How do we explain Neanderthals?

[Radrook]

Agreed. If I didn't know what I do know about the history of public education, among other things, I might well be compelled by the consensus of the presumed experts. If I weren't so thoroughly convinced of the falsehood at the root of Freudianism as well as a good portion of what we call the "psyche-"sciences, I might feel compelled to accept their explanations as logical and probable.

What flaws do you find in the Freudian concepts?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know you didn't ask me, but from my earliest days in studying Freud, I used to wonder if it was REALLY a good idea to "kind of indulge" some evil desire within ourselves so that we don't carry it out in it's more outward or grosser form.

Now from an Orthodox standpoint especially, I not only know that the opposite is true, but why.

Much of the rest of Freudian psychology rests on shaky ground too, especially if your goal is the being of a HEALTHY person rather than the description of a sick one.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Interesting development...

“...only male Neanderthals and female humans were able to produce fertile offspring."

Hypothesis Journal » Neanderthal-human Hybrids

Read the article and some of the concepts are interesting (though I'd have to do some more checking - apparently there's been some new thoughts accepted since I was in the field) but ... I mostly wanted to say Hi!

How's it going? I haven't checked the schedules, but I might get back around to visiting your parish soon. I'm especially interested in the Bible Study you all had listed the last time I checked. I might have a little more time + ability to drive soon.

 

[Radrook]

I know you didn't ask me, but from my earliest days in studying Freud, I used to wonder if it was REALLY a good idea to "kind of indulge" some evil desire within ourselves so that we don't carry it out in it's more outward or grosser form.

Now from an Orthodox standpoint especially, I not only know that the opposite is true, but why.

Much of the rest of Freudian psychology rests on shaky ground too, especially if your goal is the being of a HEALTHY person rather than the description of a sick one.

Repression of desires or emotions will definitely put a strain on the mind and it will strive to find ways to alleviate that tension. However, if one maintains a constant focus via prayer and study of God's word one will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to resist evil desires and will successfully remain on the pathway to life. That is a promise that we are given and God will not disappoint us if we trust him.

Philippians 4:13 (AMP)

13 I can do all things [which He has called me to do] through Him who strengthens and empowers me [to fulfill His purpose—I am self-sufficient in Christ’s sufficiency; I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him who infuses me with inner strength and confident peace.]


Proverbs 3:5-6 (NIV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Repression of desires or emotions will definitely put a strain on the mind and it will strive to find ways to alleviate that tension. However, if one maintains a constant focus via prayer and study of God's word one will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to resist evil desires and will successfully remain on the pathway to life. That is a promise that we are given and God will not disappoint us if we trust him.

Philippians 4:13 (AMP)

13 I can do all things [which He has called me to do] through Him who strengthens and empowers me [to fulfill His purpose—I am self-sufficient in Christ’s sufficiency; I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him who infuses me with inner strength and confident peace.]


Proverbs 3:5-6 (NIV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

"Repression" isn't the right thing to do. But we certainly seek to resist and overcome.

Orthodox psychotherapy is a fascinating field, to me.

Even when I was involved in western therapeutic models, I basically considered Freud useful for description, often (not always), but not much more. I apologize if you are a Freudian psychotherapist - I am willing to respect others and simply agree to disagree within the field, and that has been my policy all along.

 

[Radrook]

"Repression" isn't the right thing to do. But we certainly seek to resist and overcome.

Orthodox psychotherapy is a fascinating field, to me.

Even when I was involved in western therapeutic models, I basically considered Freud useful for description, often (not always), but not much more. I apologize if you are a Freudian psychotherapist - I am willing to respect others and simply agree to disagree within the field, and that has been my policy all along.

How do you overcome a desire without attempting to repress it? Doesn't it become repressed automatically when we ignore and substitute other activities in its place? Perhaps we should define repression?

Repression,

In psychoanalytic theory, the exclusion of distressing memories, thoughts, or feelings from the conscious mind. Often involving sexual or aggressive urges or painful childhood memories, these unwanted mental contents are pushed into the unconscious mind. Repression is thought to give rise to anxiety and to neurotic symptoms, which begin when a forbidden drive or impulse threatens to enter the conscious mind.
repression | psychology

According to this theory the repressed thought or discarded thoughts will cause anxiety and neurotic symptoms. Based on my personal experience in ignoring such thoughts or discarding them I can say that all I experienced was a profound sense of peace. So if indeed these rejected tendencies and thoughts harass others it must be those who do not have the help of God's Holy Spirit which prevents such a thing from happening.

John 14:27 (NIV)

27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

 

[~Anastasia~]

How do you overcome a desire without attempting to repress it? Doesn't it become repressed automatically when we ignore and substitute other activities in its place? Perhaps we should define repression?

This is something I'm still working on as it takes years to really learn.

But we don't just "ignore and replace". It might seem that way, and that is part of what we do, but there is more direct engagement with the "replacement" part in the mind, and there are other aspects as well. (And I'm not really comfortable just saying "ignore" ... in some sense we do the opposite of ignoring it). Asceticism is a big part of that, subduing the flesh. Taking part in the Sacraments helps as well, and there is no Freudian counterpart.

