How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Rick Otto]

Sort of undoes the distinction between latria & hyper-dulia.

 

[Rick Otto]

It would be beneficial, Standing Up, if your claims were backed up by more than a bit of bold text taken from one of the messages given at Fatima. One ought to notice that even the truncated quote that you gave says that it is God who wishes to save and not that the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary that will save. The devotion is merely instrumental in God's purpose, just as saint "Paul's gospel" is merely instrumental in the saving purposes of God - as explained in the following verses: "They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:15-16 RSV)

Let us not play games with matters so important.

....& yet that is what you seem to be doing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nice explanation.

Thank you.

Below you quote from the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary (I presume, I haven't verified the quote because I doubt that you'd get it wrong) and ask some questions about the meaning of phrases used in the text you quote. I think it is important to bear in mind that Mary's immaculate heart is immaculate because it is free of wickedness and fully conformed to God's purposes and will. The whole point of the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary is to follow the example set by her faithfulness to God. Thus those who practise this devotion do so with the intention of serving God and conforming themselves to God's purposes and will as did Mary. None of what is written, said, or done in this devotion ought to be construed as glorifying anybody but God because Mary herself sought above all things to glorify God in her life and works.

And Mary said:
"My soul magnifies the Lord.
And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour.
For he has looked with favour on the humility of his handmaid.
For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed.
For he who is great has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation to generations for those who fear him.
He has accomplished powerful deeds with his arm.
He has scattered the arrogant in the intentions of their heart.
He has deposed the powerful from their seat, and he has exalted the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has taken up his servant Israel, mindful of his mercy, just as he spoke to our fathers:
to Abraham and to his offspring forever."
(Luke 1:46-55)
​

So this is from A Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary:

Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as You wish to accomplish Your designs in the world.

O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and Queen of the World, rule over us, together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King. Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism; kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity, the practice of a virtuous life, an ardent zeal for souls, and a desire to pray the Rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to You, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed Your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes Your shrine, and through us, make the Heart of Jesus, together with your rule, triumph in every heart and home.

Um, yeah, I don't know how you read this, but I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would petition Mary like this. What design does Mary have for the world? Why would she rule over us? How is she the "Throne of Grace", and why would you ask her to make your heart and homes her shrine? I also have an issue with the capitalization of the pronouns in regards to her.

Mary's design in the world is to do as God calls her to do and those who pray to be conformed to that design pray to be faithful to God's purposes in the world.

Mary rules over the faithful as a mother rules over her children yet, as with a family, Mary's rule is in conformity with the desire and intention of God thus when the faithful pray that Mary should rule over them their prayer is that God's will shall be done as it is in heaven here on the Earth among God's faithful people.

Mary is the throne of grace because grace incarnate - that is, our Lord Jesus Christ - was borne of Mary and it was Mary who provided Earthly shelter to her divine Son in his minority. As far as I know every title given by the faithful to Mary is a praise of Jesus Christ our God.

When the faithful welcome Mary into their hearts and homes it is because they welcome her Son our Lord and acknowledge her blessedness as God said all generations would. "from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48b)

I've never much liked capitalised pronouns for anybody. Those readers of this post who use a KJV will notice that pronouns applied to God are not capitalised therein.

Here's another:

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, in this tragic hour of the world's history, we entrust and consecrate ourselves to your Immaculate Heart, our only refuge, our hope, our salvation. Have pity on this world, torn by the most terrible conflicts, burning with the fires of hate, victim of its own sins. May your Heart be moved at the sight of so much ruin, pain and sorrow.

We consecrate to your maternal heart our persons, our families, our country--the whole of humanity. Protect and save us!

How in the world is Mary's heart our only refuge, hope and salvation? Really? Why does the world need her pity? Why would you ask her to protect and save you?

What you've asked here is similar in tone and content to the questions asked earlier in your post. I have already answered the earlier questions and will add answers to these too if you need them but I think you can see from what I've written above that the core of this devotion - the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary - is an exercise in personal prayer and piety reflecting on the godliness of Mary in order to incite similar godliness in those who practise this devotion. God is always and in every place the centre of the devotion while Mary (in this case) is the encouragement to which the practitioner looks while seeking to serve God as he ought to be served.

