How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Rhamiel]

The devil was the one which caused the Son of God to be crucified, and that piercing serpent rejoiced in causing such pain and wounds...

...and he still loves to do this today, in the many 'manifestations' of his cruelty in the 'stigmata's', causing his victims to bleed, and even worse causing them to believe that it is God which brings it upon them, and desires it of them...

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalms 22:16

...it is satans religion which desires such things, even as he always delighted in pain, torture and death...

And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. 1 Kings 18:28

...for the devil is the author of such things, not God, who is the Healer, the Great Physician [Luke 4:23]:

And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; Luke 6:17

And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Matthew 4:24

And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Matthew 15:30

And the people, when they knew it, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing. Luke 9:11

etc...

..they came to Hear His Word and be healed, and yet the devil may even counter-feit healing, and so it must be tested according to the Word, and do they speak to the Law and to the Testimony, or do they reject a portion of it for the traditions, superstitions of devils and men.

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Psalms 107:20

For the Devil can inflict pain for many many years...

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? Luke 16:13

...and though Jesus healed and loosed this woman, beware, that even the devil may mimick such, by simply removing the pain he is inflicting that he may ensnare the deceived in twice over...

...that many will run to false waters... by the stirring of the false angels...

In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5:3

For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. John 5:4

And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. John 5:5

...these were spellbound by the machinations of satan in the moving of the waters which could not heal and could not give life...

...but when Jesus Christ came, He the living Water healed that man, without even one use of that 'stirred' water...

...thousands today are stuck like that man and those people, looking unto miracles of some ['holy'] 'water' and yet do not place their faith in Jesus Christ and His Word now today, who can in this very instant heal them of all their diseases, doubts, fears, sins...

I am slightly confused, are you saying that the pool of Bethsaida was demonic?

 

[Rick Otto]

Oh, I see, so there is no more content in the three posts you have made than what you were whining about what was contained in mine and MoreCoffee's posts. I understand now.

You understand trolling like an expert.

 

[Tzaousios]

You understand trolling like an expert.

I am glad that I was able to understand your methodology, Rick.

Are there any other assumptions you would like to get off your chest now that you have taken the space?

 

[Rick Otto]

I am glad that I was able to understand your methodology, Rick.

Everyone is happier now that you're glad, Tzaousious.

I assume I will continue not to deserve your friendship.

 

[sunlover1]

The Devil can cause blood to come forth in his own miracle, in a deception, in a counter-feit of God's own true power:

Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. Exodus 7:17

And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river. Exodus 7:18

And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. Exodus 7:19

And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. Exodus 7:20

And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:21

And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:22

Even as it is written by Paul, these false ones, do miracles to oppose God and His messenger, and His Word, and His Commandments, which are Truth:

Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2 Timothy 3:8

It is written:

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Revelation 13:14

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

Miracles are no test, but the Miracles must be tested by the Word of God, een as it is written: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

The Devil can cause miracles to go forward in the name of God, though they are counterfeit and spurious:

But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: Acts 8:9

To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. Acts 8:10

And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. Acts 8:11

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Acts 8:18

Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:19

But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:20

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Acts 8:21

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22

For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Acts 8:23

Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. Acts 8:24

The Devil can cause his miracles to look good enough to fool leaders of nations through false prophets, both in the OT [Pharoah] and NT [Sergius Paulus], etc:

And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Acts 13:6

Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. Acts 13:7

But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Acts 13:8

The Devil sends false prophets among the true according to Jesus, speaking all manner of lies in the name of God, and do great signs and wonders to deceive, and they claim to be of God, even Christians, but are not, and he even sends false Christ's, which claim to be in the place, or take the place of the Son of God on earth, that they are His representative:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mark 13:22

Peter and John warns also:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Even as the OT had spoken before:

Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Jeremiah 14:14

Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment. Lamentations 2:14

Satan can cause miracles, and plagues and armies and storms, and make it seem as if God is the one doing it, by his deceptions, even from the four directions of the compass:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:12

And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:15

While he [was] yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:16

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:17

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Job 2:6

So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. Job 2:7

Satan can cause not only these elements, but also affect the family to turn against us, even friends by deceitful means, bringing messages without hope, blaming God, even through visions and dreams:

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. Job 2:9

Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof. Job 4:12

In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men, Job 4:13

Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake. Job 4:14

Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: Job 4:15

It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, Job 4:16

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Job 4:17

Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: Job 4:18

How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth? Job 4:19

They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it. Job 4:20

Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom. Job 4:21

The Devil, the lying spirit, that being of malice, had gone forth from the Heavenly meetings, as also seen in Job, to deceive and lie, to destroy the lives of men, and to bring false light upon God's character:

