How do I "stimulate", my Evolution? I can be stimulated to embrace the theory, but what next?

[Mr Laurier]

My wonkey foot makes perfect sense to me though you have no clue why it does.
Your lack of insight has no effect on my knowledge.

Your wonky foot works because you dont have to chase down a gazelle.
Your good enough foot is fine for walking on a carpeted floor of an office complex.
It works well on the flat and even floor of a grocery store.
You can even go cross country for a short while, with shoes.
But try to walk from one water hole to the next, on the open savanna, barefoot.
Somehow I think only the lions will be happy

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're not talking about a theistic evolution though, you're talking about an abiogenesis naturalist origin of life.
When you say "life is the product of evolution" that is what you are getting at.
Not just talking about evolution as a biological process.
But evolution as the origin of life itself.
and that leads to nihilism.

Abiogenesis is a different topic than evolution. When one speaks of evolution without any qualifiers that means that one is discussing the evolution of life after it exists. We can discuss abiogenesis later. But if one cannot understand evolution then there is no way that person can understand abiogenesis. Life as we know it today is the product of evolution. What the original source of that life was does not make any difference.

And you would have to support your last sentence. Merely stating an opinion does not make it so.

If you learn how we know that life today is the product of evolution then we can discuss abiogenesis. That concept is also supported by scientific evidence. Do you know what beliefs have no scientific evidence at all? I will tell you. There is no scientific evidence for creationism. Creationists just can't seem to find any.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When he said "life is the product of evolution" he wasn't talking about just a biological process but, specifically origin of life.

and while maybe not murder, you still sin, and you would rather ignore the deadly weight of that sin, relying on the belief that you will never be judged for it.

No, when I speak of abiogenesis, I speak of abiogenesis. Some creationists call any science that they do not like "evolution". I do not make that error. The Big Bang is not evolution. Cosmology is not evolution. The Nebular Hypothesis is not evolution. And abiogenesis is not evolution.

 

[Jamdoc]

No god, no sin. Don't believe in either.

and there it is... the real reason for believing in no God.
the attempt to avoid judgement even though your conscience tells you what you're doing is wrong and deserves punishment.

 

[Subduction Zone]

and there it is... the real reason for believing in no God.
the attempt to avoid judgement even though your consciousness tells you what you're doing is wrong and deserves punishment.

No. It is not an attempt to avoid judgment. My consciousness never tells me that. I am not perfect, but one does not deserve a punishment worse than the offense. Most atheists that are Christians became atheists due to a superior understanding of the Bible.

 

[Hans Blaster]

and there it is... the real reason for believing in no God.
the attempt to avoid judgement even though your conscience tells you what you're doing is wrong and deserves punishment.

Why do you have to be that way? Really.

You don't know me at all and trying to pretend you do is insulting.

I stopped believing in your god because I didn't find the "evidence" convincing anymore, especially about the historical claims. When I understood the history of the "biblical times" better and the origins of the bible it no longer felt true anymore.

I used to be catholic, so I really get the "guilt" thing. I don't feel any of it anymore. It all means nothing to me at this point.

Now, do you want to discuss the OP's evolution claims (and related evolution/creation questions arising therefrom), or do you just want to throw accusations at us?

 

[Jamdoc]

Why do you have to be that way? Really.

You don't know me at all and trying to pretend you do is insulting.

I stopped believing in your god because I didn't find the "evidence" convincing anymore, especially about the historical claims. When I understood the history of the "biblical times" better and the origins of the bible it no longer felt true anymore.

I used to be catholic, so I really get the "guilt" thing. I don't feel any of it anymore. It all means nothing to me at this point.

Now, do you want to discuss the OP's evolution claims (and related evolution/creation questions arising therefrom), or do you just want to throw accusations at us?

It isn't personal.
If you know Romans then you know Romans 3:23

I can not know your sins because I don't know you
but I can know you're a sinner, like me, because we all are.

 

[Freodin]

and there it is... the real reason for believing in no God.
the attempt to avoid judgement even though your conscience tells you what you're doing is wrong and deserves punishment.

I think I understand your reason for making such a statement. My thought on this would include attributing some kind of motivation to you that I cannot be certain about without a deep and personal knowledge of you, so I will acknowlegde that my thought may be incorrect, and I won't publicise them here.

But as you do not seem to have such inhibitions, I will try to address your claim:
There are some things that my conscience tells me are wrong. Mostly, I refrain from doing them. Sometimes I do... for whatever reasons, valid or not, spontaneous or not.

