How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Lion King]

The Song of Solomon is seen as a beautiful picture of the ideal Israel, the chosen people whom the Lord leads by degrees to a greater understanding and closer union in the bond of perfect love. Such readings of the Song build on Israel’s covenant tradition. Isaiah (Is 5:1–7; 54:4–8; 62:5), Jeremiah (Jer 2:2, 3, 32), and Ezekiel (Ez 16; 23) all characterize the covenant between the Lord and Israel as a marriage.

So, the songs of Solomon got absolutely nothing to do with Solomon having strong sexual desire for his wives? Right....

 

[Root of Jesse]

I was asking personally. Do you not believe in the Fatima appearance?

There were many Fatima appearances. I believe them. I celebrate the occurances, but I can see where the doubts about the sun lie. What I believe is the fruits of the "Miracle of Fatima". I believe that there's a reason Mary appeared where, when and to whom she appeared.

Look at the place and the time. Portugal became independent and secularized. There was civil war. The Law of Separation allows divorce, outlaws religious weddings, abolishes illegitimacy, secularized cemeteries and forbad all catechism. In two generations, Catholicism was all but completely eliminated in Portugal. After 1912/1915 uprisings, 17,000 priests and Religious were murdered. In one of the apparitions, Mary tells the children "If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church". Her requests were not heeded, and the period of the World Wars and Communism/Cold War ensued. I believe the third Secret was completed by John Paul II. The fruits have not been completed yet.

That they did. But as already stated, it can be shown that these miracles aren't of God.

Really? Someone appearing and saying "Pray to God" isn't of God?

I can agree with that.



Actually I would say that these are more than likely supernatural. That wouldn't make them any less of a false miracle though.

I think you have to look at what comes from them. If someone sees the Shroud of Turin as the image of Christ, and comes to Christ, how is that wrong? My belief is that both the Shroud and the Holy Face are real images of Our Lord. And the Church has not sanctioned them, or denied them.

 

[Stryder06]

Mary answered the Angel saying "Fiat", "Let it be done unto me." "Yes." This implies that she could have said "No" or "Find someone else."

Right. I already said that the only thing we see is Mary agreeing to do what God said. You're right, she could have said no, or shown disbelief, but that doesn't change the fact that she wasn't asked. She is simply told "This is going to happen" and she said "Ok"

If we meet in a coffee shop, and have coffee, and upon parting, I say the archaic "Until we meet again." Does that imply that we will meet again?

I don't know how you say goodbye, but I don't tell anyone "until we meet again" unless I plan on meeting them again. That said, your example is off. It be more like saying "I didn't drink my coffee until it cooled off".

 

[Stryder06]

There were many Fatima appearances. I believe them. I celebrate the occurances, but I can see where the doubts about the sun lie. What I believe is the fruits of the "Miracle of Fatima". I believe that there's a reason Mary appeared where, when and to whom she appeared.

Look at the place and the time. Portugal became independent and secularized. There was civil war. The Law of Separation allows divorce, outlaws religious weddings, abolishes illegitimacy, secularized cemeteries and forbad all catechism. In two generations, Catholicism was all but completely eliminated in Portugal. After 1912/1915 uprisings, 17,000 priests and Religious were murdered. In one of the apparitions, Mary tells the children "If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church". Her requests were not heeded, and the period of the World Wars and Communism/Cold War ensued. I believe the third Secret was completed by John Paul II. The fruits have not been completed yet.

Ok.

Really? Someone appearing and saying "Pray to God" isn't of God?

Indeed. Ever seen a televangelist? Those guys tell folk to pray to God all the time. They have testimonies that miracles have taken place in the lives of individuals who bought their prayer cloths and the whole nine. Are you telling me because they say "Pray to God" it's of God?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I have already shown you. Paul instructs us to marry if we cannot avoid lust.

What Christ forbid is lusting after a woman to whom you are NOT married to.

Where does it say that? I thought you believe the Bible literally. It says lusting after a woman. Men and women often, in today's world, have the false image that it's ok in marriage. Most television and commercials help portray that, too.

 

[Stryder06]

I think you have to look at what comes from them. If someone sees the Shroud of Turin as the image of Christ, and comes to Christ, how is that wrong? My belief is that both the Shroud and the Holy Face are real images of Our Lord. And the Church has not sanctioned them, or denied them.

Christ can bring many people unto Him through incorrect means. Recall how Paul said that some preached Christ out of love, and others out of spite, but he rejoiced because either way Christ was being preached.

 

[Tzaousios]

Albion, can you please explain what agenda it is you see? Thanks.

 

[Rev Randy]

I'm sorry but you've lost me here.

Fiat= so be it
or a little Italian car. But as You seem like the Buick type I suspect he meant the former

 

[Root of Jesse]

I take it you do not own any electrical gadgets in your house?

I do. So what?

Umm, lust is merely having a great desire for something. Clearly, Rev Randy is trying to create his own definition of the word lust. Maybe, you should ask him where he got such a definition.


epithumeó: desire, lust after
Original Word: ἐπιθυμέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epithumeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o)
Short Definition: I long for, covet, lust after
Definition: I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.


1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, "focused on" intensifying 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, "upon") what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – 'to long for, to desire very much' " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

Word Origin
from epi and thumos
Definition
desire, lust after
NASB Translation
covet (2), coveted (1), craved (1), desire (1), desired (2), desires (1), gladly (1), long (3), longing (1), lust (2), sets its desire (1).

