I detest the chapter breaks that have been added to our Bibles! They nearly always disrupt the flow of thought, and lend to a sound-bite theology. Sometimes, they seem to be inserted at random, with no regard for what constitutes a logical unit.
To be honest, I've never probed the topic very deeply. I know the who and the when, but have no idea of the why or the how.Is there a book (readable to a (very) lay person) on how that was decided? That would be interesting to learn, how/what they were thinking when they did that. And found on a city's library shelf? (I just can't afford books.)
To be honest, I've never probed the topic very deeply. I know the who and the when, but have no idea of the why or the how.
This article contains a decent summary of what happened. I'll let you know if I find anything about the reasoning or the circunstances.
It was the Archbishop of Canterbury who created the chapter divisions in 1227. I have no idea what rationale or methodology he employed.
The versification was created by a rabbi a couple hundred years later. But, again, I have no idea regarding his approach, either. He seems to have adopted the Christian chapter breaks, for the most part. There are only a handful of passages were he deviated, while inserting his own verse divisions in the Tanakh.
Interestingly, I see this letter, and specifically both chapters 12 & 13 in 2Cor, as written by Paul to defend his apostolic status & ministry. Apparently, the Corinthians (and believers in Asia Minor) were questioning him & his credentials (13:3, cf 1:8-10, 3:1, 10:5-12, 12:15, 12:19, 13:6,7, 13:10, 2Tim 2:15), after the apostles (11:5, 18, 22-23) sent a competing gospel message (11:2-33) of trust & obedience (11:12,15,18). He presents himself and his multiple presences as proof of his ministry (13:1-2).You can't pay attention to chapter divisions which are not part of the original letters. Look back at 2 Cor 12:18 for the other two.I desired Titus, and with [him] I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? [walked we] not in the same steps?
Interestingly, I see both chapters 12 & 13 in 2Cor as written by Paul to defend his apostolic status & ministry. Apparently, the Corinthians were questioning him & his credentials (13:3, cf 12:15, 12:19, 13:6,7, 13:10). He presents himself and his multiple presences as proof of his ministry (13:1-2).
I don't think that 2Cor 13:1 was referring to 12:18. In the immediate context of 13:1 & 2, he uses such words as "third time", "previously said," "say beforehand", "present the second time", etc. He was referring to himself. Also, there is no evidence that Titus nor the unknown brother were first-hand witnesses to Paul's apostolic commissioning.
Paul presents the following allegations as proof of his apostleship:
1. 12:1-6: a claim that he was brought into heaven,
2. 12:7-10: a claim that he was not only persecuted by the Corinthians in their allegations (v10), but also by a demon (v7). Interestingly, he didn't have the power to cast it out, even though such power was given to the Apostles by Messiah (Lk 10:19, Mt 10:1).
3. 12:11: a claim that he should have been exalted like the other apostles
4. 12:12: a claim that he performed signs, wonders, and powers as evidence of his apostleship, even though Messiah stated that this was not evidence of such (Mt 24:24).
5. 13:1-2: a claim that he taught them multiple times, and this thus fulfills the need for two or more witnesses.
In 12:13-18, by Paul's statement, we can infer that the Corinthians were possibly claiming that Paul & his associates took advantage of them. He claims that he speaks for Elohim in Messiah (v19). He perceives their rejection of him as strife, jealousy, wraths, factions, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, and tumults (v20). He threatens repercussions against those who rebel against him (13:2). He tells them to test themselves that they are actually in Messiah, and frightens them with the possibility that Messiah is not in them if they fail certain tests (13:5), even though Paul himself might appear as if he failed such tests (13:7)!
To be honest, I've never probed the topic very deeply. I know the who and the when, but have no idea of the why or the how.
This article contains a decent summary of what happened. I'll let you know if I find anything about the reasoning or the circunstances.
It was the Archbishop of Canterbury who created the chapter divisions in 1227. I have no idea what rationale or methodology he employed.
