How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Standing Up]

Mary devoted her life to serving God, in the persons of her Son, and His Father. She did not have a sexual relationship with any man.

Not according to scripture and tradition (Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem and others).

But this thread is about the visions. Not about Mary. The question is whether the visions reflect biblical truth or not.

Don't you agree if the real Mary appeared to anyone, she would point them to Christ as salvation, rather than to an entity called Immaculate Heart?

 

[Rhamiel]

Folks, again, the visions are real; they happened. The question is whether they are about the true mother of Christ (Mary) or if they are about something else "Mary".

To differentiate them, we just have to look at the visions' content. Do they point to Christ or something else? As shown earlier, they do not point to Christ, but to some other entity (Immaculate Heart).

Now the question is why do people continue to defend the false visions? It's not as if anyone is talking about the real Mary.

and the devotion to the Immaculate Heart points to Jesus
it is about the saving grace of God and how richly He blesses those who trust in Him

so we are talking about the real Mary

 

[Albion]

Folks, again, the visions are real; they happened.

That may be so, although not all of them were witnessed by other people and we have only the testimony of onlookers describing what the person to whom the spirit supposedly appeared looked like, said, and did.

To differentiate them, we just have to look at the visions' content. Do they point to Christ or something else? As shown earlier, they do not point to Christ, but to some other entity (Immaculate Heart).

Now the question is why do people continue to defend the false visions? It's not as if anyone is talking about the real Mary.

Good point that is basically in accord with the journal article I posted earlier.

 

[Rev Randy]

So, the songs of Solomon got absolutely nothing to do with Solomon having strong sexual desire for his wives? Right....

I'd say it had a lot to do with his love for his wife. But not his lust.His lust appeared for Sheba's queen and others.

 

[sunlover1]

what we have here is a breakdown of communication

lust is the inordinate desire
so lust would be linked to objectification and selfishness

sexual desire is not the same as lust

Sure would look like it to someone who's not
in the moment ...
I think lionking is making a good point tbh.

so while it is good and healthy for a married couple to have sexual desire for each other
we would not encourage lust

I think all of you RCCs engage in marital lust,
just the same as all humans since the beginning
of time.
And since the marriage bed is undefiled..
and since God said your body belongs to
your spouse (which means FOR his/her
pleasure obviously..) why sweat it or
call it a bad thing?

 

[sunlover1]

Where does it say that? I thought you believe the Bible literally. It says lusting after a woman.

No it doesn't. You're the one who's changing what it says.
It's clearly speaking of someone you're not married to.
THe marriage bed, otoh, is undefiled.

Men and women often, in today's world, have the false image that it's ok in marriage.

because it IS 'okay' to get all worked up for your spouse.
How else is sex going to happen?

 

[Rhamiel]

Sure would look like it to someone who's not
in the moment ...
I think lionking is making a good point tbh.


I think all of you RCCs engage in marital lust,
just the same as all humans since the beginning
of time.
And since the marriage bed is undefiled..
and since God said your body belongs to
your spouse (which means FOR his/her
pleasure obviously..) why sweat it or
call it a bad thing?

like I said
we are using the word lust to mean different things
from the looks of it, some people on this thread are using it to mean any sexual desire

that is not how Catholics use that word

 

[Lion King]

I'd say it had a lot to do with his love for his wife. But not his lust.His lust appeared for Sheba's queen and others.

Where did you get this idea that strong sexual desire is not lust?

 

[Nanopants]

like I said
we are using the word lust to mean different things
from the looks of it, some people on this thread are using it to mean any sexual desire

that is not how Catholics use that word

^Yea. I agree with Rhamiel.

"Lust" is a dirty word, and a product of a stained imagination. There is no lust in God, even if there is room for sexual desire for one's spouse.

 

[Lion King]

like I said
we are using the word lust to mean different things
from the looks of it, some people on this thread are using it to mean any sexual desire

that is not how Catholics use that word

I take it your church considers strong sexual desire for your wife/husband a sin?

 

[Rhamiel]

Where did you get this idea that strong sexual desire is not lust?

from the philosophical idea that virtue is the golden mean
that virtue is the in the middle between two vices

also because lust is a sin, and sexual desire is natural, and God is not the author of sin

you are kind of arguing against a strawman
no one is saying that sex is evil

 

[Lion King]

^Yea. I agree with Rhamiel.