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1 Kings 22:21

And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1 Kings 22:22

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Kings 22:23

Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 2 Chronicles 18:20

And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 2 Chronicles 18:21

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. 2 Chronicles 18:22

Excellent work.
Thanks for sharing some food for thought.
I schedule my life around God and His Word.
(Try to rather)

 

[Standing Up]

The Protovangelion of James always struck me as being a Jewish, not a pagan, story, echoing the stories found in the Old Testament, and not necessarily any more mythical than the other Gospel accounts.

You mean Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn? or are you comparing PoJ to other pseudo works?

Again, go read Mary for Evangelicals and you will realize the genetic fallacy by trying to reduce the stories about Mary to pagan myths. There are other possibilities of why the Christian stories about Mary resemble pagan stories in certain details, but understanding some of those could involve delving into things such as the Sophiological traditions of East and West.

Well, it's hard for something to resemble something when we really don't know. IOW, you're assuming, begging the question, that Mary's life did resemble pagan stories. From what we know from scripture and tradition, it didn't.

There's pagan ideas and there's the truth about Mary. They really do not resemble each other at all.

Pagan..................... Truth
priestess ..................not a priestess
ever-virgin.............. normal birth (virginity over)
raised in temple.............. no idea her childhood (probably just normal)
left at 1st blood .............not an issue
her child born of stardust..... Christ born of flesh

 

[Root of Jesse]

I call it RCC for the distinction, since we are all "catholic".


Amen.


Thanks for the information ROJ, and for your conversation in this
thread, showing kindness, even when others might mock.
I'll look into that.
Self torture still doesn't resonate
well with my spirit, but our conscience
speaks as it knows, so sometimes it
needs a bit of retraining.
King David 'spoke to' his soul.

You're right, friend. It's one thing to deny yourself a drink or a candy or a meal. It's another thing to beat yourself every 45 seconds. I don't get it either, and it's not something I condone or would do myself. But it is discipline, such as athletes put themselves through, is it not? I mean, I sacrifice every day walking up the street, about an eight story climb to the level of the church I attend, and I do it on purpose, and it hurt at first. In fact, I still have tendonitis. And sometimes I fight through it to get to the church. But athletes sometimes break bones while playing their sport, and work through it.

You're right, think of it as spiritual training. But do so only if you feel called, and you have someone to direct you in the practice.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't know about that particular matter, but I have been thinking it would be nice if we returned to discussing the topic of the OP--what non-RCs think of Catholicism's alleged apparitions and similar "miracles."

The answer may have come too quickly or was too obvious. Did "show us the evidence" exhaust the discussion? Anyway, if there is more to say about that, let's address it instead of these things we've wandered into instead.

There is plenty of evidence. But lots of people don't accept it. Like I said a while back, when it comes to miracles, for those who believe, nothing will dissuade them. For those who don't, no proof is sufficient.

 

[Root of Jesse]

LOL
Top ten "non rc's"

Who Posted? Total Posts: 946
User Name Posts Root of Jesse 142 Stryder06 118 MoreCoffee 85 Albion 62 Standing Up 61 sunlover1 42 Rev Randy 42 Rhamiel 40 Lion King 39 Mike to Michael 24


Yes, I don't want anything to do with those sightings, and I also shun
all sightings of gold dust, feathers etc.
Lest anyone want to accuse me of being a hater.. again..
I'm not a hater, I am a skeptic.
And that because I have been tricked big time in the past.

Just so you know, the Catholic Church always approaches a reported miracle or apparition with a great degree of skepticism. And in fact, the apparition at Lourdes, Bernadette was subjected to secular threatening and menacing, apparently long hours of questioning under duress; as well as shunning and ridicule by the townspeople, and the local hierarchy. Denied the Eucharist for lying publicly. And yet, the facts manifested themselves in such a way that the Church came to believe it. Same with Guadalupe, and Fatima, and most of the ones that have been approved. I don't think you'll find church-approved apparitions in toast.

In fact, the way most miracles are investigated, the same way most saints are investigated prior to canonization, is very rigorous, and some take ages.

 

[MrLuther]

There is plenty of evidence. But lots of people don't accept it.

Well, if you think that "Hey, this completely irrelevant pseudopigraphical work written a MINIMUM of 100 years after the last of the Apostles died says something....that must make it true!", is evidence, then sure.