The versification was created by a rabbi a couple hundred years later. But, again, I have no idea regarding his approach, either. He seems to have adopted the Christian chapter breaks, for the most part. There are only a handful of passages were he deviated, while inserting his own verse divisions in the Tanakh.
Tehillim definitely evidences this tendency in several places. This often occurs when the Jewish tradition includes the superscription as part of the text, and assigns it a verse number.In a number of places the earlier and latter parts of The Book are one verse number out - either with each other in their numbering and/ or in the logical reading of the passages. Not sure how / why this came about but it does account for some very odd beginnings and endings to sections of text.
Not sure what you mean by 7 seperate letters along with "top and tail". Can you elaborate? ThksSome scholars see 1 & 2 Corinthians as 7 separate letters for which the 'top and tail' greetings / salutations have been largely lost except those currently shown.
Not sure what you mean by 7 seperate letters along with "top and tail". Can you elaborate? Thks
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Not sure what you mean by 7 seperate letters along with "top and tail". Can you elaborate? Thks
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It is interesting and something to consider...and by the way, "Tortured for Christ" is truly an amazing readYES.....what Yusuphhai is experiencing is amazing and rare indeed......I remember reading "Tortured for Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand. He stated that in the Gulag......whether one is Protestant or Catholic or Jehovah Witness or Mormon or whatever.....is irrelevant..............persecuted Christians tend to be able to love each other and connect with each other and give each other some respect for their courage that is forged in fire......that non-persecuted Christians and Messianic Jews seem to have a terrible time understanding how to do??????????
United in Christ takes time to walk out in reality.YES.....what Yusuphhai is experiencing is amazing and rare indeed......I remember reading "Tortured for Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand. He stated that in the Gulag......whether one is Protestant or Catholic or Jehovah Witness or Mormon or whatever.....is irrelevant..............persecuted Christians tend to be able to love each other and connect with each other and give each other some respect for their courage that is forged in fire......that non-persecuted Christians and Messianic Jews seem to have a terrible time understanding how to do??????????
Having a lot of events that build team and common ground, like simply fellowshipping and living life togethe, can really do a lot as it concerns unitychurch I take part in on Sunday is a protestant church(most Chinese underground churches are protestant or of local opinion or both). The leader personally likes the church style of Romanism before Catholic but I know also many protestant Christians dislikes it or think it had some mistakes. If this church can be tolerant and kind to different opinion, friendship can be continuous. Generally I would tell them I am from Orient Abrahamic faith background.
Have a blessed Sukkot!
Yusuph Hai
How is this uplifting the MJ perspective.?Easy G (G²);61612273 said:It is interesting and something to consider...and by the way, "Tortured for Christ" is truly an amazing readPowerful to see the attitude that man went through for the Lord.
IMHO, it should never be the "point" for the body of Christ in any parts to absorb and obliterate all diversity of opinion, but rather we can have unity within that diversity: by realizing that our unity doesn't come from uniformity, but from a shared experience under the crucified and risen Messiah:
There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to one hope when you were calledone Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.You know that you may be interested in hitting up one of my brothers in the Lord named Lionel Woods---as he's one of my dear brothers in the Lord and I've dialouged with him on a myriad of occasions. We're vastly different theologically and yet we love one another deeply in the Lord and are pretty much on the same page when it comes to trying to keep the main thing the main thing. And as he said best in Lowest Common Denominator: A Case For An Ecumenical Hope ( ):
-Ephesians 4.4-6
Pray that it blessed you, Bruh....One of my favorite subjects in school was Math! I loved it, the numbers came easy, I used to be in the little math contest in school and actually was allowed to participate in a special program in 7th and 8th grades in which I went to a special school for math and took the SAT for placement in a special program in high school. I did well in Jr. High, but if you look at my testimony, well high school didnt go to well and I was later removed! Anyway, back in 3rd, 4th grade we learned Common Denominators. The objective was this to find out what a group of numbers had in common. Such as in the picture above you want to find a multiple that you can divide a group of numbers into and the objective is to find the lowest possible number: 2,3,4,6=12!