"Lust" is a dirty word, and a product of a stained imagination. There is no lust in God, even if there is room for sexual desire for one's spouse.

I'm lusting after ice cream today. This must mean im hell bound.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm so glad you posted that. Some seem to think once something is sanctioned by the Church that it equates with Dogma thereby one must believe or face excommunication.

Thanks.

 

[Fireinfolding]

How do men do (what Viagra might to do) for a man without a desire though?

Because women don't need a physical (transformation) to perform what a man needs in order to "perform".

(trying really hard not to say the third word in this sentence) in that context.

Is it even possible for a man without desire?

 

[Rhamiel]

I take it your church considers strong sexual desire for your wife/husband a sin?

you are mistaken
sexual desire between a husband and wife is natural and good and has been sanctified doubly, once by nature, and again by the sacramental nature of marriage.

also, why add the qualifier "strong"?

 

[Lion King]

from the philosophical idea that virtue is the golden mean
that virtue is the in the middle between two vices

also because lust is a sin, and sexual desire is natural, and God is not the author of sin

you are kind of arguing against a strawman
no one is saying that sex is evil

Now for the last time, lust is NOT a sin. Lusting after a woman who you are NOT married to is a sin. Lusting to do evil is sin.

By the way, both Strong's and Oxford dictionary defines lust as a strong desire for something. Who am I to believe?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Ok.



Indeed. Ever seen a televangelist? Those guys tell folk to pray to God all the time. They have testimonies that miracles have taken place in the lives of individuals who bought their prayer cloths and the whole nine. Are you telling me because they say "Pray to God" it's of God?

Depends on if you want to believe the whole cloth. For example, I've seen Joel Osteen and Dr. Stanley in person on several occasions. Some of what they say is good, some, I don't give two hoots about. To the extent that they point me toward God, I say AMEN! To the point they don't, I say Phuuuut! Jesus said that demons cannot drive out demons in the name of God, I believe. So if the televangelist, regardless of his personal morality or criminal intent, says "Pray to God", and I pray to God, that's not demonic. Demons don't make me pray to God. They cannot.

By the same token, the Pope and bishops in communion with the Pope are prevented by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. See how that works?

 

[Lion King]

you are mistaken
sexual desire between a husband and wife is natural and good and has been sanctified doubly, once by nature, and again by the sacramental nature of marriage.

also, why add the qualifier "strong"?

You do understand lust is defined in the Scriptures as a strong desire for something?

epithumeó: desire, lust after
Original Word: ἐπιθυμέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epithumeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o)
Short Definition: I long for, covet, lust after
Definition: I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.


1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, "focused on" intensifying 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, "upon") what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – 'to long for, to desire very much' " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

Word Origin
from epi and thumos
Definition
desire, lust after
NASB Translation
covet (2), coveted (1), craved (1), desire (1), desired (2), desires (1), gladly (1), long (3), longing (1), lust (2), sets its desire (1).

 

[Rhamiel]

Now for the last time, lust is NOT a sin. Lusting after a woman who you are NOT married to is a sin. Lusting to do evil is sin.

By the way, both Strong's and Oxford dictionary defines lust as a strong desire for something. Who am I to believe?

if lust is the same as sexual desire, then are people called to have no sexual desire until the moment after they exchange the "I do's"?

neither Strong nor Oxford are primarily concerned with philosophy and theology, so their definitions are not a huge concern for me

 

[Root of Jesse]

I read the bible in context. Jesus was going further into the sin of adultery (i.e two people having sexual relations when not married).

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


I dunno what you Roman catholics have been taught, but having sex for pleasure or craving someone is not a sin before God as long as you are married to each other.

I don't see where Jesus excludes a man's wife from that part about "looks at a woman lustfully".

Having sex for pleasure alone is morally disordered. The marital act must allow for procreation to take place. Likewise, sex for procreation alone is morally disordered (though not as popular), so IVF, surrogate motherhood, and the like are all morally disordered. IVF moreso, because it involves creating many embryos and killing the unwanted ones. Also, some kinds of sex between a man and a woman who are married are wrong, but let's keep it PG rated?