Let me illustrate the point of what lust is. I wanted a particular video camera. I created this excuse to buy it, even though I already had a camera, perfectly good for the purpose. I wanted the other one, anyway. I got the other one, anyway. I had other uses for the money I spent on the camera, I didn't need it. That can be considered lust. It's something disordered. There are many areas of lust in society today. Any time you pursue something without God as your primary purpose, you violate the commandment. To finish the story, the purpose for me to have the camera fizzled out. I no longer had my excuse, even though I had already bought the camera. After a little soul-searching, I returned the camera. Because of this action, there was no longer that lust. Again, we do this over many things today. The latest technology, for one. Food, for another.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So, the songs of Solomon got absolutely nothing to do with Solomon having strong sexual desire for his wives? Right....

Solomon, as a chip off the ol' block, had an issue with lust. It got him, and his father both in hot water.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Right. I already said that the only thing we see is Mary agreeing to do what God said. You're right, she could have said no, or shown disbelief, but that doesn't change the fact that she wasn't asked. She is simply told "This is going to happen" and she said "Ok"



I don't know how you say goodbye, but I don't tell anyone "until we meet again" unless I plan on meeting them again. That said, your example is off. It be more like saying "I didn't drink my coffee until it cooled off".

You get the point. Even your saying about the coffee doesn't mean you did drink it. I said my example was an archaic use. But the Bible is about an archaic time, no? The point is the until does not necessarily mean that it will happen. There is, btw, nowhere in Scripture that says that Mary had children. There are instances of Jesus having siblings. Not the same thing.

 

[Lion King]

Where does it say that? I thought you believe the Bible literally. It says lusting after a woman. Men and women often, in today's world, have the false image that it's ok in marriage. Most television and commercials help portray that, too.

I read the bible in context. Jesus was going further into the sin of adultery (i.e two people having sexual relations when not married).

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


I dunno what you Roman catholics have been taught, but having sex for pleasure or craving someone is not a sin before God as long as you are married to each other.

 

[Lion King]

Solomon, as a chip off the ol' block, had an issue with lust. It got him, and his father both in hot water.

Yeah, both David and Solomon lusted after other women, and not their wives only. That was their sin...

 

[Stryder06]

You get the point. Even your saying about the coffee doesn't mean you did drink it. I said my example was an archaic use. But the Bible is about an archaic time, no? The point is the until does not necessarily mean that it will happen. There is, btw, nowhere in Scripture that says that Mary had children. There are instances of Jesus having siblings. Not the same thing.

You're doing it again. I don't know how you understand the use of until, but if I told you I won't leave until 3:00 you're not going to say "That doesn't mean he left after 3:00

If you heard a girl say "I'm not going to have sex until after I get married", are you seriously going to say that you wouldn't think that she had sex once she got married?

The bible doesn't have to say Mary had other kids. What it does say is that Joseph didn't know Mary until after she gave birth. You're allowing your Tradition to trump the clear word of scripture.

 

[Rhamiel]

I have already shown you. Paul instructs us to marry if we cannot avoid lust.

What Christ forbid is lusting after a woman to whom you are NOT married to.

what we have here is a breakdown of communication

lust is the inordinate desire
so lust would be linked to objectification and selfishness

sexual desire is not the same as lust
so while it is good and healthy for a married couple to have sexual desire for each other
we would not encourage lust

 

[Lion King]

I do. So what?

Why do you own such devices? Was it not desire to own them that drove you to purchase them?

Let me illustrate the point of what lust is. I wanted a particular video camera. I created this excuse to buy it, even though I already had a camera, perfectly good for the purpose. I wanted the other one, anyway. I got the other one, anyway. I had other uses for the money I spent on the camera, I didn't need it. That can be considered lust. It's something disordered. There are many areas of lust in society today. Any time you pursue something without God as your primary purpose, you violate the commandment. To finish the story, the purpose for me to have the camera fizzled out. I no longer had my excuse, even though I had already bought the camera. After a little soul-searching, I returned the camera. Because of this action, there was no longer that lust. Again, we do this over many things today. The latest technology, for one. Food, for another.

As I said before, lust is desire to have something. Plain and simple.

 

[Stryder06]

what we have here is a breakdown of communication

lust is the inordinate desire
so lust would be linked to objectification and selfishness

sexual desire is not the same as lust
so while it is good and healthy for a married couple to have sexual desire for each other
we would not encourage lust

Properly stated

 

[Standing Up]

Whether you have a problem or not with the doctrine is up to you.
Unknown? Hardly.
The True Presentation of the Virgin Mary (Foretold in the Book of Sirach) - Taylor Marshall

Did Jewish Temple Virgins Exist and was Mary a Temple Virgin? |
Again, sorry you don't like the argument. All you had to say is "I don't like this argument, it doesn't ring with me." Or something like that.

.

Interesting links, unfortunately he fails to deal with Anna.

Lk 2:36,7

"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day."

So, it clear that women who attended the temple did not have to be virgins or without 'blood issue'. They didn't.

Believe the temple virgin idea is of Roman religion, not the Jewish religion.

 

[Lion King]

what we have here is a breakdown of communication

lust is the inordinate desire
so lust would be linked to objectification and selfishness

sexual desire is not the same as lust
so while it is good and healthy for a married couple to have sexual desire for each other
we would not encourage lust

Your church does not encourage strong sexual desire between a married couple? Really?

 

[Standing Up]

Folks, again, the visions are real; they happened. The question is whether they are about the true mother of Christ (Mary) or if they are about something else "Mary".

To differentiate them, we just have to look at the visions' content. Do they point to Christ or something else? As shown earlier, they do not point to Christ, but to some other entity (Immaculate Heart).

Now the question is why do people continue to defend the false visions? It's not as if anyone is talking about the real Mary.