How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[seeingeyes]

I don't know whether Joseph was a widow, or his family status. I never spoke about Joseph.

It is funny, you speak of spiritual discernment, then you say "I would think..." That doesn't seem spiritual at all, to me. We don't have anything set in stone about Joseph, all we know is that Jesus worked with him. We know he did what angel Gabriel told him to do-take Mary to Bethlehem.

What we preclude is that Mary is the type of the Ark of the Covenant, which God had built as sacred and undefiled. Why? Because it contained sacred things-manna, the Ten Commandments, and the staff of the High Priest Aaron. It was sacred. Mary also contained the sacred-the Bread of Life, the Word of God, and the High Priest. We also know, from Revelation, that God cannot abide anything sinful-there is no sin in heaven. So Mary could not have been sinful.

Since this post has already sped off-topic, around the bend, and off a cliff, I'd like to ask about this.

If it was necessary for Mary to be sinless in order to carry sinless Jesus, then was it necessary for Mary's mother to be sinless in order to carry sinless Mary?

 

[Albion]

To you, I guess not.

Or to you.

But it does make the case.

Not in the least. I'd explain why not, but it's obvious that your m.o. is to simply repeat whatever your church has said you are to believe. That is your right, but it doesn't make for real discussions.

 

[Stryder06]

I don't know whether Joseph was a widow, or his family status. I never spoke about Joseph.

You would need to infer him since Jesus didn't have two daddy's.

It is funny, you speak of spiritual discernment, then you say "I would think..." That doesn't seem spiritual at all, to me. We don't have anything set in stone about Joseph, all we know is that Jesus worked with him. We know he did what angel Gabriel told him to do-take Mary to Bethlehem.

You can't discern if you don't think. "I would think.." is a manner of speech. It's no different than saying "I would hope" at least that's how I meant it. With that said, I don't recall Gabriel telling Joseph to take Mary to Bethlehem. I do recall him telling Joseph not to be afraid to marry her. Oh, and I want to know how you get around this verse:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus

If Mary were ever-virgin, why say that he knew her not till (until)...and specify that Jesus was her firstborn?

What we preclude is that Mary is the type of the Ark of the Covenant, which God had built as sacred and undefiled. Why? Because it contained sacred things-manna, the Ten Commandments, and the staff of the High Priest Aaron. It was sacred. Mary also contained the sacred-the Bread of Life, the Word of God, and the High Priest. We also know, from Revelation, that God cannot abide anything sinful-there is no sin in heaven. So Mary could not have been sinful.

Ok so you're wrong on both fronts about Mary. 1st she is not a type the ark of the covenant. The ark was designed to hold the law of God, i.e. The Ten commandments. Circumstances with the rebellious attitude of Israel lead to God giving the ok for Aaron's rod, and the manna to be held inside as a keep sake. However, from the beginning, God told Moses that he was to put the law which would be given him inside of the ark. That said, the ark represents the throne of God. There's a reason why the mercy seat went on top of it, and why two cherubim were placed on either side.

As far as God not being able to abide anything sinful, I agree with you. That however is why Christ came in the form of a man. If what you're saying was true, not only Mary, but all of humanity would have needed to be sinless, or else God would have been abiding sin.

 

[Rick Otto]

We also know, from Revelation, that God cannot abide anything sinful-there is no sin in heaven. So Mary could not have been sinful.

Fascinating,... and yet He managed 33yrs in a sinful world.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Fascinating,... and yet He managed 33yrs in a sinful world.

Point.

 

[seeingeyes]

Fascinating,... and yet He managed 33yrs in a sinful world.

Wow. Bullseye.

 

[Standing Up]

Time to bump this, since it speaks to the OP. Non-catholics would explain it as deception, pointing Christians away from Christ. But perhaps those who believe them "Christian" can answer this:

" "I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. "
Our Lady of Fátima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Here's your chance. Where does the bible or tradition or catechism say: to be saved, devote yourself to the immaculate heart?

Please show us. Many people are interested.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Wow. Bullseye.

Actually...missed the point. Missed the whole target.

And I guess the salutation 'full of grace' loses it's meaning with you, too.

The Protestant view of Mary is really strange...She gave birth to the Son who was before all ages, but hey, she was just a Jewish girl. Nothing to see there...let's pull her out at Christmas and put her back the day after, along with the Christmas tree.

Folks, she held in her womb that which the entire universe couldn't contain. She was special by the grace of God. Ah, so what.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Time to bump this, since it speaks to the OP. Non-catholics would explain it as deception, pointing Christians away from Christ. But perhaps those who believe them "Christian" can answer this:

Who ever said to be saved you have to do this??? I really want to know. In fact, Fatima, Lourdes, any of the approved apparitions, none of them must be believed. The reason for their continued devotion is the wonders and miracles which have proceeded from them.

 

[seeingeyes]

Actually...missed the point. Missed the whole target.

And I guess the salutation 'full of grace' loses it's meaning with you, too.

The Protestant view of Mary is really strange...She gave birth to the Son who was before all ages, but hey, she was just a Jewish girl. Nothing to see there...let's pull her out at Christmas and put her back the day after, along with the Christmas tree.

Folks, she held in her womb that which the entire universe couldn't contain. She was special by the grace of God. Ah, so what.

I'm not protesting anything. I was applauding the argument that our God spent 33 years on a sin-filled planet. On purpose.

 

[Albion]

6:40 and I'm just checking in to see if the question has been answered yet.

Here's your chance. Where does the bible or tradition or catechism say: to be saved, devote yourself to the immaculate heart?

