellow bishops or to withdraw communion because of a difference of opinion. He speaks of this as a universal law in the Church as a whole. This, of course, goes back to Cyprian’s view of ecclesiology as expressed in his treatise On the Unity of the Church. In that treatise he makes it clear that all bishops are of equal status. Thus, from the standpoint of his ecclesiology, no bishop can lawfully be called the Bishop of Bishops as Stephen was claiming for himself. The only authority that can dictate to another bishop is a Church Council and that is precisely why they have come together in Council in Carthage. Three Roman Catholic historians, Robert Eno, Michael Winter and William Jurgens, affirm this conclusion:

Robert Eno: ‘Apart from his good relations and harmony with Bishop Cornelius over the matter of the lapsed, what was Cyprian’s basic view of the role, not of Peter as symbol of unity, but of Rome in the contemporary Church? Given what we have said above, it is clear that he did not see the bishop of Rome as his superior, except by way of honor, even though the lawful bishop of Rome also held the chair of Peter in an historical sense (Ep. 52.2)...It is clear that in Cyprian’s mind...one theological conclusion he does not draw is that the bishop of Rome has authority which is superior to that of the African bishops’ (Robert Eno, The Rise of the Papacy (Wilmington: Michael Glazier, 1990), pp. 57-60).

Michael Winter: ‘Cyprian used the Petrine text of Matthew to defend episcopal authority, but many later theologians, influenced by the papal connexions of the text, have interpreted Cyprian in a propapal sense which was alien to his thought...Cyprian would have used Matthew 16 to defend the authority of any bishop, but since he happened to employ it for the sake of the Bishop of Rome, it created the impression that he understood it as referring to papal authority...Catholics as well as Protestants are now generally agreed that Cyprian did not attribute a superior authority to Peter’ (Michael Winter, St. Peter and the Popes (Baltimore: Helikon, 1960), pp. 47-48).

William Jurgens: ‘Although Cyprian was on excellent terms with Pope St. Cornelius...he fell out sharply with Cornelius’ successor, Pope St. Stephen...on the question of the rebaptizing of converted heretics. It was the immemorial custom of the African Church to regard Baptism conferred by heretics as invalid, and in spite of Stephen’s severe warnings, Cyprian never yielded. His attitude was simply that every bishop is responsible for his own actions, answerable to God alone’ (William Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville: Liturgical, 1970), Volume I, p. 216-217).

 

[racer]

Perhaps you think that The Church of Antioch does not keep records or perhaps they don't know who or what they are?

If they kept records, and you wish to shut him/us up, show us these records.

What possible reason would a Christian Church gain from lying about such a thing?

Maybe it was not an intentional lie, but a misrepresentation that was passed on orally and gradually deviated from the truth.

You simply will not accept facts from the source. It's called "falling on deaf ears".

Did you provide him a written source--a concrete source or do you expect him to take you at your word.

 

[Rick Otto]

Besides, even Jesus spoke out against licensing & franschising of the gospel:

Mark 9:33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? 34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

...So sectarian supremicism is anti-Christ.

 

[InnocentOdion]

Rick,
Nice.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You could alway flog me until I shut up.

Forgive me...

 

[Philothei]

who ever writes the bigger letters and most colorful wins.... WA should not have a problem matching up with Racer...lol....(just kidding ya )

 

[racer]

Everything Tradition is scriptural.

Would you perhaps want to rephrase this statement? How can you say this unequivocally, when the NT so fervently demeans "traditions."

That doesn't mean it's in scripture, but it doesn't go against scripture, and it always points back to the Church.

So, where is this rule located? What is it's source and from where does it's source get it's authority?

The Church knows what you need to become perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

What good does that do me--what your church supposedly knows? I may not have the capability to properly discern what your church teaches. For all I know your church could be teaching me a false gospel. How do I determine this?

You may find tidbits here and there looking on your own, but only in the Church can you find the fullness of teaching and Truth.

Gee, I get tired of having to repeat St. Augustine, but I will yet again:

On Christian Doctrine, Book I

Chapter 40.—What Manner of Reader Scripture Demands.

44. And, therefore, if a man fully understands that “the end of the commandment is charity, out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned,”1757and is bent upon making all his understanding of Scripture to bear upon these three graces, he may come to the interpretation of these books with an easy mind. For while the apostle says “love,” he adds “out of a pure heart,” to provide against anything being loved but that which is worthy of love.

Book II

Chapter 5.—Scripture Translated into Various Languages.

6. And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings a remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation.And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.

Chapter 8.—The Canonical Books.

