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I respectfully disagree.We must remember, or perhaps learn, that the Book of Jonah is not to be read as a literal history. It is actually a sort of extended parable written to address a serious injustice in Israel in the decades just following the exile in Babylon.
I respectfully disagree.
Please do - respectfully of course.I respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement. I can explain if you wish.
A Babylonian king destroyed Nineveh, not God. Nineveh had taken by kingdoms by force and was taken by force. People of the towns of northern Israel were taken by the Assyrians into captivity. They lost their culture after deportation. Assyrian iron arrowheads were found at Tel Hazor in northern Israel.Speaking eternally, we don't have any idea how many of them were saved, if any. All your argument pertains to God not yet destroying a nation. About a hundred years later, He did destroy that nation for their sin anyway.
I think you have a category fail here. The sparing of a nation doesn't equate with individual salvation. On that basis, I'd say your entire argument is off the mark and not worth consideration.
Besides, all a Calvinist would have to say is God used His promise in Jeremiah to bring about the repentance of those in Nineveh who were already destined for salvation. You really wouldn't have any argument against that other than disagreement with His method in doing so.
By the way - I had a Jack Russel Terrier for many years when I lived out in the country on the farm.
What a little dynamo she was. Small furry critters and snakes lived in constant fear of her.
Please do - respectfully of course.
It was a profound shock to the people of Judah when the City of Jerusalem fell to the army of the Babylonians in the early years of the 6th century BCE. This city had not been conquered by an invading power since 1000 BCE, when David himself had taken it from the Jebusites to make it the capital of his newly unified country. When Solomon erected the Temple in Jerusalem, the people began to think that this holy city now lived under the protection of its indwelling deity. That idea was shattered with the city's fall in 596. The subsequent relocation of the Jewish people into a Babylonian exile only continued the shock and increased the despair.
The depth and pain of these reactions was located in the firm belief that somehow the Jews were God's chosen and favored people. Yet the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of the people seemed a strange way for the "chosen people" to be treated by their God. Life has to be endured as it comes, however, and so the Jews lived apart from their holy city and their sacred soil for several generations. Finally, the Persians defeated the Babylonians and allowed the descendants of the exiled Jews to return and resettle their native land. Jewish pilgrims returned in smaller and larger groups over the next two centuries.
The Jews dealt with this trauma in their history by trying to explain why God had allowed the defeat and exile of the chosen people. All of their understanding of God drove them to find some rationality in this experience. This was especially true when a sufficient number had returned to allow them finally to begin to rebuild their country. They wanted to make sure that God's wrath would not descend on them again. They needed to know how they had offended God so that this behavior would never be repeated. Their first explanation was emotionally unsatisfying for it placed blame for unfaithfulness on their own ancestors and dishonored their parents, in direct violation of the Ten Commandments. Then they hit on what seemed a better idea. Alien influences were to blame, they said, "Some of our weaker ancestors had married foreign partners. These Gentile elements then brought corruption to our nation by polluting the true faith and the racial purity of God's people." The way to avoid a future disaster thus seemed clear. They must purge the nation of its non-Jewish elements by banishing them from the land. The half-breed children of these unholy unions must also go. The new land of the Jews must be for Jews only. So the law was decreed and vigilante squads were loosed on the people with instructions to check blood lines to the tenth generation in order to guarantee the racial purity of the newly established Jewish state. The true worship of a pure Jewish people was the only way to secure God's blessing. The Jewish state thus entered a period of internal violence.
It was because of the atmosphere produced by this mentality that an unknown Jewish person, presumably a man since women were not taught to write at this time, went to his home to devise a means of challenging these prevailing attitudes. He could not attack them openly in a public, political way, for that would be interpreted as running the risk of new defeat and a new exile. He had to confront these attitudes obliquely until their destructiveness was made clear. He had to find a way to hold up a mirror and to force the ruling authorities to look directly into it. Taking his quill in hand he decided to write a fanciful story filled with the exaggeration of a world of make believe, but so enchanting that everyone would want to hear it. In the privacy of his home, he did just that. When he had finished, a text of this story appeared suddenly and anonymously in Jerusalem at the height of the ethnic cleansing. The town crier gathered some people around him in a public square and this is the story he read.
