How do we know what "truth" really is?

[thompsonmark]

a truth really is not just what you see by your eyes but is the thing which you feel, what makes a person life to act.. and which is hidden from the outshone world...

 

[wmpratt]

Um, are you 100% sure about that? Have you read those other "gospels" yourself or are you just believing what others tell you? I've read part of the book of Mary - and it was trying to say that Mary was born of immaculate conception. Does that line up with GOD's word? No. That kind of thinking completely changes the meaning of who was who. Mary was a servant of God who was humble and loved God. She was honored to serve the heavenly Father by birthing and raising Jesus. But when you make implications that Mary was of immaculate conception, who does that make her? Think about it.

Anyway - Do you really think - use some good ole' logic here - that God, the Almighty, Omniscient Creator of everything that exists and who loves us and wants us to at least have a chance to choose the truth would sit there and watch supposed true books of the bible be hidden? C'mon. God doesn't play games. If it were meant to be in the Bible, it would be in the Bible. He is sovereign and has power over what happens here - He doesn't force His will onto us because He loves us, but if you look at all of the amazing stories in the bible, or even current living people's testimonies -mine included - you can clearly see that He is in control and He does what is good for HIS GLORY. He would not just sit there and let a bunch of supposed essential books that were supposed to be in the Bible remain secret. That is a blatant lie from Satan and his minions and it is as easy to see as the nose on your face, if you will admit it.


Then you need to spend more time reading it and reflecting on it, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you and show you the truth. The Bible is the testimony of God about the Messiah, Jesus. That is what it is supposed to be and that is what it is.

I did not come to my conclusions lightly. I've been at this for some time. I never said that all writings should be accepted but it's important to note that the 27 books and letters of the Bible is not the end all and be all of Jewish and early Christian experiences.

Everything that we need to know is in the Bible (any version of), namely salvation. All the other stories are just icing on the cake. I mean is it necessary for me to know about Exodus? No it isn't.

I think it's important to realize that Christianity exists outside of the Bible. Understanding and truth can be gained independent of the Bible.

If someone is getting hung up stories that for them are out of context and out of culture, maybe they shouldn’t dwell on them for too long. Maybe they should concentrate on the relationship with God and not worry so much on the details.

The Bible encompasses over 1500 years and a multitude of cultures. It’s highly unlikely you can find a person with complete understanding of every line in every book of the Bible.

 

[amandatea]

I did not come to my conclusions lightly. I've been at this for some time. I never said that all writings should be accepted but it's important to note that the 27 books and letters of the Bible is not the end all and be all of Jewish and early Christian experiences.

Everything that we need to know is in the Bible (any version of), namely salvation. All the other stories are just icing on the cake. I mean is it necessary for me to know about Exodus? No it isn't.

I think it's important to realize that Christianity exists outside of the Bible. Understanding and truth can be gained independent of the Bible.

If someone is getting hung up stories that for them are out of context and out of culture, maybe they shouldn’t dwell on them for too long. Maybe they should concentrate on the relationship with God and not worry so much on the details.

The Bible encompasses over 1500 years and a multitude of cultures. It’s highly unlikely you can find a person with complete understanding of every line in every book of the Bible.

You didn't really present a logical swaying argument. I don't buy it.

 

[Albion]

I did not come to my conclusions lightly. I've been at this for some time. I never said that all writings should be accepted but it's important to note that the 27 books and letters of the Bible is not the end all and be all of Jewish and early Christian experiences.

Everything that we need to know is in the Bible (any version of), namely salvation. All the other stories are just icing on the cake. I mean is it necessary for me to know about Exodus? No it isn't.

I think it's important to realize that Christianity exists outside of the Bible. Understanding and truth can be gained independent of the Bible.

I think that's where you've gone wrong. I could stay with you (with serious reservations, to be sure) up to that point, but not this.

No Bible, no divine revelation. No revelation, no Christian religion. There's a question about how to identify the inspired writings from the rest of what some Hebrews wrote, but when you take that to the level of us not needing the word of God at all...well, no. Not and remain Christian.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

There's just one problem. The Bible we know today did not exist in the time of Jesus. There are also many gospels and other writings from the time of Jesus and earlier that didn’t make it into our modern bible. Our modern sensibilities can (often do) skew our understanding of scripture. Sometimes understanding context and culture of the time of a particular verse can make all the difference.


While I have no doubt there’s many benefits to the scriptures in the Bible I think there’s a danger of elevating it to a status it was never meant to have.

