How do Protestants answer this...

[Lotar]

How do you answer charges that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but fufill it?

He said that not one letter of the Torah would disappear until the end, so we can't just write everything off except the 10 commandments.

Matthew 5:17-18

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

I suppose you would bring up St Paul's teachings about grace and how we aren't under the Law anymore. But how does that reconcile with what Jesus said about the Law and the Prophets not passing away until Heaven and Earth pass away?

Cheers

The distinction needs to be made between the Law and the ceremonial law. The first we are still applicable, the second scripture plainly says is not.

Not being under the Law and fullfilling the Law are not contradictions. The purpose of the Law is to condemn, the purpose of the Gospel is to save. Without Christ we are under the Law and need to obey it to be saved, but even if we outwardly obey it, we sin in our hearts. With Christ we are no longer under the Law, and instead are under grace, but since we now love God and have faith in Him, we can not only obey the Law outwardly but inwardly as well, thus fullfilling the Law.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,



Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

BBAS

 

[Svt4Him]

How do you answer charges that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but fufill it?

He said that not one letter of the Torah would disappear until the end, so we can't just write everything off except the 10 commandments.

Matthew 5:17-18

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

I suppose you would bring up St Paul's teachings about grace and how we aren't under the Law anymore. But how does that reconcile with what Jesus said about the Law and the Prophets not passing away until Heaven and Earth pass away?

Cheers

Jesus came in the fullness of the law, not to fulfill it. Bad translation. But we aren't under the law anymore if that's what you're getting at. The law is for unrighteous people.

 

[puriteen18]

The distinction needs to be made between the Law and the ceremonial law. The first we are still applicable, the second scripture plainly says is not.

Not being under the Law and fullfilling the Law are not contradictions. The purpose of the Law is to condemn, the purpose of the Gospel is to save. Without Christ we are under the Law and need to obey it to be saved, but even if we outwardly obey it, we sin in our hearts. With Christ we are no longer under the Law, and instead are under grace, but since we now love God and have faith in Him, we can not only obey the Law outwardly but inwardly as well, thus fullfilling the Law.

I agree, completely.

How do you answer charges that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but fufill it?

Well, as Lotar said there is a difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law.

The ceremonial law is no longer needed because Jesus was the only true sacrifice. Now that He has come, we need not follow after the shadows of the old covenant because He has revealed the reality.

The dietary law were abolished in the New Testament.
_________________________________

If you will notice the sum of the Law which our Lord gave us is just that, a summary of the two tablets of the Law.

Love God-

1 Have no other gods
2 Make no graven image
3 Do not take His Name in vain
4 Keep the Sabbath day (now the Lord's Day) holy

Love neighbor-

5 Honor Parents
6 Do not take another's life
7 Do not commit adultery
8 Do not steal
9 Do not lie
10 Do not covet


Also, the moral parts of the Levitical law seem to me to be an expounding on the 10 commandments, and therefore still apply.

Other than this the only other laws that I believe are still around is the keeping from drunkeness and the one on cutting or tatooing the body, and this is because it is commanded in the Law and would seem to compliment the Christian doctrine that the believer's body is the temple of God.


We have to remember that the Law does not save, and on the other hand those whom God has saved have the Law written on their hearts.

Obedience is an affect of salvation, not the other way around.

Hope that all made sense.

 

[Mr Tom]

A lot of the law has been backed up by Jesus though...

Do not worship any other gods besides me

Jesus said : You must worship the Lord your God, serve only Him

Do not make false idols

Jesus said : No one can serve two masters

Do not mis-use the name of the Lord

Jesus said : If you say "By Heaven!" it is a sacred vow because Heaven is God's throne

Remember to observe the sabbath day by keeping it holy

Jesus : THe Sabbath was made to benefit people

Honour your father and mother

Jesus : If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine

Do not murder

Jesus : If you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgement!

Do not commit adultery

Jesus : Do not lust

Do not steal

Jesus : If the court orders your shirt, give them your coat

Do not give false testimonies

Jesus : You must give an account on judgement day of every idle word you speak

Do not covet your neighbours house, wife, servant, or anything they own

Jesus : Do not be greedy for what you don't have

Ok I got lazy towards the end there, but if you look at most of the original OT 10 commandment laws, Jesus has actually given them even MORE meaning and made them even more strict! He definitely came to lay down the law, but at the same time, offered forgiveness

 

[Phoebe]

(I only skimmed through posts.)
I see it also that Christ fulfilled the sacrificial laws.