Once upon a time there was a prophet in Israel whose name was Jonah. God called to Jonah and told him that he must go to preach to the people of Nineveh. "Nineveh," said Jonah, "you must be kidding. That is an unclean Gentile city. Why would you want me to do something that weird?" God was adamant, however, and God's message was clear, so Jonah had to respond. He did so in the classic way that people do when they are told by an authority figure to do something they really do not want to do, that is, Jonah said "Yes" but he meant "No" since he had no intention of obeying. Jonah, however, went through all the motions. He went to his home, packed a suitcase, went down to the port and booked passage on a boat, but to Tarshish and not to Nineveh. One does not go by sea to Nineveh. If caught, he reasoned, he could claim that he had misunderstood and by this time, God surely would have had second thoughts. All went well as Jonah boarded, unpacked his suitcase in his stateroom, put on his Bermuda shorts, got a good book and positioned himself topside in a deck chair as the ship pulled out into the Mediterranean Sea. The trip was uneventful until a dark cloud in the sky seemed to be shadowing the boat. Aware of this dark presence, the captain tried to escape it by turning the boat both to the right and to the left, but the cloud responded by turning in concert with the boat. While the rest of the sky was clear and blue, this cloud got darker and darker and from within it came flashes of lightning, the roar of thunder and finally rain. So strange was this phenomenon that the captain drew the obvious conclusion, "Someone up there does not like someone down here." In what he regarded as a scientific fashion, he sought to identify the culprit. He drew straws and the lot fell on Jonah. "What is this that you have done, Jonah?" "Well, God did tell me to go preach to the Ninevites, but I knew that God did not really care for the Ninevites, so I booked passage on this boat." The captain, who did not care for Ninevites either, understood and thought he would ride out the storm until a bolt of lightning struck near and a wave from the sea swept over the boat, hurling Jonah's deck chair from one end of the ship to the other. That was when the captain weighed his own security against Jonah's decision and decided that Jonah had to go. So, with the help of three deck hands, Jonah was seized by his limbs and on the count of three they heaved him overboard.
Jonah never hit the sea. God had created a great fish (the word whale never occurs in this story) that had been swimming in tandem with this boat waiting for its moment in the drama. Jonah fell into its open jaws, which closed over him, and Jonah found himself living in the belly of this great fish. Jonah had amazing adaptive qualities, so he settled down to make his new home comfortable by rearranging the furniture and hanging the curtains. For three days and nights, Jonah lived in this new, but somewhat confining, Mediterranean condominium until even the great fish got tired of Jonah (I think he smoked) and so, with a great primeval belch, the fish threw up Jonah, who tumbled head over heels onto a conveniently located sandbar. Jonah was clearing his head and taking in his new situation, when he heard a voice saying, "Jonah how would you like to preach to the people of Nineveh?" "Okay, God," he said, "You win. I'll go."
In one verse Jonah was in Nineveh, but still convinced that God was making a mistake, so he opted for a new form of resistance. In Frank Sinatra fashion, he concluded, "I'll do it, but I'll do it my way! I'll preach to the Ninevites, but I'll do it by muttering under my breath and only on the back streets and alley ways of the city." Around the city he went saying: "God says to repent. Repent and turn to God," hoping no one would hear. To his amazement everyone heard. Crowds gathered from every house and condominium confessing their sins, tearing their clothes in repentance and begging for God's mercy. Jonah was the most successful evangelist in the history of the world. Jerry Falwell would have eaten his heart out for this kind of response.
Jonah, however, was angry. Storming out of town, he said: "I knew this would happen, God. That is why I did not want to come. These wretched people deserve punishment. I know you, God! I know you will forgive! Why does your love not stop at the boundary of my love?"