Im afraid you have a common misconception often expressed by Critics . The Bible we have today DID exist in the time of Jesus and first century ! When Jesus was alive, they had the Old Testament in its totality which we have today...and Jesus spoke of the New Testament which was to come after he ascended from earth , and, which was written in its totality by a.d. 90 in accordance to the enormous amount of manuscript evidence we have in our posession today as confirmation .

Further, the reason why other alledged 'gospel' writings and other extraneous literary works did not make it into our Bibles...is because they didnt specifically meet the stringent qualifications of being inspired of God (5 lines of converging evidence required at the time ) , so even though they were discovered they were not selected to be put into the Canon of Scripture .

Our modern 'sensibilities' skew our understanding of The Bible because a good many people come to the table already biggoted / have no desire to really look into the Bibles credibility / and wish to remain willfully ignorant of the Bible because it is a percieved affront to Ones desire for complete autonomous living including desired lifestyle choices that are often unsavory , the personal implications associated with being morally accountable to the Creator of us All , and a disdain toward being submissively and rightfully owned by someone far greater than Ourselves. Therefore, a plethera of personally motivated excuses are asserted which in reality, are a fallacy in and of themselves.

Further, while some consideration should be given to cultural dictates in the Bible....such things as how the Creator expects mankind to live as given in the 10 Commandments and Jesus' Teachings , are in fact for all generations regardless of popular culture philosophies that crop up to maximize improper/immoral proclivities toward unrestrained living , for example.

Finally, there IS the danger of NOT elevating The BIble to the extraordinary inspired-proven Book that it is , and, for Ones life compass...especially considering that there are no higher moral or ethical standards to live by than those found in the Bibles instructions for correct and civil living ; but , perhaps they too are seen as an affront to Ones desire to live unencumbered by such 'restraining values' (?)

Lastly, if Jesus himself isnt the world biggest Fraud and Liar known to mankind in what he claimed and proved concerning his identity as mankinds sin Savior and subsequent Judge of All , then the implications are certainly immense for Ones eternal destiny from refusing Christ and the historical eye witness evidence which has been accurately handed down in our BIbles for all to read and understand just what IS at stake. The wise take the time and energy to deeply look into this and are willing to ACT on the truth of Christ crucified based on good reason and logic ... so compelling that THE worlds foremost Court of Law Evidence Professor named Prof. Greeleaf in the 20th century undertook a wager by his Students to put the New Testament of the Bible 'on trial' to see if it stands up to intense scientific scrutiny , and upon exhaustive attempts to discredit the New Testament, he instead gave up his agnosticism and became a Christian. This has been the case of many scholars thruout history, and...the Bible beckons ALL to examine its credibility (that is, if the personal WILL shall allow) .

Regards.

 

[amandatea]

Im afraid you have a common misconception often expressed by Critics . The Bible we have today DID exist in the time of Jesus and first century ! When Jesus was alive, they had the Old Testament in its totality which we have today...and Jesus spoke of the New Testament which was to come after he ascended from earth , and, which was written in its totality by a.d. 90 in accordance to the enormous amount of manuscript evidence we have in our posession today as confirmation .

Further, the reason why other alledged 'gospel' writings and other extraneous literary works did not make it into our Bibles...is because they didnt specifically meet the stringent qualifications of being inspired of God (5 lines of converging evidence required at the time ) , so even though they were discovered they were not selected to be put into the Canon of Scripture .

Our modern 'sensibilities' skew our understanding of The Bible because a good many people come to the table already biggoted / have no desire to really look into the Bibles credibility / and wish to remain willfully ignorant of the Bible because it is a percieved affront to Ones desire for complete autonomous living including desired lifestyle choices that are often unsavory , the personal implications associated with being morally accountable to the Creator of us All , and a disdain toward being submissively and rightfully owned by someone far greater than Ourselves. Therefore, a plethera of personally motivated excuses are asserted which in reality, are a fallacy in and of themselves.

Further, while some consideration should be given to cultural dictates in the Bible....such things as how the Creator expects mankind to live as given in the 10 Commandments and Jesus' Teachings , are in fact for all generations regardless of popular culture philosophies that crop up to maximize improper/immoral proclivities toward unrestrained living , for example.

Finally, there IS the danger of NOT elevating The BIble to the extraordinary inspired-proven Book that it is , and, for Ones life compass...especially considering that there are no higher moral or ethical standards to live by than those found in the Bibles instructions for correct and civil living ; but , perhaps they too are seen as an affront to Ones desire to live unencumbered by such 'restraining values' (?)