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

It would be beneficial, Standing Up, if your claims were backed up by more than a bit of bold text taken from one of the messages given at Fatima. One ought to notice that even the truncated quote that you gave says that it is God who wishes to save and not that the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary that will save. The devotion is merely instrumental in God's purpose, just as saint "Paul's gospel" is merely instrumental in the saving purposes of God - as explained in the following verses: "They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:15-16 RSV)

Let us not play games with matters so important.

​

Then you need to back up your claim that the quote points out it is God who wishes to save.
You say God wishes, but then say men make the free will decision that makes the difference between heaven & hell.

That's having it both ways.

 

[Stryder06]

Thank you.

Below you quote from the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary (I presume, I haven't verified the quote because I doubt that you'd get it wrong) and ask some questions about the meaning of phrases used in the text you quote. I think it is important to bear in mind that Mary's immaculate heart is immaculate because it is free of wickedness and fully conformed to God's purposes and will. The whole point of the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary is to follow the example set by her faithfulness to God. Thus those who practise this devotion do so with the intention of serving God and conforming themselves to God's purposes and will as did Mary. None of what is written, said, or done in this devotion ought to be construed as glorifying anybody but God because Mary herself sought above all things to glorify God in her life and works.

And Mary said:
"My soul magnifies the Lord.
And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour.
For he has looked with favour on the humility of his handmaid.
For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed.
For he who is great has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation to generations for those who fear him.
He has accomplished powerful deeds with his arm.
He has scattered the arrogant in the intentions of their heart.
He has deposed the powerful from their seat, and he has exalted the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has taken up his servant Israel, mindful of his mercy, just as he spoke to our fathers:
to Abraham and to his offspring forever."
(Luke 1:46-55)
​

Mary's design in the world is to do as God calls her to do and those who pray to be conformed to that design pray to be faithful to God's purposes in the world.

Mary rules over the faithful as a mother rules over her children yet, as with a family, Mary's rule is in conformity with the desire and intention of God thus when the faithful pray that Mary should rule over them their prayer is that God's will shall be done as it is in heaven here on the Earth among God's faithful people.

Mary is the throne of grace because grace incarnate - that is, our Lord Jesus Christ - was borne of Mary and it was Mary who provided Earthly shelter to her divine Son in his minority. As far as I know every title given by the faithful to Mary is a praise of Jesus Christ our God.

When the faithful welcome Mary into their hearts and homes it is because they welcome her Son our Lord and acknowledge her blessedness as God said all generations would. "from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48b)

I've never much liked capitalised pronouns for anybody. Those readers of this post who use a KJV will notice that pronouns applied to God are not capitalised therein.


What you've asked here is similar in tone and content to the questions asked earlier in your post. I have already answered the earlier questions and will add answers to these too if you need them but I think you can see from what I've written above that the core of this devotion - the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary - is an exercise in personal prayer and piety reflecting on the godliness of Mary in order to incite similar godliness in those who practise this devotion. God is always and in every place the centre of the devotion while Mary (in this case) is the encouragement to which the practitioner looks while seeking to serve God as he ought to be served.

I appreciate your response and read through it carefully. I however think that your explanation is based upon many an assumption. For instance, when you said "Mary's design in the world is to do what God calls her to do..." What exactly has God called her to do? And how can she save anyone from anything? Why petition her as such?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The question isn't whether Mary is special. Of course she is, and she ought to have a larger role in the piety of the church than that she has in Protestantism. She is, by all rights, the new ark of the covenant and the queen of heaven.

But the point that was being made was that Jesus' presence in the world, the sinful, fallen world, mitigates against an inference of Mary's sinlessness based on his presence in her womb for nine months. It's that inference that is suspect.