Jonah found a spot outside the city where he sat and sulked. The sounds of the revival could be heard as "Sweet Hour of Prayer" was being sung by the penitents. God was strangely silent and night fell. When Jonah awoke, a giant plant had grown up near his head. During the day Jonah found protection from the desert sun in its foliage and sanctuary from the biting desert wind in its trunk. That night God created a worm that ate the giant tree, leaving only a small pile of sawdust. When Jonah awoke, he was distraught at the loss of his beloved tree. He wept, mourned and felt the depth of bereavement. Finally, God broke the divine silence and said, "Jonah, how is it that you can have such passionate feelings about this tree and yet no compassion for the 120,000 people of Nineveh, to say nothing of their cattle?"
The Book of Jonah ends there. Imagine that story being read on the streets of Jerusalem while ethnic cleansing was taking place in the city. As the story unfolded, the people roared at the depth of Jonah's bigotry until they realized that Jonah was a fictional portrayal of themselves.
The Book of Jonah remains in the Bible to this day to counter human attempts to say that the love of God is limited to the limits of my love or my religion's ability to love. There are no boundaries on the love of God. That is the message of Jonah. In God there are no distinctions between Jew and Gentile, male and female, black and white, gay and straight, left handed and right handed. God's invitation is "Come unto me, all ye" not "some of ye." We are to come "just as we are, without one plea." How dare Popes or Archbishops of Canterbury or religious institutions anywhere define anyone as beyond the limits of God's embracing love! When any ecclesiastical leader or religious tradition excludes or diminishes any child of God for the sake of "unity" or by defining God's love as limited, the Book of Jonah stands as biblical judgment on that leader and those attitudes.
~~~ John Shelby Spong
Well, lessons or spiritual truths can be made from just one verse in the Bible. You should know this just by going to church or by watching video sermons online.
Anyways, in Matthew 12:41, Jesus pointed us to Jonah 3. Jesus's lesson was one of repentance; And it was not the Calvinistic version of it. There was no enabling going on for a person to repent happening in Jonah 3. We see Jonah preach Judgment coming upon the city of Nineveh and then the king of the Ninevites telling his people to:
(a) Cry out to God (repent).
(b) Turn from their evil and wicked ways (fruits of repentance).
When God had seen the Ninevites turn from their wicked sinful ways, the Lord then did not bring Judgment upon them like He said He was going to do. In the false world of Calvinism: If God decrees some to be saved and others to not be saved, then God would not change His mind on executing wrath or judgment upon the wicked. If they are damned according to Calvinism, there is nothing to do to stop His judgment or wrath that is to come. If they were His elect (who are saved), then they should have never been in any danger of Judgment. God is not into pretending to scare us.
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God never changed His mind. See post #4. He kept a promise, which was a conditional expression.
Jeremiah 18:7-8 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Think of it as basic computer syntax, such as an IF...THEN...ELSE statement.
IF repentance == true
THEN show mercy
ELSE execute judgment
You are showing you don't even understand your own argument.
Just a quick thought --
"God in heaven" knows humans' hearts & minds, and so knows how they would react in various contexts... and so can accurately predict & forecast human behavior. Hence, Daniel & Revelations, transmitted to & received by the Prophets Daniel & John 2600-2000 years ago, has accurately & precisely described human history over the past two-and-a-half millennia.
Humans do not "surprise" The LORD with "unexpected behavior".
The LORD would have known, in advance, that Jonah could be induced to preach to the Ninevites; and that, thereby, the Ninevites could be induced to repent. The LORD sent Jonah, directly, via "outpouring of Holy Spirit". Then, Jonah got the Ninevites to repent. Ipso facto, The LORD, directly & indirectly, exercised sufficient influence in human affairs so as to wield effective sovereignty throughout the episode.
The LORD sent Jonah. The LORD "granted repentance" through him. That repentance did not occur without (indirect) Divine Influence.