Lastly, if Jesus himself isnt the world biggest Fraud and Liar known to mankind in what he claimed and proved concerning his identity as mankinds sin Savior and subsequent Judge of All , then the implications are certainly immense for Ones eternal destiny from refusing Christ and the historical eye witness evidence which has been accurately handed down in our BIbles for all to read and understand just what IS at stake. The wise take the time and energy to deeply look into this and are willing to ACT on the truth of Christ crucified based on good reason and logic ... so compelling that THE worlds foremost Court of Law Evidence Professor named Prof. Greeleaf in the 20th century undertook a wager by his Students to put the New Testament of the Bible 'on trial' to see if it stands up to intense scientific scrutiny , and upon exhaustive attempts to discredit the New Testament, he instead gave up his agnosticism and became a Christian. This has been the case of many scholars thruout history, and...the Bible beckons ALL to examine its credibility (that is, if the personal WILL shall allow) .

Regards.

Thank you Dave, for filling the gap of info that I didn't really have a grasp on. I know that deciding what would be in the final bible that we have was a long process but I don't know the specifics. I couldn't agree more with your post though.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Thank you Dave, for filling the gap of info that I didn't really have a grasp on. I know that deciding what would be in the final bible that we have was a long process but I don't know the specifics. I couldn't agree more with your post though.

Youre welcome my Friend. We as Christians can have absolute confidence that The Bible is credible based on historic , scientific evidences ; as Followers of Christ we need not throw out logic , rationale, and good reason for the Faith that we have. In fact, a Follower of Secular Humanism which represents the greatest Critic of Christianity...has to have FAR greater Faith than what a Christian occupies.

Heres a site that may come in handy for you : Common Atheists' Myths

 

[amandatea]

Youre welcome my Friend. We as Christians can have absolute confidence that The Bible is credible based on historic , scientific evidences ; as Followers of Christ we need not throw out logic , rationale, and good reason for the Faith that we have. In fact, a Follower of Secular Humanism which represents the greatest Critic of Christianity...has to have FAR greater Faith than what a Christian occupies.

Heres a site that may come in handy for you : Common Atheists' Myths

I've read a lot of atheists' arguments and myths and none of them hold water from my understanding - and I'm not a person who just blindly follows. I have a definite need to understand things based on logic and evidence. I spent many years learning about many different topics and Christianity and the history thereof is the most profound and interesting topic I've studied.

You're right though; we definitely need to know what we believe and why. If we do not, we will be easily swayed by the enemy to backslide into indifference or confusion or outright rejection.

 

[Lilly Owl]

I think we all struggle sooner or later in matters of faith. Any person who clings to any faith, hope, in something greater certainly has to I'd think.

The thing about the Bible belief system is, people say that's how we find our way to the one true God. Because God inspired the Bible.

And yet, there are over 40 authors responsible for it's content. The first part, the old testament, of which was derived from the Jews. Whom at first it is said, in the newer testament, was that group of lost sheep for whom Jesus was initially exclusively sent to save.
We have all this to read due to committees of men who convened numerous times to decide among themselves what materials they had to review, were considered worthy of becoming what is known as both the old and the new testaments.
And after those many gatherings, they decreed also that their final decision culminated into a closed canon.
Translation; the one and only and the last time God would ever speak to his human creation.
And that speaking was done, by those committees elections, through what are those 66 books Christians hold to be the "words of God" "God's breath". The Bible, today.

A perfect God can only be found in a man made book?
A book that has discrepancies, errors, contradictions? That has over 100 versions that have been handed down while the originals are no longer available?
That has language translations that differ due to any number of reasons, from an original tongue?
That is today in part one version authorized by a deviant monarch named King James?
And his, "authorized version". That in one part alters scripture that decreed a poisoner was not to be let to live, and instead under his authority or command, was changed to read: thou shalt not let a witch to live. Because of his personal paranoia about witches in his realm.


“I would rather be torn in pieces by wild horses than that this abominable translation (KJV) should ever be foisted upon the English people.”Hugh Broughton -Foremost Hebrew Scholar, England 17th century.

I've met people who say the only way we can know God is through the Bible.
While other devout religionists, Fundy's and Evangelicals especially, decree that finding God in nature and holding faith Jesus was a prophet and a role model for righteousness, and that should be enough when the Bible is so convoluted and unreliable as a true gateway to truth, is heresy or damnable lies.

