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The problem with that argument is that God is not changing His mind, rather He's keeping a promise.
Jeremiah 18:7-8 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
That doesn't say any of them were saved. There's no way to know.
This is just conjecture to fit your narrative. Like I said, your only argument is that you disagree with His method. That's all this is.
You said:Again, you are confusing the sparing of a nation with individual salvation. They aren't the same thing.
You said:Proves nothing. He says similar things about Sodom where there was no sparing of judgment.
You said:Again, conjecture. No proof, just opinion. Who are you to decide what means God uses is acceptable or not? You are not His judge.
That's a PROFOUND verse. God, here, desires to show mercy and grace, which defines WHO He is, and is repeated all throughout His Word.
I have never noticed that verse. Thank you for posting it.
It's reiterated in Jeremiah 26:3, and I know I've seen the same thought in another OT book at least one other time, but I haven't been able to locate it.
You assume that he really wants an answer. Most likely, whatever answer a Calvinist gives won't be in line with his misunderstanding of Calvinist, and they will just be wrong.It would have been much better to post this in this subforum. So far as I can tell, in this entire thread you have only gotten one answer from one Calvinist. If you post it there, only Calvinists are allowed to answer.
You assume that he really wants an answer. Most likely, whatever answer a Calvinist gives won't be in line with his misunderstanding of Calvinist, and they will just be wrong.
not a convincing argument in that it confuses God's prescriptive will for mankind with His decretive will for creation(which includes all actions and events in time).
...the god of Calvinism...
God changed His mind. This should not happen with the god of Calvinism who declares a certain select few people to be saved from the foundation of the world. No danger should have ever came near them if they were to be saved.
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I could, but it's within the guidelines here.As an administrator, are you able to move this thread? It seems like this is really posted in an inappropriate (i.e., unhelpful) place.
Jeremiah 18:7-8 "If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.".......the story makes no sense in the world of Calvinism. .......
Was God dishonest when He told David what would happen if he kept to the same course he was on?He was just using a false scare tactic (Which would be dishonest)....
Calvinists believe (quite correctly) that all men, including the elect, are enemies of God and "children of wrath" up until they repent and exercise saving faith unto justification.But this promise does not fit Calvinism. God decrees who is saved and not saved. If God declared that the Ninevites were His elect who are saved, then there should have never been any kind of Judgment against them.
Calvinists don't believe that election, in and of itself, saves anyone.if they were Elect, to threaten them would be wrong because they are the eternally saved (with no wrath or judgment upon them).
Through the preaching of His prophets, God threatens all sinners with wrath and judgment. That includes the elect to whom He will eventually extend grace............it is a lie to preach Judgment or Wrath if God never truly intended to bring Wrath or Judgment upon the Ninevites if they were His chosen and saved Elect.
Right ... and we do see that with Paul, the Philippian jailer and those who will be saved under the preaching of the 144,000 in the Book of revelation?.........we would see the whole city overnight change mysteriously by God involving their wicked ways. They would just drop in the middle of their sinful acts and fall to their knees and ask God for forgiveness. But this is not what we see. We do not see Ninevites about to do something sinful and then stop midway in doing something sinful and call unto God. That is what we need to see if Calvinism's version of repentance is actually true.
That's not the way any person who believes in election preaches the gospel. It wasn't for Jesus, Paul, me, or John Calvin.If Calvinism was true, the following scenario would have taken place in the story of Jonah.
Jonah comes to the city of Nineveh, and says to them, "I am here to tell you what God is going to do in you already. You are going to believe and repent and turn from your wicked ways."
There would be no mention of the Judgment. Just how they were going to believe.
God brings salvation to the Ninevites and opens their hearts.
Then the Ninevites repented and turned from their evil and wicked ways.
But that is not how things played out.
It was the reverse.
Nonsense.Either way the story makes no sense in the world of Calvinism.
Criminal investigators look for patterns in a crime scene to help them to solve the crime. This is no different with the BIble in seeking out the truth. If the god of Calvinism was true, then we would expect to see a pattern of behavior that would be consistent with that kind of behavior. The Story of Jonah is a major testimony against the god of Calvinism because it is not consistent with the behavior of the god of Calvinism as told to us by Calvinists. If God saves some people (When He has the power to save them all) and He can enable people so as to be able to repent, then we can expect to see this kind of behavior in the story of Jonah. However, on the contrary, we see the exact opposite. We see the Ninevites repent based on God threatening to destroy Nineveh. They were going to perish. But they repented and turned from their evil ways. When God seen that there was a change in the Ninevites (by their forsaking their evil ways), that is when He decided to not bring Judgment upon them. God changed His mind. This should not happen with the god of Calvinism who declares a certain select few people to be saved from the foundation of the world. No danger should have ever came near them if they were to be saved.
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We are not talking about some form of chastening here.
No. It says for God so loved the WORLD.
Jesus is not gloating at them and saying, "Ha, ha." You can't come to me because you are not regenerated. Verse 45 is not in reference to the lost (Which would be the context of verse 29).
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45).
They asked what they needed to do, and Jesus said for them to believe. He did not say, it was not up to them.
Well, lessons or spiritual truths can be made from just one verse in the Bible. You should know this just by going to church or by watching video sermons online.
Anyways, in Matthew 12:41, Jesus pointed us to Jonah 3. Jesus's lesson was one of repentance; And it was not the Calvinistic version of it. There was no enabling going on for a person to repent happening in Jonah 3. We see Jonah preach Judgment coming upon the city of Nineveh and then the king of the Ninevites telling his people to:
(a) Cry out to God (repent).
(b) Turn from their evil and wicked ways (fruits of repentance).
When God had seen the Ninevites turn from their wicked sinful ways, the Lord then did not bring Judgment upon them like He said He was going to do. In the false world of Calvinism: If God decrees some to be saved and others to not be saved, then God would not change His mind on executing wrath or judgment upon the wicked. If they are damned according to Calvinism, there is nothing to do to stop His judgment or wrath that is to come. If they were His elect (who are saved), then they should have never been in any danger of Judgment. God is not into pretending to scare us.
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And this is repentance.Jesus's lesson was one of repentance
The men of ninevah repented at the words of JonahGod threatened the city of Nineveh with judgment.
1 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:1-4).
God changed His mind and He did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He had seen that they turned from their evil and wicked ways.
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3:10).
While many verses refute Calvinism, these 5 verses above in Jonah 3 is the achilles heel to Calvinism. This is a major story in the Bible! Yet, Calvinists do not seem to realize what this story really says here. I am wondering: How do Calvinists explain these verses in the "Story of Jonah"?
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