The men of ninevah repented at the words of Jonah
Yet ONE GREATER than Jonah has come
The story of Jonah was just a shadow and a picture pointing to the preaching of CHRIST unto repentence for the salvation of all who believe
I think it does fit "Calvanism" if Calvanism is actually a thing. Its a label put on a concept.But this promise does not fit Calvinism. God decrees who is saved and not saved. If God declared that the Ninevites were His elect who are saved, then there should have never been any kind of Judgment against them. So this promise works for the Synergist and not for the Calvinist. The Calvinist believes God saves a select few people. It sure sounds like the Ninevties were saved because God turned away His wrath. God's elect should have never been in any kind of danger from God's wrath or judgment because they are His chosen few that He hand picked to have grace. The Elect are chosen since the foundation of the world. So no harm should have technically came upon these Ninevites if Calvinism is true.
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I think it does fit "Calvanism" if Calvanism is actually a thing. Its a label put on a concept.
The story of Jonah you are straining the gnat of your own perception and swallowing the camel which is that it was a teaching to Jonah, and to future generations. God certainly knew what would happen and many of ninevah were known to god and saved from their evil ways. The fact that God deals with man on his level often does not negate the fact that God knows the beginning and the end and has destiny stored up for when the times reach their fulfillment.
The human mind I dont think easily grasps certain realities or possibilities like the fact that choice and predestination walk hand in hand without contradiction. Both are true simultaneously, making this Calvanism you refer to the ultimate reality behind your choices.
To speculate that God used his threat to Ninevah as a scare tactic is purely specculation based on your own predisposition and knowledge. The only thing you can think of is that it must have just been a scare tactic. Truth be told, your reasons for denying calvanistic ideas based on Jonah are purely speculative and not based in knowledge.
2 Samuel 24:15-16 and then consider how God sent the destroying Angel of His who destroyed 70,000 people and the told the Angel to stop destroying.God threatened the city of Nineveh with judgment.
1 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:1-4).
God changed His mind and He did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He had seen that they turned from their evil and wicked ways.
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3:10).
While many verses refute Calvinism, these 5 verses above in Jonah 3 is the achilles heel to Calvinism. This is a major story in the Bible! Yet, Calvinists do not seem to realize what this story really says here. I am wondering: How do Calvinists explain these verses in the "Story of Jonah"
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Jeremiah 18:7-8 "If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it."
I've pretty much read everything you've said in this thread. It seems to me that your Zeal to undermine Calvinism has driven you to say some pretty dumb things.
There's no mystery here at all.
The story makes perfect sense in light of God's promise to forgive any repentance whether it be national or individual.
Was God dishonest when He told David what would happen if he kept to the same course he was on?
"Then David said, "Will the men of Keliah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?" And the Lord said, "They will surrender you." Then David and his men about six hundred, arose and departed Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the pursuit.." 1 Samuel 23:12,13
God knows possibilities just as clearly as He knows actualities.
This manner of stating what will happen if people don't repent is hardly unique to this special story you have "discovered".
The Lord talks this way all the time. Your problem is with God and how He says things not with John Calvin or any other man.
Calvinists believe (quite correctly) that all men, including the elect, are enemies of God and "children of wrath" up until they repent and exercise saving faith unto justification.
Calvinists don't believe that election, in and of itself, saves anyone.
If you are going to attack Calvinists, you should at least become knowledgeable concerning their beliefs first.
Through the preaching of His prophets, God threatens all sinners with wrath and judgment. That includes the elect to whom He will eventually extend grace.
If you want to call God a liar, go ahead on.
Again - your problem is with God and not with Calvinists.
By the way - we have no idea. But we might well see every Ninevite who was involved in that particular situation in Heaven.
Just like I was when I was threatened with damnation if I didn't change my beliefs and ways - the Ninevites may well be among the elect.
Maybe the names of the Ninevites were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world just like all the rest of the elect.
Right ... and we do see that with Paul, the Philippian jailer and those who will be saved under the preaching of the 144,000 in the Book of revelation?