God wrote a book!
One would think he'd have done a better job.
So is it any wonder asking how we know the truth is a question that should resonate above those who say we should just believe without question? When what we're asked to believe is that God created humans and then damned them for living up to that condition and to his disappointment. But then he decided if we ask him to forgive us for being how he made us, he'll take pity and save us from his judgment about who we are and what we did, using only those traits, characteristics, and qualities he imbued.

You know how idolatry is condemned in the Bible?
What if Christians today are worshiping Paul's fiction?
And Jesus has not a thing to do with it. Instead, what Paul encountered on that road to Damascus, two different accounts recorded in scripture as to how it happened, was what God allowed to reign as lord of this earth; Lucifer. (Paul saw a bright light (Lucifer-light bringer), and heard a voice speaking from a loud thunderous noise (Satan, that proverbial voice in the whirlwind).
What if after Jesus ascended Lucifer set to achieve his goal as antithesis of God. Adversary of truth. And approached Paul, a persecutor and prosecutor of early Christians when he was known as Saul of Tarsus, and led him to teach Lucifers gospel.

Paulianity!
Not Christianity.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I've read a lot of atheists' arguments and myths and none of them hold water from my understanding - and I'm not a person who just blindly follows. I have a definite need to understand things based on logic and evidence. I spent many years learning about many different topics and Christianity and the history thereof is the most profound and interesting topic I've studied.

You're right though; we definitely need to know what we believe and why. If we do not, we will be easily swayed by the enemy to backslide into indifference or confusion or outright rejection.

Im glad you are starting to see that the Christian Faith is centered on good reason,rationale, and logic and that its for the thinking Person ; our Creator doesnt expect anyone to blindly sign up to believe in and follow him based on whimsical desire . Christ said to love the Lord your God with all your heart , MIND, soul, and strength....and he truly respects any genuine Seeker/Skeptic who doesnt leave his Mind at the door.

All the evidences that One could possible require to make a wise logical decision about the Christian Faith as well as the incredible impossible faith required by being an Atheist, is neatly wrapped up all in one best selling book as follows : I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist: Norman L. Geisler, Frank Turek, David Limbaugh: 9781581345612: Amazon.com: Books . A good used copy can be had for a minimal amount. It is by far THE best scholarly book which is very understandable , on the subject. The Author also goes around the Nation putting on free live seminars at Universities and Colleges typically lasting 3-4 hours each , under the seminar title of : 'I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' ... so, go to www.cross-examined.org (or , com) and scroll to his speaking schedule . It will knock your socks off .

Finally, im pleased to run across a Person as yourself who is genuine and a sincere Desirer of the truth on this most important issue of all possible issues (Christ/God) . God promises that 'if you seek me with all your heart, you will find me' and along the way, he promises to reveal himself more and more to you in very distinct tangible ways if you are willing to keep moving forward. Regards.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I think we all struggle sooner or later in matters of faith. Any person who clings to any faith, hope, in something greater certainly has to I'd think.

The thing about the Bible belief system is, people say that's how we find our way to the one true God. Because God inspired the Bible.

And yet, there are over 40 authors responsible for it's content. The first part, the old testament, of which was derived from the Jews. Whom at first it is said, in the newer testament, was that group of lost sheep for whom Jesus was initially exclusively sent to save.
We have all this to read due to committees of men who convened numerous times to decide among themselves what materials they had to review, were considered worthy of becoming what is known as both the old and the new testaments.
And after those many gatherings, they decreed also that their final decision culminated into a closed canon.
Translation; the one and only and the last time God would ever speak to his human creation.
And that speaking was done, by those committees elections, through what are those 66 books Christians hold to be the "words of God" "God's breath". The Bible, today.

A perfect God can only be found in a man made book?
A book that has discrepancies, errors, contradictions? That has over 100 versions that have been handed down while the originals are no longer available?
That has language translations that differ due to any number of reasons, from an original tongue?
That is today in part one version authorized by a deviant monarch named King James?
And his, "authorized version". That in one part alters scripture that decreed a poisoner was not to be let to live, and instead under his authority or command, was changed to read: thou shalt not let a witch to live. Because of his personal paranoia about witches in his realm.


“I would rather be torn in pieces by wild horses than that this abominable translation (KJV) should ever be foisted upon the English people.”Hugh Broughton -Foremost Hebrew Scholar, England 17th century.

