How do opossums fit into evolution?

[Loudmouth]

So, it doesn't really matter what animal or behavior one is talking about, the answer is always the same.

That is kind of the point. The theory of evolution does not apply to some species. It applies to all species.

One day, one possum decided to give falling over and making himself stink a try - he doesn't know why he tried it, there was just something different in his instinct - and viola', he survived and passed on that instinct.

Most people are indicating that it is not a learned behavior but an instinctual one. Therefore, this behavior is a product of DNA. We know that mutations change DNA, therefore mutations are capable of changing instinctual behavior. Changes that are beneficial will be selected for.

 

[Loudmouth]

Good, then let's do that.


And I have also shown that the children of parents with mutations do not necessarily carry that same mutation as their parents.

But the alleles they do have come from their parents. Children also carry mutations not found in either parent. Those are mutations that occurred in the sperm or egg. These are not repaired nor are they reversed.

Therefore, one cannot say dogmatically that just because a mutation does occur in any given species will that mean that it will always carry on to the next generation as the offspring will always be pulling from two sets of information, not just the one mutated side.

However, 50% of offspring (on average) will carry this mutation if it is not lethal. If I remember correctly, this is the case for achondroplasia (i.e. dwarfism). A zygote with two copies of the dwarfism gene will not develop into a viable fetus. Only zygotes with one or none will be viable.

If there is a mutation, then there is a chance for it to be rectified by pulling from the other parent's information, by cell suicide, or irreversible cell dormancy.

Huh? This makes no sense. There is no going back. Once the egg and sperm combine their genetic material that is it. That is the genome for that offspring.

Evos want to say that mutations happen as often as a blink, but there are many safeguards in place to make sure that those mutations don't take over a body that seem to be ignored by evos.

We OBSERVE that children are born with about 100 mutations not found in their mother or father. This is an OBSERVATION. It is not an assumption.

Mutations happen all the time. Elephant man. Turtle boy. Two toed people of Africa. What's your point?

Don't forget about instinctual behavior in opossums.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Our dogs, which would have chased any living animal ignored them. This strategy works very well with many predators but is spectacularly unsuccessful with automobiles.

So oppossum/oppossums/oppossumi deserve to go the way of the dinosaur and dodo? I'll get right on that. I have no idea how they fit into evolution, but possum fit into a large sized pot pretty easily.

 

[NailsII]

But how would that trait first appear? What would cause that trait to make itself manifest in an animal? How could such an involuntary, non-learned behavior become part of even the first opossum's defense mechanism repertoire?

One thing that is apparent in nature is that often a striking trait (be it colour, pattern or behaviour) often has intermediates found in other species - sometimes these organisms are not apparently closely related, but this isn't a problem either, as I will explain later.

Firstly, we are looking at the striking example of a certain marsupial which plays dead quite successfully. How could this have evolved?
It may be obvious to say that such a behaviour is unlikely to be the result of a single mutation or other one-off change in DNA, so can we see comparable behaviour in other animals?

Yes.

Have you ever seen a human frozen with fear?

We have already established that other animals become temporarily paralysed by fear, and I summised that this may be an advantage as most visual systems are primed for movement.

i don't think it is unlikely that opposum behaviour is just an extreme form of this freezing behaviour; it may be that the fear of predation completely overwhelms them to the point of shock which actually stimulates a coma-like state, complete with relaxing of the bowels.

What is clear is that this strategy works, is inherited, there are similar behaviours found in nature (which could be described as intermediates, but they may not be - am not an expert in animal behaviour) - which as far as I can see satisfies the criteria of an evolved trait.

This sounds like a lesson in animal behavior, not evolution.

It's due to the evolution of animal behavior, sure. But not to biological evolution. The deer in the headlights is not due to biological evolution, it's just animal behavior.

Just where do you think animal behaviour comes from?

There is only two sources; it is either learned or inherited.
Inherited means DNA based, and as this isn't a learned behaviour it must be an inherited one.