 

[Rhamiel]

Since this post has already sped off-topic, around the bend, and off a cliff, I'd like to ask about this.

If it was necessary for Mary to be sinless in order to carry sinless Jesus, then was it necessary for Mary's mother to be sinless in order to carry sinless Mary?

I hope to not get off topic

I do not think Mary had to be sinless in order to carry Jesus who is true God and true Man

but I think that it was fitting for Mary to be sinless

Mary is often compared to the Ark of the Covenant
the ark carried the law (the ten commandments) and Mary carried Jesus who is the fulfillment of the Law
the ark carried manna from heaven, and Jesus is the bread come down from heaven
the ark carried the rod of Aaron the high priest, and Jesus is our Great High Priest

notice these things were not just carried around in a cardboard box
they were put in something specially made and of great value, something that was Holy, in that it was set aside by special use by God

but just as the ark was not made by perfect people
the parents of Mary were not immaculate
we do believe that both the parents of Mary, and Aaron and Moses were holy people who seeked to do the will of God, but neither set was perfect

 

[Albion]

I hope to not get off topic

I do not think Mary had to be sinless in order to carry Jesus who is true God and true Man

but I think that it was fitting for Mary to be sinless

I guess the question that many people would ask is "Is that sufficient justification for making it into a dogma?"

That aside, I don't personally think that it is especially important that she be sinless, considering that Christ deigned to become one of his creatures and be born in a humble setting like he was. I don't see any reason why his mother shouldn't be one of us also.

 

[seeingeyes]

I hope to not get off topic

I do not think Mary had to be sinless in order to carry Jesus who is true God and true Man

but I think that it was fitting for Mary to be sinless

Mary is often compared to the Ark of the Covenant
the ark carried the law (the ten commandments) and Mary carried Jesus who is the fulfillment of the Law
the ark carried manna from heaven, and Jesus is the bread come down from heaven
the ark carried the rod of Aaron the high priest, and Jesus is our Great High Priest

notice these things were not just carried around in a cardboard box
they were put in something specially made and of great value, something that was Holy, in that it was set aside by special use by God

but just as the ark was not made by perfect people
the parents of Mary were not immaculate
we do believe that both the parents of Mary, and Aaron and Moses were holy people who seeked to do the will of God, but neither set was perfect

Thanks for your explanation, brother.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Actually...missed the point. Missed the whole target.

And I guess the salutation 'full of grace' loses it's meaning with you, too.

The Protestant view of Mary is really strange...She gave birth to the Son who was before all ages, but hey, she was just a Jewish girl. Nothing to see there...let's pull her out at Christmas and put her back the day after, along with the Christmas tree.

Folks, she held in her womb that which the entire universe couldn't contain. She was special by the grace of God. Ah, so what.

The question isn't whether Mary is special. Of course she is, and she ought to have a larger role in the piety of the church than that she has in Protestantism. She is, by all rights, the new ark of the covenant and the queen of heaven.

But the point that was being made was that Jesus' presence in the world, the sinful, fallen world, mitigates against an inference of Mary's sinlessness based on his presence in her womb for nine months. It's that inference that is suspect.

 

[Standing Up]

" "I have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. "
Our Lady of Fátima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who ever said to be saved you have to do this??? I really want to know. In fact, Fatima, Lourdes, any of the approved apparitions, none of them must be believed. The reason for their continued devotion is the wonders and miracles which have proceeded from them.

To save sinners, God wishes devotion to some entity's Immaculate Heart.

Does that sound correct?

Or does this:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, which is it? Believe in Christ for salvation OR devotion to some entity's Immaculate Heart for salvation?

Show us in the catechism or bible or tradition where devotion to IH is salvific. If you can't find it, then obviously the vision is deception at its best.

 

[Rhamiel]

Show us in the catechism or bible or tradition where devotion to IH is salvific. If you can't find it, then obviously the vision is deception at its best.

it is not salvific in the sense that you are saved by it

it is like if a pastor was saying "we are having a revival! we are going to be preaching! we are going to be singing hymns! why are we doing this? for the salvation of poor lost sinners!"
we are not saved by revivals
we are saved by Jesus Christ
but revivals can be used to introduce people to Jesus Christ
same with devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

but in common speech, it makes sense to talk about how we came to know Christ as something that "got us saved"

the Immaculate Heart of Mary is a symbol
it is the symbol of the relationship between God and those who are faithful to Him
God gives us grace
we cooperate with that grace, we conform ourselves to that grace, we worship God
and then He blesses us in ways that we can not even imagine, He fills us up, He heals us

God acts first
this is not about earning our salvation
Mary was immaculately conceived, she was protected from sin since conception
what can a baby do to merit such grace?
nothing
she was given an amazing gift
what does she do with the gift?
she cherishes it
she stays close to God
she reads the scriptures and she lives her life according to them
and how is she rewarded?
she is the Mother of the Messiah!

so this devotion is not salvific
but so many lost sinners have turned away from sin and have devoted themselves to Christ because of this devotion
God has used this to soften the hearts of stone, as a way of making them ready to accept the Gospel
mostly this has helped nominal Catholics in Catholic countries
but there are stories of conversion from former Jews and Atheists who say that if it was not for someone telling them about the Immaculate Heart of Mary, or praying to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for them, they would have never found Christ

 

[MoreCoffee]

It might be useful to know what devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means, right?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It might be useful to know what devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means, right?

Yes, please. Also, Sacred Heart of Jesus.

 

[Rhamiel]

It might be useful to know what devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means, right?

would you please explain it?
I tried the best that I could and I still feel like I did a poor job :/