How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

It might be useful to know what devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means, right?
​

Yes, please. Also, Sacred Heart of Jesus.

It is Jesus that searches the heart, at least according to Reve 2:23

Jeremiah 17:10 I YAHWEH, searching heart, examining the affections
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings.
[Reve 2:23]

Reve 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death, and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I am the One searching kidneys/reigns and hearts
and I shall be giving to each of ye according to the works of ye.
[Jeremiah 17:10]

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

would you please explain it?
I tried the best that I could and I still feel like I did a poor job :/

Devotions are practises that incline the practitioner to give to God what is due to him as creator, governor, and final end of all things. The Church recommends to the faithful that they pray daily, examine their conscience, confess, take time to withdraw from worldly concerns, and engage in private acts of piety. These things are devotions.

As with many things in the Christian life there is a kind of hierarchy of goods implied in the very nature of devotions. Thus one ought to consider that private devotions are subordinate to liturgical devotions and that among the liturgical devotions there is also an order implied. So, when we speak of devotions in general one ought to keep in mind that devotion is most deeply expressed in the Mass and in the prayer of the church - that is, the liturgy of the hours - and that devotions related to private revelations (such as Fatima, Lourdes, and the devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus as well as the Immaculate Heart of Mary) are always to be subordinate to the main liturgical devotions mentioned above.

Keeping in mind the distinctions mentioned above one ought to note first that devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary is a private devotion and as such is a private act of piety - it can no more save a person than any acts of piety, prayer, and service to God can. So, answering the question about the place of such devotions in the economy of salvation we ought to observe that all acts of prayer, confession, examination of conscience and so forth are means through which one can grow closer to God but they are not means by which one is saved. Salvation is always and only a work of God in the souls of the faithful (who are sinners come to God for salvation) and never a work wrought by any human being other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Having set the stage you can consider the contents of the two devotions; namely, devotion to the sacred heart of Jesus and devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary.

I recommend that those interested in the details of the devotions click this link and read the prayers and comments contained therein.​

If you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church in printed form then turn to the following section:

• PART FOUR: CHRISTIAN PRAYER
  • SECTION ONE: PRAYER IN THE CHRISTIAN LIFE
    • CHAPTER TWO: THE TRADITION OF PRAYER
      • ARTICLE 2: THE WAY OF PRAYER (page 640 in my printed edition of the CCC)

And read that article; it starts at Paragraph 2663.
Or click this link to see the article online.

 

[Rick Otto]

That's right. What happens at these apparitions is not really in the category of prophesy because it doesn't introduce much that could be called an alteration to the faith.

And they clearly do have the ability to inspire the faithful. But it's undeniable that those who are believed to have seen and heard the mysterious woman--the children at Fatima, for instance--are anything but special...and the predictions supposedly made by the Virgin are nothing to make mankind joyous.

Like the woman with the spirit that Paul silenced, the alteration to the faith isn't in what she said, rather it was an attemp to alter one's faith in the source of truth.
An attractive truth like Mary on the hook of a false presentation could suspend one's critical thinking long enough for us to accept misleading falsehoods.
Just sayin...

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm not protesting anything. I was applauding the argument that our God spent 33 years on a sin-filled planet. On purpose.

Yeah, it doesn't seem consistent to say He couldn't be adjacent to sin in the womb & then He spends 33years on a planet so sin filled He had to drown it once.

 

[Rick Otto]

6:40 and I'm just checking in to see if the question has been answered yet.

"Here's your chance. Where does the bible or tradition or catechism say: to be saved, devote yourself to the immaculate heart?"

>crickets<
​

 

[Standing Up]

"I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart

it is not salvific in the sense that you are saved by it

Eh, what? To save them does not mean salvific. Okay, after all these were mere children and no doubt had no idea what they had gotten themselves into.

So, to the OP, the children's marian visions are meaningless nonsense whose words are undefined by adults.

 

[Standing Up]

Devotions are practises that incline the practitioner to give to God what is due to him as creator, governor, and final end of all things.-snip-

Fair enough. Let's hope you don't follow the poor misguided children. For they don't say what you say.