 

[momof3blessings]

I have been studing this exact thing in a Bible study on the tabernacle of the OT and the one that lies within us. I've also been studying if for personal reasons a family member telling me that we should live under the old rules. Jesus perfected the law. Some Bibles say finished it's the same thing. I like perfected personally.
I know there is more but this is as far as I've gotten sorry if I've repeated anything anyone else is posted
For you ladies the study is A women's heart God's dwelling place by Beth Moore

Hebrews 7 is good explanation I'll post it below. I posted the whole thing but it really starts in 7:11



7:1 Now this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, met Abraham as he was returning from defeating the kings and blessed him.1 7:2 To him2 also Abraham apportioned a tithe3 of everything.4 His name first means5 king of righteousness, then king of Salem, that is, king of peace. 7:3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, he has neither beginning of days nor end of life but is like the son of God, and he remains a priest for all time. 7:4 But see how great he must be, if6 Abraham the patriarch gave him a tithe7 of his plunder. 7:5 And those of the sons of Levi who receive the priestly office8 have authorization according to the law to collect a tithe from the people, that is, from their fellow countrymen,9 although they too are descendants of Abraham.10 7:6 But Melchizedek11 who does not share their ancestry12 collected a tithe13 from Abraham and blessed14 the one who possessed the promise. 7:7 Now without dispute the inferior is blessed by the superior, 7:8 and in one case tithes are received by mortal men, while in the other by him who is affirmed to be alive. 7:9 And it could be said that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid a tithe through Abraham. 7:10 For he was still in his ancestor Abraham’s loins15 when Melchizedek met him. Jesus and the Priesthood of Melchizedek

7:11 So if perfection had in fact been possible through the Levitical priesthood—for on that basis16 the people received the law—what further need would there have been for another priest to arise, said to be in the order of Melchizedek and not in Aaron’s order? 7:12 For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come17 as well. 7:13 Yet the one these things are spoken about belongs to18 a different tribe, and no one from that tribe19 has ever officiated at the altar. 7:14 For it is clear that our Lord is descended from Judah, yet Moses said nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. 7:15 And this is even clearer if another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 7:16 who has become a priest not by a legal regulation about physical descent20 but by the power of an indestructible life. 7:17 For here is the testimony about him:21 “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”22 7:18 On the one hand a former command is set aside23 because it is weak and useless,24 7:19 for the law made nothing perfect. On the other hand a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. 7:20 And since25 this was not done without a sworn affirmation—for the others have become priests without a sworn affirmation, 7:21 but Jesus26 did so27 with a sworn affirmation by the one who said to him, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever’”28— 7:22 accordingly Jesus has become the guarantee29 of a better covenant. 7:23 And the others30 who became priests were numerous, because death prevented them31 from continuing in office,32 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently since he lives forever. 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 7:26 For it is indeed fitting for us to have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separate from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 7:27 He has no need to do every day what those priests do, to offer sacrifices first for their own sins and then for the sins of the people, since he did this in offering himself once for all. 7:28 For the law appoints as high priests men subject to weakness,33 but the word of solemn affirmation that came after the law appoints a son made perfect forever.

Guess I have to split this it was to long

 

[FreeinChrist]

Another point here...

The Law pointed to Christ and Christ fulfilled what the Law pointed to.

He was the perfect Passover Lamb.

The Holy Place had one door. Jesus is the door we must enter to be saved (John 10:9)

There was a table of shewbread in the Holy place - Jesus is the the bread of Life (John 6:35)

On the Day of Atonement, one goat was released and one goat was sacrificed - Barrabus was released, Jesus was crucified.

On the Day of Atonement, the bull was sacriificed 'outside the camp' - Jesus was sacrificed 'outside the camp' at Calvary.

In the Holy Place was a 7 branched candle - Jesus is the light of men (John 1:4)

Separating the Holy of Holies from the Holy place was a veil through which only the High Priest could go once a year. The writer of Hebrews points out that Jesus entered a better Holy of Holies through the veil - His flesh. (Hebrews 10:20) He is our High Priest, one who holds His preisthood forever and ever.

I think the book of Hebrews does a wonderful job of showing how Jesus fulfilled the Law. Because He did - He is the mediator of a better covenant, based on better promises, through a sacrifice made with better blood taken into the better sanctuary (in heaven) by the better High Priest (Jesus), a High Preist who holds His prieisthood forever and who did not have to sacrifice for His own sin.

 

[momof3blessings]

Galations talks about the law too...
Jews and Gentiles are Justified by Faith

2:15 We are Jews by birth47 and not Gentile sinners,48 2:16 yet we know49 that no one50 is justified by the works of the law51 but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.52 And53 we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ54 and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one55 will be justified. 2:17 But if while seeking to be justified in Christ we ourselves have also been found to be sinners, is Christ then one who encourages56 sin? Absolutely not! 2:18 But if I build up again those things I once destroyed,57 I demonstrate that I am one who breaks God’s law.58 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ,59 and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So60 the life I now live in the body,61 I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God,62 who loved me and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not set aside63 God’s grace, because if righteousness64 could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!65
Galatians 3


Justification by Law or by Faith?