You probably know by now and by the title that 4th grade math is not my objective in this post. So what is? Let me ask how often do you ask the following questions whats your eschatology, whats your polity, what do you believe about the gifts, whats your position on baptism, is it a Covenant of Grace or Works (neither LOL), Calvinism? Arminian?, Southern Baptist or Methodist? Emerging or Pentecostalism?
At our Sunday Morning group we have been studying through Corinthians. After reading and rereading the book and attempting to Chart the book (charting is a way to summarize a book, I will attempt to attach something at the bottom) and get a one theme title I came up withA Peace Treaty of Love. The protagonist and antagonist of the book of Corinth is division and unity!
There is but one church in all of Corinth or at least this is what many commentators say. So as you read the book all of this is going on Under One Roof! The apostolic alignment, the secret knowledge, the dude with his stepmother (some wanted to extend grace others knew there was a problem), there is division on head coverings, division at the Table where unity is the focus, there is division on gifts, there is division on tongues, there is division on silence on women, there is division on the resurrection and there is division on baptism for the dead. To put it simply Paul asks Is Christ Divided (which I believe to be a key to the entire epistle).
Chapter 13 is Pauls resolution. Again remember all of this is happening in one gathering. If this is true, this would make a church split look like a wedding! So what is Pauls remedy? To show that we are Christs body (Chapter 12) which answers the question Is Christ divided and without love (Chapter 13) EVERYTHING we do is worthless as a matter of fact he says your are no one! So we can do a bunch of nothing and do it with all of our energy, we can do it and be labeled successful in this world, you can be invited to conferences, can write hundreds of books, can exposit the text with surgeon like precision but without love you are nothing and what you do profits nothing.
So let me add to that!
Schisms/Divisions/Divisiveness (Galatians 5)/Sectarianism all are the opposite of love! So can our energized pursuit of exclusiveness or spiritualcentricity actually be what Paul calls nothing?! Absolutely. Let me say this. To look for something to divide on, to find ways where we are different (for the reason to disengage) to have the heart to deal with who Christ has redeemed indifferently to continually have a sectarian all or nothing Christianity is to be outside of the Spirit of God. It is to grieve the Spirit, it is to answer Pauls question to the Corinths is Christ divided with an emphatic yes! Yes, yes Paul we are divided and we are proud of it!
Paul says something that is another key to unity in 1 Corinthians 15 where I want to rest at:
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.Unity is found in the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! That He was born, that He died for our sins and that He rose from the dead and upon raising appeared to the disciples and later to Paul. This is our Gospel the one and only Gospel. Those other distinctive, as biblical as you think they may be are contrary to Pauls Gospel! Yes you heard me correctly. So let me scream it. YOUR DISTINCTIVES ARE CONTRARY TO PAULS GOSPEL! Why? Pauls Gospel unifies because Christ unifies (Col 3, Eph 2, John 17). Christ came that we may be one, our disctintives split us! If disunity comes by them then what we are doing is not of God regardless of how well you can defend it biblically (truth be told we both can come to the same scriptures and be 100% divided on the same text using languages or not).
I am fighting for an Ecumenical hope! Yes, you may be convinced that your little theological club is correct (shoot I do) but if that club becomes exclusive and becomes THE CLUB then what you have done is taking a machete to Christs body. You have divided the indivisible Christ! You have pulled the arm of Jesus off and I will let you know that such a division is of Satan not of the Living and Holy God revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
I close with this. Christ is not divided because He is indivisable! He is one there is one Lord, one Faith, one baptism Ephesians 4 makes this clear! Jesus only made one new man Jesus does not endorse any dividing walls! Jesus does not cosign our zeal to divide and to uphold truth (dont go quoting John 14:6). Jesus prayer proves this beyond a shadow of doubt I pray that they are one. Who are we to counteract Jesus??!! Paul also makes a plea in the Philippian Church in chapter 2 verse one. I leave you with this verse of one accordness! Being Ecumenical is the heart of Jesus Christ and divisiveness is of the Evil one!