I've met people who say the only way we can know God is through the Bible.
While other devout religionists, Fundy's and Evangelicals especially, decree that finding God in nature and holding faith Jesus was a prophet and a role model for righteousness, and that should be enough when the Bible is so convoluted and unreliable as a true gateway to truth, is heresy or damnable lies.

God wrote a book!
One would think he'd have done a better job.
So is it any wonder asking how we know the truth is a question that should resonate above those who say we should just believe without question? When what we're asked to believe is that God created humans and then damned them for living up to that condition and to his disappointment. But then he decided if we ask him to forgive us for being how he made us, he'll take pity and save us from his judgment about who we are and what we did, using only those traits, characteristics, and qualities he imbued.

You know how idolatry is condemned in the Bible?
What if Christians today are worshiping Paul's fiction?
And Jesus has not a thing to do with it. Instead, what Paul encountered on that road to Damascus, two different accounts recorded in scripture as to how it happened, was what God allowed to reign as lord of this earth; Lucifer. (Paul saw a bright light (Lucifer-light bringer), and heard a voice speaking from a loud thunderous noise (Satan, that proverbial voice in the whirlwind).
What if after Jesus ascended Lucifer set to achieve his goal as antithesis of God. Adversary of truth. And approached Paul, a persecutor and prosecutor of early Christians when he was known as Saul of Tarsus, and led him to teach Lucifers gospel.

Paulianity!
Not Christianity.

Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

 

[wmpratt]

I think that's where you've gone wrong. I could stay with you (with serious reservations, to be sure) up to that point, but not this.

No Bible, no divine revelation. No revelation, no Christian religion. There's a question about how to identify the inspired writings from the rest of what some Hebrews wrote, but when you take that to the level of us not needing the word of God at all...well, no. Not and remain Christian.

So your thought is there is no Christian (post messiah Jewish) religion without the (4th century construct) "Bible"?

 

[wmpratt]

You didn't really present a logical swaying argument. I don't buy it.

Maybe that's your problem; it's not a logical thing.
Besides you don't have to "buy it". I'm not selling it.

My whole point is I'd hate to have someone walk away because of some trivial matter.

The OP asked the question; How do we know what "truth" really is? I'm saying that the difference in opinion of believers is really unimportant to the relationship with God. It’s my belief anyone in that relationship will just know if a person is selling them a bill of goods in regards to truth.

 

[amandatea]

Maybe that's your problem; it's not a logical thing.
Besides you don't have to "buy it". I'm not selling it.

My whole point is I'd hate to have someone walk away because of some trivial matter.

The OP asked the question; How do we know what "truth" really is? I'm saying that the difference in opinion of believers is really unimportant to the relationship with God. It’s my belief anyone in that relationship will just know if a person is selling them a bill of goods in regards to truth.

It's not all a logic thing but there is logic to it.

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

I would just interpret the Bible literally & not look at other people's ideas. Because once we know God exists, we ought to take His words seriously. And if we believe Jesus was the supernatural God of the cosmos, the Mashiach, we ought to strive to imitate how he lived. He was perfect in every way.

 

[Albion]

The OP asked the question; How do we know what "truth" really is? I'm saying that the difference in opinion of believers is really unimportant to the relationship with God. It’s my belief anyone in that relationship will just know if a person is selling them a bill of goods in regards to truth.

I'd say that that's obviously untrue, since there are sincere believers in thousands of different denominations, many of them distinguished from the others by unique doctrines or practices.

 

[wmpratt]

I'd say that that's obviously untrue, since there are sincere believers in thousands of different denominations, many of them distinguished from the others by unique doctrines or practices.

It's not knowing the actual answer but knowing what your hearing doesn't sound quite right. This happens over time obviously.

What do you say to people that have doubts? That what they've been told doesn't fit what they see?

 

[Albion]

It's not knowing the actual answer but knowing what your hearing doesn't sound quite right. This happens over time obviously.

What do you say to people that have doubts? That what they've been told doesn't fit what they see?

I agree that this can happen and often does. However, we know that there are dedicated Catholics and dedicated, convinced Baptists or Mormons; and no amount of study or years of life seem to bring them to doubt their respective faiths, even though their belief systems are obviously at odds with each other in many ways.

 

[xxxxxxtra]

Jesus say that He is the truth.. He also says that He is the Word.. So trust Him.. The Word (scripture) is God breathed(the Word) refer to john 1
Dont pay attention to what others say.. Read it for yourself and trust the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ as the standard for what is truth.. Hold to this standard that no man can possibly refute..