However, that's the worst possible definition of evidence I've ever heard :S

 

[FireDragon76]

In fact, the way most miracles are investigated, the same way most saints are investigated prior to canonization, is very rigorous, and some take ages.

It seems to me in the last two centuries, the Vatican has been largely uncomfortable with new miraculous claims. I'm reading through a book on Pio of Pietrelcina, and his life was full of the Church's hierarchy restricting and persecuting him for his devotees miraculous claims.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It seems to me in the last two centuries, the Vatican has been largely uncomfortable with new miraculous claims. I'm reading through a book on Pio of Pietrelcina, and his life was full of the Church's hierarchy restricting and persecuting him for his devotees miraculous claims.

I've noticed that, as well.

 

[sunlover1]

You're right, friend. It's one thing to deny yourself a drink or a candy or a meal. It's another thing to beat yourself every 45 seconds. I don't get it either, and it's not something I condone or would do myself.

Glad to hear that.

But it is discipline, such as athletes put themselves through, is it not? I mean, I sacrifice every day walking up the street, about an eight story climb to the level of the church I attend, and I do it on purpose, and it hurt at first. In fact, I still have tendonitis. And sometimes I fight through it to get to the church. But athletes sometimes break bones while playing their sport, and work through it.

Do you believe that they are missing the mark when they do
so? I can't see how, for instance, WWW could NOT be missing
the mark...

You're right, think of it as spiritual training. But do so only if you feel called, and you have someone to direct you in the practice.

I just haven't seen such a thing in Scripture, so I don't know
why I'd be tempted to do so. I would worry that could attract
"cutting" and such.

Well, if you think that "Hey, this completely irrelevant pseudopigraphical work written a MINIMUM of 100 years after the last of the Apostles died says something....that must make it true!", is evidence, then sure.

However, that's the worst possible definition of evidence I've ever heard :S

Yes, what RCC's call proof may not be considered so for others who
are not in your church.

 

[GenetoJean]

Blind post answering the OP.

I would explain it by saying God does what He thinks is necessary to reach the people that particular message is supposed to reach.

 

[Rhamiel]

It seems to me in the last two centuries, the Vatican has been largely uncomfortable with new miraculous claims. I'm reading through a book on Pio of Pietrelcina, and his life was full of the Church's hierarchy restricting and persecuting him for his devotees miraculous claims.

yeah, this has been going on longer then 200 years
the big fear is that a cult of personality will build up
and then it turn out the person was fake or demonic
and common people would get their faith hurt

Joseph of Cupertino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
St.Joseph of Cupertino (1603-1663) would levitate while celebrating Mass
he was often confined to his quarters or moved to different communities by Church officials

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think all Protestants on this forum are aware there is a distinction between things like the Roman Magisterium and the Vatican, private devotions and folk catholicism. One can't look at apparitions or miracles that are popular among Catholic laity and declare them "official" Catholicism when most of them are not matters that can bind ones conscience. Not everything about Roman Catholicism is top down- a great deal of what Protestant label as "official" is driven by the laity and Catholicism contains a great deal of pluralism, local expression, and private opinions in that area.

 

[Rick Otto]

As far as self discipline from candy denial to self-flagellation...
too much of a good thing is not a good thing,

 

[Fireinfolding]

As far as self discipline from candy denial to self-flagellation...
too much of a good thing is not a good thing,

I just saw your signature, you crack me up

 

[christianmomof3]

I don't think all Protestants on this forum are aware there is a distinction between things like the Roman Magisterium and the Vatican, private devotions and folk catholicism. One can't look at apparitions or miracles that are popular among Catholic laity and declare them "official" Catholicism when most of them are not matters that can bind ones conscience. Not everything about Roman Catholicism is top down- a great deal of what Protestant label as "official" is driven by the laity and Catholicism contains a great deal of pluralism, local expression, and private opinions in that area.

I think that most non-Catholics do not know the difference. Since the RCC welcomes/allows/encompasses and does not deny the validity of so much of what many people see as total nonsense - like people flocking to see an image of Jesus or Mary on an underpass/chocolate dripping/piece of toast/apple core etc... then most people think that is enorsed by and a part of the Catholic religion. I have never seen any statements by the RCC denying or decrying that sort of thing.

 

[Rhamiel]

Odd that so much of this thread is being devoted to the Protoevangelium of James

that book is not considered cannon by any Church

it was a popular book among early Christians, but it is not counted as being authoritative as Scripture, no one even thinks it was really written by James