2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Often, it seems that in everywhere else but the West there seems to be a desire for Unity---but that may be due to how the circumstances are radically different than in the West where we're often given so much room to disagree that we don't care to actually discuss/focus on keeping the main thing the main thing and learning how to Glorify Christ and the Centrality of the Gospel.
Conversation that leads toward Biblical Unity seems to often happen under strict circumstances. And As my dear brother in the Lord said best, from his site entitled Agonizing Over Church Membership/Fellowship ( )
____________________________________I have a theory. Or should I say a premise? The theory or premise is that persecution eliminates or, at the very least, diminishes division in the body of Christ.
Lets say that tomorrow it was declared that all U.S. citizens who professed to be Christians had to report to the nearest major sports facility (coliseum, remember the one in Rome in the first century?) to be interviewed by the government. Lets say that the ones who did not report were turned in by those who knew that they professed to be Christians and then were rounded up by law enforcement. So lets take it for granted that they got all professing Christians together in each individual county. Lets say that the initial interview consisted of threats of death if you held true to your faith. Now lets assume that every member of every group which is considered a cult group refused to affirm Christ as Savior and Lord and escaped. So after days of interviews, everyone who held firm ends up on their respective areas football field, baseball diamond or basketball court. Now let me ask a few questions:
1. Would there only be Calvinist there? Only Arminians? Or how about only Cessasionist? Or only Charismatics? Or only Trinitarians? Or only Oneness?Why cant this happen every Sunday while were safe and sound? Why cant a brother who is not a 5 point Calvinist stand and give an exhortation in your church (Dr. White or you who are reading this)? Why cant he be a member of your church? Is it because its more your church than Christ?
2. Would we be surprised to see that brother or sister who holds that other position there? If so, would you believe that their martydom meant absolutely nothing because they believed in tithing? or baptized babies? or thought they chose Christ?
3. Would there be any theological debates going on? Or would anybody be preaching an Are you sure your saved sermon?
4. Would we clique up in our groups that day? Would we care so dearly about our denominational distinctives? Would the blacks be only with the blacks and the whites only with the whites and so on?
5. If that brother or sister standing near you began to pray and suddenly broke out in tongues, would you move away? Or would you join hands with them and just pray the way you pray?
6. If they allowed us to have our bibles (a miracle it would be in itself) would we argue over which version was the correct one?
7. Would anyone be monitoring what another had on?
8. WOULD WE HAVE UNPRECEDENTED AND UNPREJUDICED FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER?
I believe we would. And that is my point. How can all of these things suddenly be a non-issue in the face of death? How is it that all I would suddenly be able to see in you is another brother or sister in Christ? There would be no interviews to see if you would affirm some ancient creed or confession, would there? We would be encouraging one another to stand firm in the face of death while we anticipate the joy of seeing our Saviour face-to-face!
Somebody needs to help me with this dilemna. What am I missing here?
Unless it's not MJ talking on the need for unity in the faith/supporting one another and discussing how persecution tends to unite others, there's really no issue to be made. Of course, if you have an issue, define MJ perspective and show where MJs have not already noted the same (in light of where many have noted the same thing multiple times already)...be it on persecution or not causing divisions where Christ never warranted or the mentioning of the book "Tortured for Christ" by Rev. Richard Wurmbrand (who is known in differing Messianic Jewish circles due to how he spoke in them often as an international Messianic Jewish leader in the body, more here and here)...and it was in light of what Dennis noted on Richard's book on his experiences of being tortured during the Communist regime, as it was his focus on who Christ really was across all lines that helped him in his work for spreading the Gospel. From the USA he organised and controlled an underground missionary network covering all the Communist countries and later spreading to the Arab world, Asia, Africa and Latin America. Through his organisation he even reached the most remote islands in the Pacific Ocean.How is this uplifting the MJ perspective.?
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