That's not the way any person who believes in election preaches the gospel. It wasn't for Jesus, Paul, me, or John Calvin.
Where are you getting these really silly things to say?
Have you even spoken with a Calvinist or read any of their literature concerning their evangelistic methods?
Nonsense.
Festus told Paul that his great learning must have driven him mad.
Your great hatred for Calvinists has apparently done the same with you.
It appears that you feel that you have uncovered some great argument against Calvinism from the story of Jonah and Nineveh.
Although I'm not a 5-point Calvinist myself, I don't mind defending many of the beliefs which I share with them (and Jesus and Paul). I've done it with a great many anti Calvinists who have had better arguments against Calvinism than you have even considered.
Besides that - this anti Calvinist ground has been tilled so many times in this forum that it has become tedious.
If you have a question about what Calvinists believe and teach, by all means ask and learn. But don't talk about teachings you aren't even up to speed on.
But this is not consistent with how Calvinists say how God force saves some (When He has the power to save them all) and how He enables men so as to repent.
Jeremiah and the story of Jonah are telling you Syngerism and not Calvinism.
Calvinism:
God shows mercy.
God grantes repentance by His choice.
No possible chance for judgment because they are the Elect who are forever saved.
Synergism:
IF repentance == true
THEN show mercy
ELSE execute judgment.
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The point was you are still going on and on about God changing His mind when that didn't happen.
You said:Scripture does tell us that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and that it is God who grants repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), and there is predestination at work as plainly laid out (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:3-14). Is your theology at odds with the scriptures so that it doesn't allow harmony with those passages?
2 Samuel 24:15-16 and then consider how God sent the destroying Angel of His who destroyed 70,000 people and the told the Angel to stop destroying.
No. We do see a clear change of mind by God in the story of Jonah. God communicates through Jonah that the Ninevite city was going to be destroyed soon and yet when the Ninevites repented, God changed His mind on the destruction He was going to bring upon them originally. Your denial of these facts in the story of Jonah does not change them.
Here we see you resorting to the standard most overused Calvinistic responses from Scripture that have been explained countless times by Synergists. What you need to do is explain the story of Jonah instead in view of Calvinism, my friend.
Anyways, John 6:44 is not talking about drawing the lost. Verse 45 says,
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45). So this is talking to the believer and not the unbeliever.
The Calvinistic interpretation on 2 Timothy 2:25 is refuted by Jesus in Matthew 12:41 and His reference to how the Ninevites repented in Jonah 3. Jesus says the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Why will they rise up against this generation if it was God who enables people to repent? This is why this thread exists. To show you that God did not force regenerate Ninevites to get them to repent. We clearly see it was the Message that changed the Ninevites' minds because it was the threat of judgment that made them repent. So 2 Timothy 2:25 is talking about giving the opportunity to repent by hearing the Message. There is no other verse that would back up how God enables men to repent. You just have one verse read out of context in view of the rest of the testimony of Scripture.
As for Romans 8:29-30: There is no guarantee that ALL the "called" are going to be justified. It is merely stating the order of things. Many are "called" but FEW are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Peter says make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).
As for being sealed in Ephesians 1:13-14: What is the condition of having this seal?
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).
So there is no Calvinism in these pieces of Scripture you have mentioned. In any event, please stick to the topic and explain the Story of Jonah in view of Calvinism. So far, you and other Calvinists here have not brought forth a believable or plausible argument.
Thank you for your time;
And may God bless you.
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And this is why I said you interpret wrong by using the narratives to inform you instead of the didactic. The didactic should inform you of the narratives. So the fact that even non-Calvinists are telling you that you have a poor argument should be telling.No. We do see a clear change of mind by God in the story of Jonah.
And this is why I said you interpret wrong by using the narratives to inform you instead of the didactic. The didactic should inform you of the narratives. So the fact that even non-Calvinists are telling you that you have a poor argument should be telling.
A little humility here would benefit you.
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