12. But let us now go back to consider the third step here mentioned, for it is about it that I have set myself to speak and reason as the Lord shall grant me wisdom. The most skillful interpreter of the sacred writings, then, will be he who in the first place has read them all and retained them in his knowledge, if not yet with full understanding, still with such knowledge as reading gives,—those of them, at least, that are called canonical. For he will read the others with greater safety when built up in the belief of the truth, so that they will not take first possession of a weak mind, nor, cheating it with dangerous falsehoods and delusions, fill it with prejudices adverse to a sound understanding . . .

Chapter 9.—How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

14.In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them.Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf104.iv.iv.xx.html

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

33. . . . Do not be angry. I too barked and was a dog; and then, as was right, instead of the food of teaching, . . . is the true happy life, nor is it anywhere but in the Catholic teaching. Is not this what the Apostle Paul appears to desire when he says, "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge,that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it.The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. . . .

Because when someone says this Scripture verse means this on a forum, and the Church hasn't always taught your new meaning, you've taken Scripture out of the context of Tradition.

You’ve yet to establish your assertion that your church possesses the proper context of tradition.

 

[racer]

As for the OP... post #11

Forgive me...

Well, it really wasn't much of an answer, and if you noticed I pointed out you hadn't answered my question(s) . . . an "s" on the end of a word sometimes indicates plurality.

 

[racer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45543868#post45543868
St. Joseph was 110 when he died, and Christ himself buried him the year before starting his ministry.

Like I said... It all depends on who you trust for information.

I see The Church of Antioch as being the most reliable source.

Forgive me...



Looks like Arkansas.

LOL!

 

[racer]

who ever writes the bigger letters and most colorful wins.... WA should not have a problem matching up with Racer...lol....(just kidding ya )

Um . . . skooz me, but um . . . I ALLways win!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Would you perhaps want to rephrase this statement? How can you say this unequivocally, when the NT so fervently demeans "traditions."

So, where is this rule located? What is it's source and from where does it's source get it's authority?
The Church knows what you need to become perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.
What good does that do me--what your church supposedly knows? I may not have the capability to properly discern what your church teaches. For all I know your church could be teaching me a false gospel. How do I determine this?

Gee, I get tired of having to repeat St. Augustine, but I will yet again:

On Christian Doctrine, Book I

Chapter 40.—What Manner of Reader Scripture Demands.

44. And, therefore, if a man fully understands that “the end of the commandment is charity, out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned,”1757and is bent upon making all his understanding of Scripture to bear upon these three graces, he may come to the interpretation of these books with an easy mind. For while the apostle says “love,” he adds “out of a pure heart,” to provide against anything being loved but that which is worthy of love.

Book II

Chapter 5.—Scripture Translated into Various Languages.

6. And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings a remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation.And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.

Chapter 8.—The Canonical Books.

12. But let us now go back to consider the third step here mentioned, for it is about it that I have set myself to speak and reason as the Lord shall grant me wisdom. The most skillful interpreter of the sacred writings, then, will be he who in the first place has read them all and retained them in his knowledge, if not yet with full understanding, still with such knowledge as reading gives,—those of them, at least, that are called canonical. For he will read the others with greater safety when built up in the belief of the truth, so that they will not take first possession of a weak mind, nor, cheating it with dangerous falsehoods and delusions, fill it with prejudices adverse to a sound understanding . . .

Chapter 9.—How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

14.In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them.Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf104.iv.iv.xx.html

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

33. . . . Do not be angry. I too barked and was a dog; and then, as was right, instead of the food of teaching, . . . is the true happy life, nor is it anywhere but in the Catholic teaching. Is not this what the Apostle Paul appears to desire when he says, "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge,that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it.The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. . . .

You’ve yet to establish your assertion that your church possesses the proper context of tradition.

GAH! My retinas!

 

[InnocentOdion]

who ever writes the bigger letters and most colorful wins.... WA should not have a problem matching up with Racer...lol....(just kidding ya )

Lol! Nice one. You forgot beamishboy!

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

So, do I win?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Luk 24:27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Luk 24:27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Forgive me...

and?

 

[Philothei]

Lol! Nice one. You forgot beamishboy!

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

So, do I win?

YOU DO!!! at least you are more creative

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

and?

It was in answer to your post #587.

any evidence that he sat them down with a textbook? Or, is it like the NT seems to point to, that he taught them word of mouth, because he knew the scriptures word for word?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.



It was in answer to your post #587.

so then, you think on the road to Emmaus, he was lugging a pile of scrolls?

I don't believe so. Christ wouldn't need the text, to teach the text.

that was my point.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

so then, you think on the road to Emmaus, he was lugging a pile of scrolls?

I don't believe so. Christ wouldn't need the text, to teach the text.

that was my point.

I didn't say he needed it. I said the Apostles did.

Forgive me...