3:1 You1 foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell2 on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed3 as crucified! 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law4 or by believing what you heard?5 3:3 Are you so foolish? Although you began6 with7 the Spirit, are you now trying to finish8 by human effort?9 3:4 Have you suffered so many things for nothing? —if indeed it was for nothing. 3:5 Does God then give10 you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law11 or by your believing what you heard?12

3:6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,13 3:7 so then, understand14 that those who believe are the sons of Abraham.15 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time,16 saying, “All the nations17 will be blessed in you.”18 3:9 So then those who believe19 are blessed along with Abraham the believer. 3:10 For all who20 rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.”21 3:11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith.22 3:12 But the law is not based on faith,23 but the one who does the works of the law24 will live by them.25 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming26 a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)27 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles,28 so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith. Inheritance Comes from Promises and not Law



3:15 Brothers and sisters,29 I offer an example from everyday life:30 When a covenant31 has been ratified,32 even though it is only a human contract, no one can set it aside or add anything to it. 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant.33 Scripture34 does not say, “and to the descendants,”35 referring to many, but “and to your descendant,”36 referring to one, who is Christ. 3:17 What I am saying is this: The law that came four hundred thirty years later does not cancel a covenant previously ratified by God,37 so as to invalidate the promise. 3:18 For if the inheritance is based on the law, it is no longer based on the promise, but God graciously gave38 it to Abraham through the promise.

3:19 Why then was the law given?39 It was added40 because of transgressions,41 until the arrival of the descendant42 to whom the promise had been made. It was administered43 through angels by an intermediary.44 3:20 Now an intermediary is not for one party alone, but God is one.45 3:21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God?46 Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.47 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned48 everything and everyone49 under sin so that the promise could be given—because of the faithfulness50 of Jesus Christ—to those who believe. Sons of God Are Heirs of Promise

3:23 Now before faith51 came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners52 until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian53 until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous54 by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.55 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.56 3:27 For all of you who57 were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave58 nor free, there is neither male nor female59—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants,60 heirs according to the promise.

 

[momof3blessings]

Galatians 4





4:1 Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor,1 is no different from a slave, though he is the owner2 of everything. 4:2 But he is under guardians3 and managers until the date set by his4 father. 4:3 So also we, when we were minors,5 were enslaved under the basic forces6 of the world. 4:4 But when the appropriate time7 had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights.8 4:6 And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls9 “Abba!10 Father!” 4:7 So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are11 a son, then you are also an heir through God.12 Heirs of Promise Are Not to Return to Law



4:8 Formerly when you did not know God, you were enslaved to beings that by nature are not gods at all.13 4:9 But now that you have come to know God (or rather to be known by God), how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless14 basic forces?15 Do you want to be enslaved to them all over again?16 4:10 You are observing religious17 days and months and seasons and years. 4:11 I fear for you that my work for you may have been in vain. 4:12 I beg you, brothers and sisters,18 become like me, because I have become like you. You have done me no wrong! Personal Appeal of Paul



4:13 But you know it was because of a physical illness that I first proclaimed the gospel to you, 4:14 and though my physical condition put you to the test, you did not despise or reject me.19 Instead, you welcomed me as though I were an angel of God,20 as though I were Christ Jesus himself!21 4:15 Where then is your sense of happiness22 now? For I testify about you that if it were possible, you would have pulled out your eyes and given them to me! 4:16 So then, have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?23

4:17 They court you eagerly,24 but for no good purpose;25 they want to exclude you, so that you would seek them eagerly.26 4:18 However, it is good27 to be sought eagerly28 for a good purpose29 at all times, and not only when I am present with you. 4:19 My children—I am again undergoing birth pains until Christ is formed in you!30 4:20 I wish I could be with you now and change my tone of voice,31 because I am perplexed about you. An Appeal from Allegory



4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law?32 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the33 slave woman and the other by the free woman. 4:23 But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent,34 while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise. 4:24 These things may be treated as an allegory,35 for these women represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. 4:25 Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free,36 and she is our mother. 4:27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren woman who does not bear children;37

break forth and shout, you who have no birth pains,

because the children of the desolate woman are more numerous

than those of the woman who has a husband.”38 4:28 But you,39 brothers and sisters,40 are children of the promise like Isaac. 4:29 But just as at that time the one born by natural descent41 persecuted the one born according to the Spirit,42 so it is now. 4:30 But what does the scripture say? “Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son”43 of the free woman. 4:31 Therefore, brothers and sisters,44 we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman.
Galations 5
Freedom of the Believer
5:1 For freedom1 Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke2 of slavery. 5:2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you at all! 5:3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey3 the whole law. 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous4 by the law have been alienated5 from Christ; you have fallen away from grace! 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait expectantly for the hope of righteousness. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight—the only thing that matters is faith working through love.6
5:7 You were running well; who prevented you from obeying7 the truth? 5:8 This persuasion8 does not come from the one who calls you! 5:9 A little yeast makes the whole batch of dough rise!9 5:10 I am confident10 in the Lord that you will accept no other view.11 But the one who is confusing12 you will pay the penalty,13 whoever he may be. 5:11 Now, brothers and sisters,14 if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted?15 In that case the offense of the cross16 has been removed.17 5:12 I wish those agitators18 would go so far as to19 castrate themselves!20

 

[theseed]

The Messianics use this to say the Torah is still in effect

Then they must keep the entire Law, right? Which is impossible because there is no temple, they can't keep all 613 mitzvahs