How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Lion King]

It's not my place to prove a miracle. Now tell me who "proved" that the miracles Jesus performed were of God? Seems a lot of earthly people have seen no proof.
I may test a miracle but I cannot prove it. Faith is the only evidence but that's not proof.

God.

1. The Scriptures. The miracles that Jesus performed fulfilled all that was written of the Messiah by the prophets (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:16-20).


2. The miracles themselves proves Jesus was the Anointed One of God (John 3:2).

You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the middle of you, as you yourselves also know: Acts 2:22


3. The prophecy spoken by Christ concerning the destruction of the Temple was fulfilled.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” Matthew 24:1-2



Anyway, since you are unable to prove that the miracle at Fatima is from God, why should I believe in it? Didn't the LORD say we should ALWAYS test the spirits to see if they are from Him (1 John 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1, Matthew 7:15)?

PS. I was not asking for scientific proof. All I want is Scripture backing that the so-called miracles experienced by those 3 little children was from God.

 

[Rhamiel]

What you mean, I take it, is that a DNA test would be fooled just as our eyes and taste buds allegedly are. In this case, then, there is no way of proving Transubstantiation, meaning that it isn't actually a miracle as people normally think of miracles. For example, if I say that, with a wave of my hand, New York City has ceased to exist except that it still SEEMS to be there, you probably wouldn't call that a miracle, would you?

That being said, I think we need to get away from this "nature of the Eucharist" line of thought and back to the miracles that the OP had in mind.

if you ran a DNA test on Jesus would you see that He is God?
just because the nature of a miracle can not be verified with the use of science, does not make it less of a miracle

I understand why this is hard to understand, the Eucharist is the only time the substance is changed but the accidents remain the same
so it is kind of difficult to think about

 

[Albion]

if you ran a DNA test on Jesus would you see that He is God?

To the best of my knowledge, DNA tests don't test for the essence of God.

just because the nature of a miracle can not be verified with the use of science, does not make it less of a miracle

No, but it means that there is no way of determining if it is a miracle or not. That's because there is no way of determining if anything happened!

I understand why this is hard to understand

Good. I just explained it.

 

[Optimax]

I suffered through the u tube video.

There was no call for people to accept Jesus

There were pictures of the people that were there.

Why not pictures of all that supposedly happened with the sun?

The pictures of the sun, except one that I remember, that the video showed were not the time of the "event".

With all the photographers that were there.

Just wondering.

Where are the pictures?

 

[simonthezealot]

How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

It is best explained for exactly what it is.

A demonic manifestation that draws attention away from Jesus toward something false.

word.
God forbade Israel to do what the RCC does with fatima for example...
Duet 4;19 And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven

 

[Rev Randy]

They said this not because they thought it was true, but because their hearts were hardened against the truth.



I don't have to worry about it being from God. I know it isn't which is why I can say what I did, and will continue to do so. He asked what it could be, and I explained it from the scripture.

I don't think I'll ever understand how so many warnings are given about being deceived, and none are heeded because of the off chance they might offend someone. If Satan showed up hollering and screaming that he was going to kill all christians, showing himself for who he truly was, what chance do you think he'd stand at deceiving others? Deception works best under a cloak of legitimacy.

Kinda like following the teachings of a modern day prophet?

 

[Rev Randy]

All right, but I've always found them to be quite easy going. If you want their New Testaments, they're are happy to offer them, and if you don't, they smile and let it go at that. Without any apparent resentment, they take the sneers of skeptics who comment while passing by, and they seem to be content to do this day after day with little way of knowing how much of an effect this approach to evangelism is having. I assume that they must pay a lot for the thousands of books they distribute each year, and they never weaken. I mean, how many other religious campaigns have quietly ground along like this for --well, my whole lifetime, it seems--with so little fanfare?

(Sorry for the sermon. I was just thinking "aloud.")

They do a good work. When traveling one can always count on a Bible in the drawer of the hotel because of them. They gave me a Testament when I was in the military as well.Never found them pushy at all.

 

[Rev Randy]

Why? I find it more disturbing that so many individuals are willing to accept whatever they see as a "miracle" to be heaven sent.



I actually believe that Jesus performed miracles simply out of love. Probably why you would help someone who fell stand back up again. You're not doing it to convince them that you're a nice person, you're doing it because it's within your power to do so, and because you simply love that individual as a child of God.

Read His words just before He raised Lazarus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

word.
God forbade Israel to do what the RCC does with fatima for example...
Duet 4;19 And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven

What an absurd attempted application of scripture. What is reported to have happened at Fatima involved no worship of the sun or the hosts of heaven (the stars presumably).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Who's being hasty? It doesn't matter if the message given calls peeople to pray, worship, and live a godly life if the way they've been taught to pray, worship and live is wholly incorrect. All that ends up doing is calling people to walk down the wrong road with greater haste.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

Interesting that you'd complain about the way that Catholics pray, worship, and live godly lives and that you'd turn to 1 John 4:1 for support of your condemnation of the events at Fatima when it is precisely the words of saint John in 1 John 4:2-3 that point to the genuineness of the message from Fatima.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2-3)​

The message of Fatima both confesses Jesus come in the flesh and calls the faithful to remember that he shall come again to judge the world.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
I actually believe that Jesus performed miracles simply out of love. Probably why you would help someone who fell stand back up again. You're not doing it to convince them that you're a nice person, you're doing it because it's within your power to do so, and because you simply love that individual as a child of God.

