How do Calvinists grapple with the doctrine of election?

[samanjm]

I know this is a terribly vague question, but I wanted to include as many people as possible. In my understanding, whether you're a 4 or 5 point calvinist or whatever, you have to have the doctrine of God's election somewhere in your theology, right? That is to say, God chooses to save some people and damn others, or let others fall into damnation if you don't like the phrasing. And you need to have a true conversion experience in order to have at least some grounds to believe you are of the elect. And you need to be able to see a visible change in your heart that the holy spirit has sanctified you. But even so, only time will tell if you are holy enough to perservere in your faith.
My question is, then: How do you handle the anxiety of your possible damnation?
How do you make sure you are not self-righteous? What signs do you have to show you that you are on the right path?

And how do you treat other people, who are possibly dammed? Every christian confession needs to deal with thine neighbors for sure, and every denomination has its own mechanism for it. But if, for example, preaching the Gospel has no effect...in fact, even if it does, how do you approach those that clearly haven't been lucky enough, yet?

Would you, for example, have any advice for someone who's in a bad place, Christian or not, except for "look for a conversion experience and think really hard"? And what do YOU do when you're feeling depressed?

I realy hope I do not sound condescending here, there are parts of this doctrine I can really relate to, there is certain humility to it, but there are other parts where I can't even imagine how can people live with this. And still, I don't see large numbers of calvinists or reformed people commiting group suicide because they find their faith unbearable. So this may sound really stupid to some of you, but I actually find it pretty admirable. You're carrying a huge burden on your shoulders, and some of the sermons I've read, like "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards don't seem to make it any more bearable.

I don't believe resignation to God's will itself helps much, it is a desired result, but it must be hard sometimes, I imagine. And I don't think clinging to good works is the real solution either. At least for me, it wouldn't be enough to cope.

So, my questions are: How do you handle this anxiety, what do you do to get over it, and how do you help other people, christians or not, to work it out? What do pastors do when a member of the church approaches them about it?

I know it's a tough question, and I don't expect an overarching answer, but please tell me if you have any idea. I find it...mind-boggling.

God bless you

 

[St_Worm2]

...only time will tell if you are holy enough to persevere in your faith.

Hi Samanjm, what does it mean to be "holy enough"? How can we become "holy enough" to merit salvation apart from Christ

Thanks!

--David

 

[samanjm]

Hi Samanjm, what does it mean to be "holy enough"? How can we become "holy enough" to merit salvation apart from Christ

Thanks!

--David

Well, that depends on what you subscribe to, really. But from my understanding, some people believe that you need to prove your holiness to yourself and others in order to be accepted as a Christian. I do agree that good works come together with the faith in Christ, you don't believe in Him if you don't act on it, that's almost self-evident to me...I wouldn't say, though, that I can judge the salvation of another person based on the amount of good they do. So, personally, I think that this is a wrong question to ask. On the one hand, you can never be holy enough, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be the only thing that matters...does this qualify as an answer to you?

What do you consider the most important thing about being a Christian, I wonder?

 

[St_Worm2]

How do Calvinists grapple with the doctrine of election?

I guess I should have tried to answer your opening question first. How to we grapple with the doctrine of Divine election? Unlike many in the church today, we start by recognizing that it exists, and we certainly believe that the Lord didn't simply pay lip service to a subject that we can probably find, directly or implied, on half of the pages of the Holy Writ.

 

[samanjm]

I guess I should have tried to answer your opening question first. How to we grapple with the doctrine of Divine election? Unlike many in the church today, we start by recognizing that it exists, and we certainly believe that the Lord didn't simply pay lip service to a subject that we can probably find, directly or implied, on half of the pages of the Holy Writ.

Aha, I see. Well, recognising a bible doctrine as a real thing is something all Christians should do, for sure. But it's not like the other denominations don't recognise that the word "elect" is there, they just don't see the split as sharply, I think. Predestined from the beginning of time. What trips me up is the part of the election doctrine that says it's not really up to you. I mean, of course God causes it, he created us, he caused everything as far as I'm concened. Grace is a real thing. BUT my question is, how do you get around the fact that maybe you're simply on the other side? Does reading this forum qualify as a good sign? What sets apart a real Christian from a nominal Christian? How do I know I'm a true Christian? How do you know your faith is true?