In some cases, I can still justify my actions, understanding that there was no better, no known or even no possible other option in such a situation. Sometimes I regret what I did and feel bad about it.
Sometimes I even feel bad about it because I fear the reaction of others, or even retribution.

But in all those case, I am aware and accepting of the outside agents that can and would react and retribute.

I don't believe in God. I do not fear retribution from a source that I do not believe exist.
That's the direction that reasoning goes.

I am very certain that you have thought that go in exactly the same way. You don't treat cows are holy beings, because you don't believe in Hinduism. You don't avoid stepping on cracks in the pavement because you don't believe in monsters that want to eat your mother if you do.
Or do you seriously and deliberately deny the existence of mother-eating monsters, because you want to step on cracks, even when your conscience tells you it is wrong?

That is the second part of that position: your conscience doesn't tell you that stepping on cracks in wrong... or does it?
In very much the same way, my conscience doesn't act up on a lot of stuff that your religion tries to tell me is "sinful". There even are a few instances where my conscience does tell me that your religious demands are "wrong".

So, no, what you claimed is not the "real reason" for believing in no God.
I cannot and will not speak for anyone but me: my personal reason to be an atheist is because the existence of any form of "deity" is either irrelevant or self-contradicting.
Especially religions like Christianity simply don't make any sense to me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It isn't personal.
If you know Romans then you know Romans 3:23

I can not know your sins because I don't know you
but I can know you're a sinner, like me, because we all are.

Using the Bible in a debate against atheists is not a wise strategy on your part. Now you need to prove that the Bible is reliable.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It isn't personal.
If you know Romans then you know Romans 3:23

I can not know your sins because I don't know you
but I can know you're a sinner, like me, because we all are.

I said I knew about Romans 1, not the whole book. After the reading the first chapter I had no want to read anymore.

Again. Stop it. Sin means nothing to me. It's just church noise.

 

[Jamdoc]

I said I knew about Romans 1, not the whole book. After the reading the first chapter I had no want to read anymore.

Again. Stop it. Sin means nothing to me. It's just church noise.

Remember where you are.

I don't go to atheistforums.

I think I understand your reason for making such a statement. My thought on this would include attributing some kind of motivation to you that I cannot be certain about without a deep and personal knowledge of you, so I will acknowlegde that my thought may be incorrect, and I won't publicise them here.

But as you do not seem to have such inhibitions, I will try to address your claim:
There are some things that my conscience tells me are wrong. Mostly, I refrain from doing them. Sometimes I do... for whatever reasons, valid or not, spontaneous or not.

In some cases, I can still justify my actions, understanding that there was no better, no known or even no possible other option in such a situation. Sometimes I regret what I did and feel bad about it.
Sometimes I even feel bad about it because I fear the reaction of others, or even retribution.

But in all those case, I am aware and accepting of the outside agents that can and would react and retribute.

I don't believe in God. I do not fear retribution from a source that I do not believe exist.
That's the direction that reasoning goes.

I am very certain that you have thought that go in exactly the same way. You don't treat cows are holy beings, because you don't believe in Hinduism. You don't avoid stepping on cracks in the pavement because you don't believe in monsters that want to eat your mother if you do.
Or do you seriously and deliberately deny the existence of mother-eating monsters, because you want to step on cracks, even when your conscience tells you it is wrong?

That is the second part of that position: your conscience doesn't tell you that stepping on cracks in wrong... or does it?
In very much the same way, my conscience doesn't act up on a lot of stuff that your religion tries to tell me is "sinful". There even are a few instances where my conscience does tell me that your religious demands are "wrong".

So, no, what you claimed is not the "real reason" for believing in no God.
I cannot and will not speak for anyone but me: my personal reason to be an atheist is because the existence of any form of "deity" is either irrelevant or self-contradicting.
Especially religions like Christianity simply don't make any sense to me.

Even without religion you're aware that stealing and lying are wrong and immoral.

and without any kind of judgement, you have no reason to worry about a lie you don't feel will ever be found out by a human. and that's part of the "comfort" of Atheism, is that you will take your lies to the grave with you and nobody will ever know and so there will never be consequence.

as for not understanding Christianity? Do you want to understand it?

because right now, not understanding?
what the bible says in regards to this is rather bleak.