I believe it's more like this:

If you were God, and you wanted to fix the world, and you chose to do so by becoming one of your creatures, and you didn't want to just appear, because you might scare them, wouldn't the best way be to come as a baby? And if that was your chosen way, wouldn't you want your mother, knowing all she was going to go through for you, want to give her special grace? If it was me, I'd make my mother perfect, so that she would never have to suffer the effects of sin. I'd make her the purest of the pure. I'd make her sinless, I'd make her ever-virgin, and I'd make her queen of heaven, me being the king.

Albion asks why should this be a dogma, well, all I can say is that we're pretty protective of our Mother. We want all our brothers and sisters to have the same regard for her.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well, I could, but that requires me to be on CF 24/7. Besides, most RCC's/EO's here seem to do quite well on that by themselves. You all don't seem to scare too easily and can defend your own faith better than I possibly could.

That one post just seemed to suggest that non-RC/EO are unlearned and that stuff just gets under my skin, especially when these questions are of significant importance to me personally at the moment.

I wonder how many "RCC"'s there are...Show of hands? OK, how about "C"s?

 

[Stryder06]

I believe it's more like this:

If you were God, and you wanted to fix the world, and you chose to do so by becoming one of your creatures, and you didn't want to just appear, because you might scare them, wouldn't the best way be to come as a baby? And if that was your chosen way, wouldn't you want your mother, knowing all she was going to go through for you, want to give her special grace? If it was me, I'd make my mother perfect, so that she would never have to suffer the effects of sin. I'd make her the purest of the pure. I'd make her sinless, I'd make her ever-virgin, and I'd make her queen of heaven, me being the king.

Too bad it wasn't you, cause that's not how God did it.

Albion asks why should this be a dogma, well, all I can say is that we're pretty protective of our Mother. We want all our brothers and sisters to have the same regard for her.

Too bad she's not your mother.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I believe it's more like this:

If you were God, and you wanted to fix the world, and you chose to do so by becoming one of your creatures, and you didn't want to just appear, because you might scare them, wouldn't the best way be to come as a baby? And if that was your chosen way, wouldn't you want your mother, knowing all she was going to go through for you, want to give her special grace? If it was me, I'd make my mother perfect, so that she would never have to suffer the effects of sin. I'd make her the purest of the pure. I'd make her sinless, I'd make her ever-virgin, ever-virgin, ever-virgin....

LOL!, Jesus is a jerk.

"Ew, mom having sex? Lets just take that off the table..."

Sorry, I'm totally cool with Mary's perpetual virginity, but seriously, terrible time to throw that one in there.

"Mom, I love you so much, you're never going to experience sin."
"Wow, thank you."
"Because you're going to deliver to the people of God their savior."
"I'm honored!"
"And then, you're going to be my queen-mother."
"Then my goodness, I'm glad you've filled me with grace."
"And then you're never going to have sex!"
......
"Um.... thanks?"

Fine dogma, terrible argument.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Too bad she's not your mother.

Psst. She IS.

 

[Root of Jesse]

LOL!, Jesus is a jerk.

"Ew, mom having sex? Lets just take that off the table..."

Sorry, I'm totally cool with Mary's perpetual virginity, but seriously, terrible time to throw that one in there.

"Mom, I love you so much, you're never going to experience sin."
"Wow, thank you."
"Because you're going to deliver to the people of God their savior."
"I'm honored!"
"And then, you're going to be my queen-mother."
"Then my goodness, I'm glad you've filled me with grace."
"And then you're never going to have sex!"
......
"Um.... thanks?"

Fine dogma, terrible argument.

How about being obedient to the will of God? Means nothing to you, I guess. But if you're an athlete, go ahead, sacrifice hours of training, pain, sweat, blood, diet, and so on to be a good athlete. If you're a scholar, sacrifice hours upon hours of study, time with family, and so on to be a scholar. If you're a musician, sacrifice hours on hours in a lonely room to be the best you can be! As St. Paul tells us, the athlete does all of that for a wreathe of olive leaves. Mary did it for love of God.

I guess it depends on what's important to you...a few minutes of pleasure that never lasts, or eternal happiness. What a jerk of a son!

 

[Stryder06]

Psst. She IS.