How do you work out these kind of questions inside yourself?

 

[St_Worm2]

Well, that depends on what you subscribe to, really. But from my understanding, some people believe that you need to prove your holiness to yourself and others in order to be accepted as a Christian. I do agree that good works come together with the faith in Christ, you don't believe in Him if you don't act on it, that's almost self-evident to me...I wouldn't say, though, that I can judge the salvation of another person based on the amount of good they do. So, personally, I think that this is a wrong question to ask. On the one hand, you can never be holy enough, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be the only thing that matters...does this qualify as an answer to you?

Hi again Samanjm, I don't disagree that good works/holy living, etc., are the RESULT/FRUIT of being saved, but these things that "accompany" salvation, the things we do as a result of being saved, cannot save us (nor can they keep us saved). Rather, we are saved by grace, God's gracious choice to save us being merited/based entirely upon the things that His Son did for us, His life, His death on the Cross, and His Resurrection. He is our innocence, our righteousness, and the atonement for our sins. (and while we are the ones who do the believing, that's only possible for us because of the "gift" of saving faith that God gives to those who are His .. Ephesians 2:8).

We are either saved graciously by God's unmerited favor through faith, or we are saved by what we do. We cannot be saved by both grace AND our works .. e.g. Romans 11:6.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Radagast]

But even so, only time will tell if you are holy enough to perservere in your faith.

That's the 5th point of Calvinism: every genuine believer perseveres.

There's a lot less anxiety there then with "did I work hard enough to satisfy God" theology.

And Calvinism puts the emphasis on what God has done, not on "my conversion experience."

How do you handle this anxiety

There is none. Philippians 1:6: being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[samanjm]

That's the 5th point of Calvinism: every genuine believer perseveres.

Exactly!!!

There's a lot less anxiety there then with "did I work hard enough to satisfy God" theology.

There is none.

I see!! I never thought about that....but then, you still don't know your faith WILL perservere until the Judgment day, isn't it? Christ, after all, promised salvations to those who will perservere, not those who won't. Isn't that a possible pitfall?

And Calvinism puts the emphasis on what God has done, not on "my conversion experience."

Yes, I think that should be the focus of every denomination, if they want to call themselves the Church. But as a matter of fact, in the past, if you asked a Calvinist pastor "How can I be assured of my faith?", he would ask you "Well, did you convert?" rather than "Were you baptised?". It was a shift away from sacraments towards one's experience, there can be no doubt about that. If there is any way to gain at least some assurance you're on the right track, it's the conversion and righteousness. According to calvinist doctrine, as I understand it. Am I wrong?

 

[St_Worm2]

...my question is, how do you get around the fact that maybe you're simply on the other side? Does reading this forum qualify as a good sign? What sets apart a real Christian from a nominal Christian? How do I know I'm a true Christian? How do you know your faith is true? How do you work out these kind of questions inside yourself?

We, of course, have the inner witness of the Spirit that helps us know that we are His, but unlike God, we don't know our hearts, but there is outward evidence that can help us know (which helps us fulfill the command we are given in 2 Corinthians 13:5, etc.).

First and foremost our salvation (or lack thereof) can be seen in what we do (or do not do), what we say, and what (and how) we think. It can perhaps be seen even more clearly in how what we do/say/think has changed since our pre-Christian days (how we spend our time now, who we spend it with, what things are most important to us, etc.).

Along these same lines, St. James tells us that there are two kinds of faith, a lively one that saves (and shows itself in the good works/holy living it produces), and a dead faith that produces nothing, save perhaps a "claim" that one has become a Christian. That is, in fact, why he told us that we are "justified" by what we do, not only because we "claim" to have faith (he even points out that demons have faith, just not the kind of faith that saves, even though they, at least, "shudder" at the thought of Him ).

--David

 

[samanjm]

First and foremost our salvation (or lack thereof) can be seen in what we do (or do not do), what we say, and what (and how) we think. It can perhaps be seen even more clearly in how what we do/say/think has changed since our pre-Christian days (how we spend our time now, who we spend it with, what things are most important to us, etc.).