Hebrews gives more than a hint about why miracles are given by God.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:3-4)​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Stryder06

Who's being hasty? It doesn't matter if the message given calls peeople to pray, worship, and live a godly life if the way they've been taught to pray, worship and live is wholly incorrect. All that ends up doing is calling people to walk down the wrong road with greater haste.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world
​

Interesting that you'd complain about the way that Catholics pray, worship, and live godly lives and that you'd turn to 1 John 4:1 for support of your condemnation of the events at Fatima when it is precisely the words of saint John in 1 John 4:2-3 that point to the genuineness of the message from Fatima.

The message of Fatima both confesses Jesus come in the flesh and calls the faithful to remember that he shall come again to judge the world.

Good message! The same one the Bible says

http://www.christianforums.com/t7623449-20/
Miracle of Fatima

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

Originally Posted by LaSpino3

Simonpeter, wrote, concerning miracle of Fatima, "Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?"

Phil replies, "Yes, but not any Biblical position that I am aware of. Young girls having visions. Hmmm sounds a lot like a few others in the past.

Joseph Smith had visions, founder of Mormon church. As did Taze Russel, founder of Jehovah Witnesses. Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Scientiology, and lets not forget the 9 year old girl that had a vision, told her pastor, and the Pentecostal tongues movement was born.

I believe Jim Jones, David Kerosh, and Mr. Applewhite, you remember, "Heavens gate ministeries," they all claimed to have some form of extra-terrestrial communication with God also.

Dangerious stuff, don't you think? But this is only my opinion,

Phil LaSpino
​

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[EinsteinsGirl]

if he wanted ONLY Protestants to answer this, he could have started the thread in the Baptist or Lutheran or Fundamentalist or Reformed subforums

The OP specifically asked for non-Catholics to respond, that should be enough. He posted in Theology because it's a theological question

Does it offend you when Catholics comment on miracles and visions that happened among the people of the Catholic Church?

Not offended at all, but the OP specified non Catholics because he wanted NON Catholics, yet you feel the need to jump in and try to correct everyone

 

[Root of Jesse]

How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

It is best explained for exactly what it is.

A demonic manifestation that draws attention away from Jesus toward something false.

How can it draw attention away from Jesus if it IS Jesus?

 

[Root of Jesse]

How do you explain countless of Near Death Experiences of Protestants going to Heaven?I'll wait.

As personal revelation. By what authority could they be revealed as true?

See, the difference is that Catholicism regards such items with skepticism, testing them every way known, before giving them a blessing as authentic. Even if authentic, though, the Church doesn't ever say that we must believe their veracity.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not sure if serious...Well, the person you're referring to is as serious as the teaching of the Catholic Church. God comes first, all three persons of God, then comes Mary. Anyone who thinks or believes Mary is equal to or above God is heretical.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Here's a clip from the article concerning a so-called miracle of the sun which the children said would take place, which some here are trying to pass off as scientifically proven.

[qoute from article] No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.[3] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon was visible from up to forty kilometers away. Not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[12][13]
Since no scientifically verifiable physical cause can be adduced to explain the phenomenon of the sun [end qoute]

Even the witnesses who were there didn't agree on what they saw or didn't see. And have you ever tried looking straight into the sun? Ain't no telling what you'll see when your blinded by it's brightness.

If people want to hang their faith on something 3 children (with fanciful imaginations) said they saw and received then go for it. But it's not in line with scripture, nor does science even confirm it, neither do those so called witnesses to it even agree.

But the childrens testimony does seem to be in line with Catholic doctrine and beliefs, so to me it sounds and smells real fishy.:o

If you think the Miracle of Fatima is about the sun dancing in the sky, you're on the wrong track...If you think the events in Mexico are about a peasant bringing roses to the bishop in dead of winter, you're on the wrong track, or even if you think it's about an image on an apron, wrong. Thees physical events do speak to something supernatural happening. But thinking the ways above is like thinking that the major event of Jesus driving out demons was the pigs running into the lake. You miss the whole point.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Some even consider the worshipping of the statue of Fatima Idolatry...

RATHEREXPOSETHEM: IDOLATROUS POPE TO BRING MARY STATUE FROM FATIMA TO VATICAN


I believe it is idolatry.:o

What gives you the idea that what they're doing is worshipping?

 

[Root of Jesse]

False signs & wonders of the enemy to lead people astray.. This is why it's so important to test the spirits. If just one person who witnessed Fatima had called that apparition out in the name of Jesus, it would have vanished. We must always test the spirits - both human and spiritual alike. The Word of God tells us that any spirit which cannot state of it's own accord that Jesus is God who came in the flesh & died for remission of all sin, then they are not servants of the real Jesus (they serve 'another' Jesus).

I guess you missed it...the lady appeared to the children many times. And her message was always pointed to God and Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The OP specifically asked for non-Catholics to respond, that should be enough. He posted in Theology because it's a theological question

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee Does it offend you when Catholics comment on miracles and visions that happened among the people of the Catholic Church?

Not offended at all, but the OP specified non Catholics because he wanted NON Catholics, yet you feel the need to jump in and try to correct everyone

This may be our chance to convert him away from Roman Catholicism, and maybe deep down, that is what he wants.

So let's cut 'im some slack, at least for now


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