They don't say the devotions go to God, but to an unknown entity named Immaculate Heart (IH).

"I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart."
-Fatima, 2nd vision-

The children are conduits telling you to devote yourself to some IH, not to God.

Of course, one may think, well my devotion to "Mary" goes to God, but that's not what the youngsters instruct you to do.

To the OP, the answer is: God sent His Son. Spread the Good News, rather than support who-knows-what.

PS. you should add DEVOTION TO SACRED HEART WILL GET YOU SAVED to your list of Protestant errors.

PPS. you should also add, THEOLOGY INSTRUCTION BY CHILDREN IS ACCEPTABLE.

and CHILDREN'S VISIONS ARE ACCEPTABLE FOR SOUND DOCTRINE.

 

[Standing Up]

"Here's your chance. Where does the bible or tradition or catechism say: to be saved, devote yourself to the immaculate heart?"

>crickets<
​

Yeah, still waiting for the DR version that says, devote yourself to something called Immaculate Heart taught by youngsters, and you will be saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

"I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart

Eh, what? To save them does not mean salvific. Okay, after all these were mere children and no doubt had no idea what they had gotten themselves into.

So, to the OP, the children's marian visions are meaningless nonsense whose words are undefined by adults.

It would be beneficial, Standing Up, if your claims were backed up by more than a bit of bold text taken from one of the messages given at Fatima. One ought to notice that even the truncated quote that you gave says that it is God who wishes to save and not that the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary that will save. The devotion is merely instrumental in God's purpose, just as saint "Paul's gospel" is merely instrumental in the saving purposes of God - as explained in the following verses: "They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:15-16 RSV)

Let us not play games with matters so important.

 

[Standing Up]

It would be beneficial, Standing Up, if your claims were backed up by more than a bit of bold text taken from one of the messages given at Fatima. One ought to notice that even the truncated quote that you gave says that it is God who wishes to save and not that the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary that will save. -snipped as inaccurate comparison-
Let us not play games with matters so important.

Let us not.

You are begging the question. You are assuming the vision is from God. Is it? Does the vision even come close to matching anything in your bible? Or even general RC theology----you think your devotions to "Mary" will save you? Please find that in your catechism for us.

"I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. "
Our Lady of Fátima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

THE VISION: To save sinners, God wants the world devoted to some entity's immaculate heart (IH). Where, again, in the Christian bible or tradition or even RC catechism is this?

This is serious. These children have a vision that directs them away from Christ to IH. This can't be construed as positive.

PS. One would think if that entity really were Jesus' mother, she might actually point the kids to the One who saves, her Son, Jesus of Nazareth. (You know, like this:
"The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." Who did Paul preach? An IH, or Christ?

Please answer. Who? IH or Christ?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Standing Up:

"Oh my Jesus, forgives us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy."

 

[MoreCoffee]

"I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart

Eh, what? To save them does not mean salvific. Okay, after all these were mere children and no doubt had no idea what they had gotten themselves into.

So, to the OP, the children's marian visions are meaningless nonsense whose words are undefined by adults.

It would be beneficial, Standing Up, if your claims were backed up by more than a bit of bold text taken from one of the messages given at Fatima. One ought to notice that even the truncated quote that you gave says that it is God who wishes to save and not that the devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary that will save. The devotion is merely instrumental in God's purpose, just as saint "Paul's gospel" is merely instrumental in the saving purposes of God - as explained in the following verses: "They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:15-16 RSV)

Let us not play games with matters so important.

Let us not.

You are begging the question. You are assuming the vision is from God. Is it?

The source of the vision has little to do with the observation that I made about the bold text from your earlier post. The facts of the matter are simple. One can establish them by reading the post that you wrote and the quote that you included in it; specifically, you quoted these words "I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart" and the words in that quote clearly attribute the salvation of souls to God who wishes it and not to the devotion to The Immaculate Heart of Mary. So, let us not make a game of this by misrepresenting the words in the quote nor by selectively using bold text as if by so doing the words somehow take on a different meaning nor by falsely claiming that my reply to your misrepresentation somehow begs the question by using circular reasoning. It is neither my claim nor my intention to teach that the visions of the children at Fatima are from God just as it is not my claim nor my intention to teach that they are not from God. Let the words of the visions speak for themselves and people will decide for themselves if they come from God or not.