Therefore it is crystal clear that behaviour really is a discussion about evolution.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Therefore it is crystal clear that behaviour really is a discussion about evolution.

Why aren't you teaching in law school? I can just see defense lawyers all over the country snatching up on this one. (How much could you sell the idea to the ACLU for?)

 

[sfs]

So oppossum/oppossums/oppossumi deserve to go the way of the dinosaur and dodo? I'll get right on that. I have no idea how they fit into evolution, but possum fit into a large sized pot pretty easily.

From Barney Miller:

Prisoner: I know why y'all locked me up. It's 'cause I'm from Arkansas.
Dietrich: Naw, we haven't enforced that in years.
Prisoner: You know, we like the same things as everybody else: a good cigar, a fine dinner, a nice glass of wine...
Dietrich: Red or white?
Prisoner: Depends.
Dietrich: With possum.
Prisoner: Red.
Dietrich: Thought so.

 

[NailsII]

Why aren't you teaching in law school? I can just see defense lawyers all over the country snatching up on this one. (How much could you sell the idea to the ACLU for?)

Maybe I've been watching too much courtroom drama recently....

 

[good brother]

Mutations happen, as well as recombination of parental genetic information. The point is this: sexual reproduction generates a lot of diversity. And it is this diversity that selection can act upon.

What we're talking about here are germline mutations, not mutations in a random stem cell or cell line. Only mutations in gametes (eggs, sperm) can be transmitted to future offspring. Sperm are constantly being generated in the testes of males, providing ample opportunity for the slight imperfections of DNA replication (it's not 100% perfect) to generate mutations and be passed on to offspring. Obviously detrimental mutations or problems assembling the DNA (like massive chromosomal imbalances) end pregnancies very quickly. Subtle things can make it through, though. And often times, subtle changes in DNA can alter traits.

And that's why opossums play dead. Mutations, followed by sexual reproduction, generated subtle diversity and variations in behavior in the populations. Turns out the ones that ran got eaten up and the ones that played dead stuck around. The ones that played dead made more babies. Thus, the ones that played dead took over the population.

Does that make sense? Let me know if you're having an issue understanding any of this. It's sometimes difficult to get the molecular biology concepts without formal training in the discipline.

I do have some questions for you, but I will wait until tomorrow to ask them as I will have more time then.


P.S. I sincerely apologize if I have saddened you in any way. That was not my intention. All my questions are sincere and honest and if any of my posts have come across as less than that or mean, I sincerely apologize.



In Christ, GB

 

[good brother]

From Barney Miller:

Prisoner: I know why y'all locked me up. It's 'cause I'm from Arkansas.
Dietrich: Naw, we haven't enforced that in years.
Prisoner: You know, we like the same things as everybody else: a good cigar, a fine dinner, a nice glass of wine...
Dietrich: Red or white?
Prisoner: Depends.
Dietrich: With possum.
Prisoner: Red.
Dietrich: Thought so.

Love it! Thank you. BTW, Have you ever had barbecued raccoon? It's pretty good really. I had a coworker who made a habit of picking up fresh roadkill (all true) and cooking it up. He brought some BBQ meat and buns in to work one day for us all to eat. He did tell us before hand what it was, and it was decent. It's no New York strip steak mind you, but it would beat going hungry any day of the week.

In Christ, GB

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Love it! Thank you. BTW, Have you ever had barbecued raccoon? It's pretty good really. I had a coworker who made a habit of picking up fresh roadkill (all true) and cooking it up. He brought some BBQ meat and buns in to work one day for us all to eat. He did tell us before hand what it was, and it was decent. It's no New York strip steak mind you, but it would beat going hungry any day of the week.

In Christ, GB

Hmm, I have a grill, and some coons that hang around there ...

 

[NailsII]

I had a coworker who made a habit of picking up fresh roadkill (all true) and cooking it up. He brought some BBQ meat and buns in to work one day for us all to eat.