Psssst. She ISN'T

 

[Stryder06]

As St. Paul tells us, the athlete does all of that for a wreathe of olive leaves. Mary did it for love of God.

I guess it depends on what's important to you...a few minutes of pleasure that never lasts, or eternal happiness. What a jerk of a son!

Problem though is that Mary wasn't told to sacrifice anything. Your church has made those assumptions.

 

[Rick Otto]

LOL!, Jesus is a jerk.

"Ew, mom having sex? Lets just take that off the table..."

Sorry, I'm totally cool with Mary's perpetual virginity, but seriously, terrible time to throw that one in there.

"Mom, I love you so much, you're never going to experience sin."
"Wow, thank you."
"Because you're going to deliver to the people of God their savior."
"I'm honored!"
"And then, you're going to be my queen-mother."
"Then my goodness, I'm glad you've filled me with grace."
"And then you're never going to have sex!"
......
"Um.... thanks?"

Fine dogma, terrible argument.

LOL!

 

[Rev Randy]

I've already commented on the above observation, but I've continued to think about it. The comparison between members of the reformed churches and the unreformed churches is striking on this matter.

While we go to the Father, confident that he wants to hear from us and will deny us nothing that is good for us--just as Jesus taught--our friends in the other branches of Christianity are actually afraid to do that. They think that their prayers and petitions are unworthy to be heard by God and so they must find a "broker" or agent to carry them to the Father on their behalf--a broker or representative who has more influence with God.

That is exactly what the RCC has taught generations of its people, and it's a great pity. If only these otherwise sincere followers of Christ could be made to understand that Our Father is waiting to hear from us....

I'm pretty certian the RCC teaches there people to pray an "Our Father". The mindset that it's one or the other is not a realistic mindset when thinking of others.

 

[sunlover1]

I believe it's more like this:

If you were God, and you wanted to fix the world, and you chose to do so by becoming one of your creatures, and you didn't want to just appear, because you might scare them, wouldn't the best way be to come as a baby? And if that was your chosen way, wouldn't you want your mother, knowing all she was going to go through for you, want to give her special grace? If it was me, I'd make my mother perfect, so that she would never have to suffer the effects of sin. I'd make her the purest of the pure. I'd make her sinless, I'd make her ever-virgin, and I'd make her queen of heaven, me being the king.

Albion asks why should this be a dogma, well, all I can say is that we're pretty protective of our Mother. We want all our brothers and sisters to have the same regard for her.

WHY would you make her ever virgin?
What does the flesh profit anyhow?

 

[sunlover1]

How about being obedient to the will of God? Means nothing to you, I guess. But if you're an athlete, go ahead, sacrifice hours of training, pain, sweat, blood, diet, and so on to be a good athlete. If you're a scholar, sacrifice hours upon hours of study, time with family, and so on to be a scholar. If you're a musician, sacrifice hours on hours in a lonely room to be the best you can be! As St. Paul tells us, the athlete does all of that for a wreathe of olive leaves. Mary did it for love of God.

I guess it depends on what's important to you...a few minutes of pleasure that never lasts, or eternal happiness. What a jerk of a son!

So having sex is being disobedient?
...

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm pretty certian the RCC teaches there people to pray an "Our Father". The mindset that it's one or the other is not a realistic mindset when thinking of others.

anyone who ever sat through the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church or Eucharistic Adoration in a Catholic Church would know that neither group has any problem going straight to God

it is not something we begrudgingly accept
it is something we wildly encourage

 

[Root of Jesse]

Problem though is that Mary wasn't told to sacrifice anything. Your church has made those assumptions.

She wasn't? I'd say asking someone to allow the Holy Spirit to create life in you, bear him in your womb, mother him to adult-hood, and watch him suffer the horrid brutality Christ suffered for us isn't what you would call "Sacrifice"? That's asside from the tradition that she sacrificed herself to be a temple virgin, and aside from the widowhood she suffered after Christ's crucifixion.

Nah, no sacrifice there. Nothing to see, move along.

 

[Root of Jesse]

WHY would you make her ever virgin?
What does the flesh profit anyhow?

Exactly. What does fleshly pleasure profit?