Does the vision even come close to matching anything in your bible? Or even general RC theology----you think your devotions to "Mary" will save you? Please find that in your catechism for us.

"I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. "
Our Lady of Fátima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

THE VISION: To save sinners, God wants the world devoted to some entity's immaculate heart (IH). Where, again, in the Christian bible or tradition or even RC catechism is this?

This is serious. These children have a vision that directs them away from Christ to IH. This can't be construed as positive.

The rest of your post is not well reasoned nor apropos anything I've previously written.

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up:

"Oh my Jesus, forgives us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy."

Oops. Not clear that that prayer ties directly to the visions, but preceeded it by centuries. And was attached later.

Again, always try to add some truth to a lie, it helps the deception.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Awesome. There is always a bit of truth in a lie, else no one sensible would swallow the lie.

One feels sure that such words are a comfort to cynics everywhere

 

[Standing Up]

One feels sure that such words are a comfort to cynics everywhere

Ask Eve. Did God really say ...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ask Eve. Did God really say ...

Another rhetorical tool with no real content? Please, tell me what Eve would likely say, since it is obvious that Eve will not be speaking on this thread.

 

[Standing Up]

The source of the vision has little to do with the observation that I made about the bold text from your earlier post. The facts of the matter are simple. One can establish them by reading the post that you wrote and the quote that you included in it; specifically, you quoted these words "I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart" and the words in that quote clearly attribute the salvation of souls to God who wishes it and not to the devotion to The Immaculate Heart of Mary.-snip-

You're simply wrong. The children are deceived. Maybe this will help us to reason this out together---

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

To save sinners, God sent His Son. God does not reveal to us in either the bible or tradition that He wishes to save people by some devotion to an entity known as immaculate heart (IH).

 

[Standing Up]

Another rhetorical tool with no real content? Please, tell me what Eve would likely say, since it is obvious that Eve will not be speaking on this thread.

Go read the exchange for yourself. Lies only work if there's a bit of truth mixed in with the falsehood.

Have what is an obvious false vision that contradicts scripture and tradition, that draws people away from Christ, and add a centuries old prayer to Jesus at it's end, and call it a day.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The source of the vision has little to do with the observation that I made about the bold text from your earlier post. The facts of the matter are simple. One can establish them by reading the post that you wrote and the quote that you included in it; specifically, you quoted these words "I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart" and the words in that quote clearly attribute the salvation of souls to God who wishes it and not to the devotion to The Immaculate Heart of Mary. So, let us not make a game of this by misrepresenting the words in the quote nor by selectively using bold text as if by so doing the words somehow take on a different meaning nor by falsely claiming that my reply to your misrepresentation somehow begs the question by using circular reasoning. It is neither my claim nor my intention to teach that the visions of the children at Fatima are from God just as it is not my claim nor my intention to teach that they are not from God. Let the words of the visions speak for themselves and people will decide for themselves if they come from God or not.


The rest of your post is not well reasoned nor apropos anything I've previously written.

You're simply wrong. The children are deceived. Maybe this will help us to reason this out together---

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

To save sinners, God sent His Son. God does not reveal to us in either the bible or tradition that He wishes to save people by some devotion to an entity known as immaculate heart (IH).

Somehow your opinion does not seem sufficient reason to say I was wrong about anything in the post that you quoted. No doubt you will add an explanation of what was "wrong" and why. But until then I'll press on with sound reason and judgement and let you opine to your heart's content.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ask Eve. Did God really say ...

Another rhetorical tool with no real content? Please, tell me what Eve would likely say, since it is obvious that Eve will not be speaking on this thread.

Go read the exchange for yourself. Lies only work if there's a bit of truth mixed in with the falsehood.

Have what is an obvious false vision that contradicts scripture and tradition, that draws people away from Christ, and add a centuries old prayer to Jesus at it's end, and call it a day.

Well this is going nowhere. Thanks for your input