Yes! That's what I meant by "true conversion experience" and when I said "holy enough", I meant the change (from before and after the conversion) is big enough.
You could always say, I suppose "if you have to ask, there clearly is no real change in your life". But don't forget there are people who are pathologically self-conscious and who genuinely can't see a change in their life that would be worth noticing, no matter how big or small it would be. I can imagine someone like that, and I would have a really hard time to be able to tell this objectivelly about myself no matter how much I look into my soul...I would be, in fact I am prone to believe that there really is not much, if anything, I can point to in my life and say "this clearly is the holy spirit working in me".
Now, that is the kind of anxiety I am talking about. And whether election is biblical or not, we should have something to say to the people with such worries, except for "Well, tough luck, my friend. You're going to hell."

I'm not implying, of course, that anybody would say that, Rather I'm trying to figure out what to say to such a person, if there is anything to say, and what to do when you start to have such doubts yourself.

So, in short: What to do when in doubt? There HAS to be something one can do, even if it doesn't give you perfect assurance. Surely you wouldn't say "do something holy, thatll make you feel better".

 

[St_Worm2]

Christ, after all, promised salvation to those who will persevere, not those who won't. Isn't that a possible pitfall?

Saints are the chosen of God, predestined to adoption as God's children from before the foundation of the world. We're the ones who are drawn and given to Christ by His Father as His bride .. John 6:44/John 6:37-40.

IOW, we ARE the ones who persevere in the faith (because God makes sure that we do) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13, Hebrews 7:25.

In Christ,
David
p.s. - when we come to saving faith in Christ, we receive "eternal" life (not probationary or conditional life), and that from the moment we first believe

John 5
24 He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​

 

[samanjm]

David:
Now I can see where you've got your assurance of perservering.

 

[St_Worm2]

David:
Now I can see where you've got your assurance of perservering.

Oh, what I've said above only touches the surface of it actually That said, we do need to "test" ourselves to make sure that we know God and are, therefore, really and truly in the faith, because if we aren't, we're going to find ourselves in the same boat (or pickle) that those in Matthew 7:22-23 found themselves in

 

[samanjm]

Oh, what I've said above only touches the surface of it actually That said, we do need to "test" ourselves to make sure that we know God and are, therefore, really and truly in the faith, because if we aren't, we're going to find ourselves in the same boat (or pickle) that those in Matthew 7:22-23 found themselves in

Oh yes, I know I know. You have reminded me of the beauty of the Gospel again. God bless you.

 

[St_Worm2]

So, in short: What to do when in doubt? There HAS to be something one can do, even if it doesn't give you perfect assurance. Surely you wouldn't say "do something holy, thatll make you feel better".

Hi Samanjm, if someone "knows" that they are saved (demonstrates the inward and outward evidence of someone who has faith), but then begins to doubt that they really are, there can be several reasons for that. First and foremost, walking apart from the HS in any moment of our lives can be behind it, in our busyness, daily frustrations, or in our anxieties, etc. All of these things can play a big role

These kinds of things keep us away from the quality time we need to spend with Him and in His word, from prayer, fellowship and witnessing, you know, from all the basic spiritual disciplines that keep us strong in the faith.

Then there's Satan, of course, who hates us and would like to see harm come to us simply because we belong to God now.

There's also something that I had to battle awhile back (and still do occasionally ), lack of trust in God, and/or in the assurance that what He says/promises us is actually true. I remember being attacked by Satan several years ago, and he was doing a pretty good job of convincing me that I was either a lousy Christian, and/or a useless Christian, or I wasn't really even a Christian at all.

The thing is, whether Satan is behind these kind of thoughts or not, if you know you are saved, and you know how much God loves you (that He chose to die rather than live w/o you), then it's insulting to Him to do anything less that take Him at His word.