1 Corinthians 1

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

2 Corinthians 4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But ultimately first you have to know your are a sinner and that there is judgement for sin, before you can see your need of a savior.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Remember where you are.

Ditto.

This is the "evolution/creation" sub-forum. Stick to the topic or leave. I'm not the one that keeps bringing in irrelevant religion.

[And stop making claims about me. YOU DON'T KNOW ME. (And you never will.) I don't care about your religion. I didn't come here to discuss it. I'm here for the science/pseudoscience discussion.]

 

[Gene2memE]

Even without religion you're aware that stealing and lying are wrong and immoral.

and without any kind of and that's part of the "comfort" of Atheism, is that you will take your lies to the grave with you and nobody will ever know and so there will never be consequence. judgement, you have no reason to worry about a lie you don't feel will ever be found out by a human.

That's simply false.

I don't want people to deceive me. And I have both empathy and sympathy. Therefore, I know that there are negative consequences to lying. Even to lies that aren't detected/caught.

You can also apply the veil of ignorance test, and also understand that there are consequences to lying.

But ultimately first you have to know your are a sinner and that there is judgement for sin, before you can see your need of a savior.

This is the claim. But, nothing I've seen convinces me of the existence of 'sin', except as a concept created inside human minds.

 

[SkyWriting]

Your wonky foot works because you dont have to chase down a gazelle.
Your good enough foot is fine for walking on a carpeted floor of an office complex.
It works well on the flat and even floor of a grocery store.
You can even go cross country for a short while, with shoes.
But try to walk from one water hole to the next, on the open savanna, barefoot.
Somehow I think only the lions will be happy

It's not unusual for people to not understand imperfections.
My wife never walked after age eight. So what was the point of keeping her alive
if she couldn't walk the plains? One of my grandkids still is unable to talk at that age due to Autism. What's the point? Feed for the lions?

 

[Jamdoc]

It's not unusual for people to not understand imperfections.
My wife never walked after age eight. So what was the point of keeping her alive
if she couldn't walk the plains? One of my grandkids still is unable to talk at that age due to Autism. What's the point? Feed for the lions?

When life is nothing but an accident life itself has no value, so basically.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When life is nothing but an accident life itself has no value, so basically.

Just because there was no designer does not mean that life is an accident and even if that was correct life would still have value.

Why do you believe this? Has someone been telling you lies? You should not believe the lies that some Christians make about atheists.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Either way we've kinda gone on a tangent here.

Yep. Now let's go back to something on-topic for the forum.

Where I think the line for the biblical term "kind" is drawn is at the family taxonomic level rather than the species or even genus.

"Kind" isn't a scientifically definable taxonomic designation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Just because there was no designer does not mean that life is an accident and even if that was correct life would still have value.

Why do you believe this? Has someone been telling you lies? You should not believe the lies that some Christians make about atheists.

It is evident in the behavior of people. See socialist countries one of the first acts is to restrict religion and following up.. massive purges. 10's of millions in the Soviet Union and China.
and in our secular country... abortion.
Devalue life and if it's an inconvenience.. just kill it in the womb seems to be the rationale.
Plus if you believe that you just cease to exist when you die, then nothing you do really matters does it? Because from your point of view you'll be totally unaware of anything after death, and you can apply the same thought process to other people. nothing about them matters because they cease to exist when they die, so.. their life doesn't mean much to you.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yep. Now let's go back to something on-topic for the forum.



"Kind" isn't a scientifically definable taxonomic designation.

No, it's not and that's why what the bible means by using that word is of paramount importance when determining if something like evolution is compatible with the bible in any sense.
If you define a "kind" as a synonym for "species" then each species is individually created leaving 0 room for an evolutionary process. Hence you come to a complete impasse between science and the bible.

But if "kind" refers to an taxonomic family rather than species, there IS room for evolution.
and hybridization of closely related animals points to this being the case.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is evident in the behavior of people. See socialist countries one of the first acts is to restrict religion and following up.. massive purges. 10's of millions in the Soviet Union and China.
and in our secular country... abortion.
Devalue life and if it's an inconvenience.. just kill it in the womb seems to be the rationale.
Plus if you believe that you just cease to exist when you die, then nothing you do really matters does it? Because from your point of view you'll be totally unaware of anything after death, and you can apply the same thought process to other people. nothing about them matters because they cease to exist when they die, so.. their life doesn't mean much to you.

I could make the same bad arguments against Christianity. I might even do a better job. Instead of attacking you should be trying to learn.