This would honestly require an indepth conversation to really get into. And it's something I would enjoy. But I can't be "the expert". I can maybe give a few answers and point to a few things, but I'm not a master of this. I wish I knew it better, and I just might renter the field professionally. I just don't know if I am not already too old to be thinking that way.

So I'm up for it, but not sure I'm able - the conversation, I mean.

 

[Radrook]

This is something I'm still working on as it takes years to really learn.

But we don't just "ignore and replace". It might seem that way, and that is part of what we do, but there is more direct engagement with the "replacement" part in the mind, and there are other aspects as well. (And I'm not really comfortable just saying "ignore" ... in some sense we do the opposite of ignoring it). Asceticism is a big part of that, subduing the flesh. Taking part in the Sacraments helps as well, and there is no Freudian counterpart.

This would honestly require an indepth conversation to really get into. And it's something I would enjoy. But I can't be "the expert". I can maybe give a few answers and point to a few things, but I'm not a master of this. I wish I knew it better, and I just might renter the field professionally. I just don't know if I am not already too old to be thinking that way.

So I'm up for it, but not sure I'm able - the conversation, I mean.

It's OK. Thanks for the feedback. God Bless!

 

[YCGP]

In recovery we are taught to use 'thought stopping" techniques. One is to imagine a big red stop sign when you catch yourself thinking of using. You then move on to something else. They never tell us that it is simply being stuffed away and that it will explode later.

Thought it is important to note that in recovery, it is believed that we will fight against our addiction (and the thoughts we are stopping) for the rest of our lives.

Perhaps this is the same with all desires.

What do you believe?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wish I could well explain the distinction.

When we are tempted, or a thought comes up, we should stop it.

I think repression more suggests ignoring and denial.

We are taught instead to be fully aware of our thoughts, to recognize at least what kind of thought they are (but not to obsess over certain elements unfruitful to analyze). Those that represent temptations or otherwise are a problem should not be interacted with but stopped, yes. And there are competing thoughts that can be cultivated to combat those tendencies and retrain ourselves. All of this is with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course. And what I offer here is perhaps too oversimplified.

 

[truefiction1]

How do you overcome a desire without attempting to repress it? Doesn't it become repressed automatically when we ignore and substitute other activities in its place? Perhaps we should define repression?



According to this theory the repressed thought or discarded thoughts will cause anxiety and neurotic symptoms. Based on my personal experience in ignoring such thoughts or discarding them I can say that all I experienced was a profound sense of peace. So if indeed these rejected tendencies and thoughts harass others it must be those who do not have the help of God's Holy Spirit which prevents such a thing from happening.

John 14:27 (NIV)

27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

In Orthodox psychotherapy, these problematic thoughts and feelings are redirected by the person to a different part within themselves, and this process, when successfully repeated enough times, builds new pathways that transform problematic thoughts and feelings into virtues. Old, habitual (sinful) processes are stopped so that new (virtuous) habitual processes can emerge.

 

[Chesterton]

IMO, repression is a materialistic idea that the mind is contained in the brain, and the brain is like a container which holds memories and desires as physical things that for some physical reason want to express themselves, like water "wants" to run downhill. It seems like this has been refuted by modern brain science, which has shown pretty definitively that memories are not stored in the brain. Likewise, no storage place for desires.

Thought it is important to note that in recovery, it is believed that we will fight against our addiction (and the thoughts we are stopping) for the rest of our lives.

Perhaps this is the same with all desires.

What do you believe?

I think it's true in only a very minor way that you struggle your whole life. Time heals things, and just like when you have a broken heart, and you strongly desire the person that you no longer have, it feels like the pain and the desire are going to last forever, but it doesn't, so long as you persevere one day at a time. The addiction slowly dies like a sick demon, and the desire becomes a faint memory that almost never enters the mind unless you let it. You can look forward to a day when you don't have to struggle, and you can be normal and healthy.

 

[stavros388]

It seems like this has been refuted by modern brain science, which has shown pretty definitively that memories are not stored in the brain

Hmm, my recent reading of modern neuroscience demonstrates the very opposite understanding, that memories are absolutely stored in the brain. Can you please direct me to some of this modern science that you claim refutes such a view? Thanks!

 

[Chesterton]

Hmm, my recent reading of modern neuroscience demonstrates the very opposite understanding, that memories are absolutely stored in the brain. Can you please direct me to some of this modern science that you claim refutes such a view? Thanks!

Maybe I should have said "not stored in one particular region of the brain" as I tried to indicate with the closet comparison. I don't know where to find the science, I'm going by conversations I had with some neuroscientists and neurosurgeons, because my mom had severe Alzheimer's and also needed brain surgery, so I asked them a lot of questions. They were saying that what's being shown is that memory might be more like an electron, existing throughout the neural matirx everywhere and nowhere at once. But you can Google up articles like these below - one about an experiment showing that memory's not stored in a neuron's synapse as once thought, and two of them about experiments showing plants have memory despite having no brains.

Lost memories might be able to be restored, new UCLA study indicates

Learning by Association in Plants : Scientific Reports

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...emember-this-one-seems-to-heres-the-evidence/