So what do you do when the doubts come? Rest in the knowledge of who He is, what you know about Him, and how much you know that He loves you, no matter how it feels. And most of all, decide that you're going to have faith/trust Him at His word (you know, whenever He says things like He does in John 5:24, for instance). It's hard at first, but many times we end up doubting our faith because we are actually doubting Him, which is really silly if you think about it

If Satan is attacking, which is usually pretty evident in our thought lives, then begin to reject those lousy thoughts, take them "captive", and give them over to the Lord to deal with .. 2 Corinthians 10:5. My thought life used to be so bad that I would reject those lousy thoughts out loud and take them captive for Him to deal with, again and again and again if necessary, until Satan would finally give up (for the time being anyway). I didn't realize it at the time, but I was actually obeying a Scriptural command by doing that .. see James 4:7-8; 1 Peter 5:8-11.

I'm sorry. This has gone on too long, and I really didn't talk further about the many ways that we can know we are His. I'll have to do that in my next post where I will try to write more concisely.

In Christ,
David
p.s. - while I'm thinking about it I should probably mention that my thought-life improved SLOWLY over the years until I finally began to permanently replace the garbage I had stored up there in my noggin with something FAR better, the word of God. More on the best practice of how to do that later too

 

[Radagast]

but then, you still don't know your faith WILL perservere until the Judgment day, isn't it?

Based on Scripture like the verse I quoted, Calvinism teaches that genuine faith will always persevere.

Let me quote this too:

What is your only comfort in life and in death? That I am not my own, but belong—body and soul, in life and in death—to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood, and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil. He also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven; in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.

Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.

 

[Halbhh]

I know this is a terribly vague question, but I wanted to include as many people as possible. In my understanding, whether you're a 4 or 5 point calvinist or whatever, you have to have the doctrine of God's election somewhere in your theology, right? That is to say, God chooses to save some people and damn others, or let others fall into damnation if you don't like the phrasing. And you need to have a true conversion experience in order to have at least some grounds to believe you are of the elect. And you need to be able to see a visible change in your heart that the holy spirit has sanctified you. But even so, only time will tell if you are holy enough to perservere in your faith.
My question is, then: How do you handle the anxiety of your possible damnation?
How do you make sure you are not self-righteous? What signs do you have to show you that you are on the right path?

And how do you treat other people, who are possibly dammed? Every christian confession needs to deal with thine neighbors for sure, and every denomination has its own mechanism for it. But if, for example, preaching the Gospel has no effect...in fact, even if it does, how do you approach those that clearly haven't been lucky enough, yet?

Would you, for example, have any advice for someone who's in a bad place, Christian or not, except for "look for a conversion experience and think really hard"? And what do YOU do when you're feeling depressed?

I realy hope I do not sound condescending here, there are parts of this doctrine I can really relate to, there is certain humility to it, but there are other parts where I can't even imagine how can people live with this. And still, I don't see large numbers of calvinists or reformed people commiting group suicide because they find their faith unbearable. So this may sound really stupid to some of you, but I actually find it pretty admirable. You're carrying a huge burden on your shoulders, and some of the sermons I've read, like "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards don't seem to make it any more bearable.

I don't believe resignation to God's will itself helps much, it is a desired result, but it must be hard sometimes, I imagine. And I don't think clinging to good works is the real solution either. At least for me, it wouldn't be enough to cope.

So, my questions are: How do you handle this anxiety, what do you do to get over it, and how do you help other people, christians or not, to work it out? What do pastors do when a member of the church approaches them about it?

I know it's a tough question, and I don't expect an overarching answer, but please tell me if you have any idea. I find it...mind-boggling.

God bless you

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."

I think Peter tells us something key to learn more about election before one is saved. It involves whether we are willing to be as He requires of us.

I think we are all born able to be elect initially, from God, but many go away from Him, and never return. He planned for human salvation since the beginning.

 

[bbbbbbb]

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."

I think Peter tells us something key to learn more about election before one is saved. It involves whether we are willing to be as He requires of us.

I think we are all born able to be elect initially, from God, but many go away from Him, and never return. He planned for human salvation since the beginning.

Do you mean that God planned to save every individual on planet Earth since the beginning? If so, why didn't He do that?

 

[Halbhh]

Do you mean that God planned to save every individual on planet Earth since the beginning? If so, why didn't He do that?

My view is he planned a way for salvation, available to all, but you have to chose to come to the light at some point. Its mutual.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My view is he planned a way for salvation, available to all, but you have to chose to come to the light at some point. Its mutual.

I see. How do you define your understanding of synergism?