Err....

How did he know it was fresh road kill?

Did he just stand by a abusy road and whatch them die, push them into the road or carry a thermometer and use their internal body temperature as an estimate of time fo death?

:o

Actually, i don't think I wanna know!

 

[good brother]

Err....

How did he know it was fresh road kill?

Did he just stand by a abusy road and whatch them die, push them into the road or carry a thermometer and use their internal body temperature as an estimate of time fo death?

:o

Actually, i don't think I wanna know!

It's not as bad as it sounds. There are many ways to tell if something is fresh or not. Rigormortis. Swelling. Absence or presence of insects. Foul smell. Have other scavangers been around? Is blood wet or dry.

I have never picked up road kill but I know people who have. I would be afraid of entrails being ruptured and polluting the meat.

GB

 

[pgp_protector]

It's not as bad as it sounds. There are many ways to tell if something is fresh or not. Rigormortis. Swelling. Absence or presence of insects. Foul smell. Have other scavangers been around? Is blood wet or dry.

I have never picked up road kill but I know people who have. I would be afraid of entrails being ruptured and polluting the meat.

GB

Well this thread too a turn for the.. um.... well lets just say it's headed in an interesting direction.

 

[CabVet]

It's not as bad as it sounds. There are many ways to tell if something is fresh or not. Rigormortis. Swelling. Absence or presence of insects. Foul smell. Have other scavangers been around? Is blood wet or dry.

I have never picked up road kill but I know people who have. I would be afraid of entrails being ruptured and polluting the meat.

GB

Let me ask you this, have you ever smelled an opossum? Did you really pay attention to them when they "play" dead?

When "playing possum", the animal's lips are drawn back, the teeth are bared, saliva foams around the mouth, the eyes close or half-close, and a foul-smelling fluid is secreted from the anal glands.

All of the above are signs of an animal that has been dead for awhile or died very sick. Most predators will avoid it. The "playing" is not a behavior per se, it is a physiological response like fainting.

 

[SkyWriting]

It was a little snarkily worded (as was your original post), but it a valid point, one that you have not addressed. You are arguing that playing dead makes no sense from an evolutionary perspective, but if your premises are correct, it also makes no sense from a creationist perspective.

But how is the predator to distinguish between prey that is lying perfectly still and a dead animal? The latter carries a substantial risk of either food poisoning from rotting flesh or disease. Do you eat carcasses you find lying around? This is not the kind of issue you can resolve just by applying common sense -- you have to know too much. What fraction of the time does a prey animal freeze? How often is it successful? What fraction of the predator's diet does that animal represent? How dangerous is eating carrion?

I'm not happy eating if they're still running.

 

[Jamin4422]

Err....

How did he know it was fresh road kill?

If it has been cooked in the sun and looks like Jerky then it is not longer considered to be fresh.

 

[Jamin4422]

I'm not happy eating if they're still running.

In Hong Kong they want their food still moving when they put it in the pan to cook it. When it quits moving, then it is ready to eat. They say if it has been dead for more then 20 min it is to late. They live longer in Hong Kong then any other country in the world.

 

[pgp_protector]

In Hong Kong they want their food still moving when they put it in the pan to cook it. When it quits moving, then it is ready to eat. They say if it has been dead for more then 20 min it is to late. They live longer in Hong Kong then any other country in the world.

You can always go for this then
Dancing squid bowl dish in Hakodate - YouTube
I do want to try this if I can find a place near me that serves it.

Spoiler: note

No, it's not really alive

 

[CabVet]

In Hong Kong they want their food still moving when they put it in the pan to cook it. When it quits moving, then it is ready to eat. They say if it has been dead for more then 20 min it is to late. They live longer in Hong Kong then any other country in the world.

Actually, the longest lived human population is that of Okinawa, Japan, and on average Japanese people live longer than those in Hong Kong.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I do want to try this if I can find a place near me that serves it.

You are a sick man!