How do anglicans view Satan?

PaladinValer

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Wayseer's view are not mainstream Anglicanism.

The Devil is a real celestial being of evil and hatred. He isn't a power to himself however. He's a fallen angel whose sole purpose is deceive and to draw people from goodness, divine order, and love. He will act as a prosecuter at the Final Judgment but himself will be condemned along with all else unworthy to experience heaven and whose suffering will be the worst of all.
 
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Adam Warlock

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Wayseer's view are not mainstream Anglicanism.

The Devil is a real celestial being of evil and hatred. He isn't a power to himself however. He's a fallen angel whose sole purpose is deceive and to draw people from goodness, divine order, and love. He will act as a prosecuter at the Final Judgment but himself will be condemned along with all else unworthy to experience heaven and whose suffering will be the worst of all.

Great post man :thumbsup:
 
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wayseer

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Wayseer's view are not mainstream Anglicanism.

The Devil is a real celestial being of evil and hatred. He isn't a power to himself however. He's a fallen angel whose sole purpose is deceive and to draw people from goodness, divine order, and love. He will act as a prosecuter at the Final Judgment but himself will be condemned along with all else unworthy to experience heaven and whose suffering will be the worst of all.

I know that 'mainstream' Christianity generally embraces the idea of a Creator God who created evil and hatred. I happen to see no evidence for such a theology and the concept that God created evil and suffering is sick. In fact, the whole idea stands in stark contrast to what Jesus taught.

But don't let me stop anyone playing in the sandpit of their own mind.
 
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ebia

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wayseer said:
I know that 'mainstream' Christianity generally embraces the idea of a Creator God who created evil and hatred. I happen to see no evidence for such a theology and the concept that God created evil and suffering is sick. In fact, the whole idea stands in stark contrast to what Jesus taught.

But don't let me stop anyone playing in the sandpit of their own mind.

PV didn't say God created evil and hatred.
 
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PaladinValer

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I know that 'mainstream' Christianity generally embraces the idea of a Creator God who created evil and hatred. I happen to see no evidence for such a theology and the concept that God created evil and suffering is sick. In fact, the whole idea stands in stark contrast to what Jesus taught.

But don't let me stop anyone playing in the sandpit of their own mind.

First, since Ebia said it for me already, I'll quote him:

PV didn't say God created evil and hatred.

This, and that, as someone who rejects Gnosticism and Manicheanism as the heresies that they are, I have no interest in any theology that entertains the notion of an evil deity or force. Evil is the absence of good, not a substance or essence in its own. In orthodox Christian theology, such a thing is foreign and condemned (and rightly so).

While it is true that in some Evangelical Protestant (and even moreso in Fundamentalist Protestant) circles there is a sort of semi-Manicheanism, when it comes to true mainstream Christianity that is believed in my the majority of Christians from most Evangelical Protestants to Mainline Protestants to Apostolic Christians, there is no theology of which you describe.

In orthodox theology, God doesn't create evil. It is impossible to create something that doesn't exist. In reality, hatred is the absence of compassion; evil is the absence of good; chaos the absence of order; darkness the absence of light. These are "no-things," not things themselves. When I said the Devil is of hated and evil, that is to say that the Devil is corrupted nature who embraces a perversion of self. After all, the Devil, while a fallen angel, is still of substance; he is still inherently good just like we are, but has chosen to such an extent to live so perversely that he is truly now but a shadow of his former glorious self. That is why the Devil is so ugly in so many of his depictions: to show his true level of self-corruption. The Devil is to be pitied truly more than feared.

My suggestion is to drop +Spong and pick up St. Clive Staples Lewis. I have no argument that Christianity needs to "reinvent" how it teaches of itself in a new world, but that doesn't mean we drop key beliefs like anti-Manicheanism/Gnosticism, the Virgin Birth, the Nicene Creed, and the such. We find new ways to teach those topics, yes, but we don't throw out the baby along with the bathwater.
 
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MKJ

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I know that 'mainstream' Christianity generally embraces the idea of a Creator God who created evil and hatred. I happen to see no evidence for such a theology and the concept that God created evil and suffering is sick. In fact, the whole idea stands in stark contrast to what Jesus taught.

But don't let me stop anyone playing in the sandpit of their own mind.

Where in the world would you get the idea that Christian theology teaches this? From the New Atheists or some such group? That is way outside of orthodox Christian teaching.

Why do you always accuse everyone else of being stupid?
 
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About a month ago I was talking with my rector at coffee hour. I asked him, "do we have exorcists in most Anglican dioceses here in the States like the Catholics do?" He replied, "most Anglican bishops need an exorcism themselves!" LOL...direct quote. My abs ached from laughing! :p

Well, Anglicans do have exorcists, so they must believe in Satan and demons, or else they'd have nothing to exorcise.
 
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wayseer

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First, since Ebia said it for me already, I'll quote him:

This, and that, as someone who rejects Gnosticism and Manicheanism as the heresies that they are, I have no interest in any theology that entertains the notion of an evil deity or force. Evil is the absence of good, not a substance or essence in its own. In orthodox Christian theology, such a thing is foreign and condemned (and rightly so).

While it is true that in some Evangelical Protestant (and even moreso in Fundamentalist Protestant) circles there is a sort of semi-Manicheanism, when it comes to true mainstream Christianity that is believed in my the majority of Christians from most Evangelical Protestants to Mainline Protestants to Apostolic Christians, there is no theology of which you describe.

In orthodox theology, God doesn't create evil. It is impossible to create something that doesn't exist. In reality, hatred is the absence of compassion; evil is the absence of good; chaos the absence of order; darkness the absence of light. These are "no-things," not things themselves. When I said the Devil is of hated and evil, that is to say that the Devil is corrupted nature who embraces a perversion of self. After all, the Devil, while a fallen angel, is still of substance; he is still inherently good just like we are, but has chosen to such an extent to live so perversely that he is truly now but a shadow of his former glorious self. That is why the Devil is so ugly in so many of his depictions: to show his true level of self-corruption. The Devil is to be pitied truly more than feared.

My suggestion is to drop +Spong and pick up St. Clive Staples Lewis. I have no argument that Christianity needs to "reinvent" how it teaches of itself in a new world, but that doesn't mean we drop key beliefs like anti-Manicheanism/Gnosticism, the Virgin Birth, the Nicene Creed, and the such. We find new ways to teach those topics, yes, but we don't throw out the baby along with the bathwater.

To quote you

The Devil is a real celestial being of evil and hatred.

If, as you contend, the Devil (capital D and all) is a being - a 'fallen substance' - and therefore exists then it had to be created. But if, as I think you wish to argue, God did not create the 'Devil' then who did? Someone other than God perhaps. You are then a Gnostic.

However if, as you allege, evil is the absence of good, then why make such a concrete and didactic statement that the 'Devil is a celestial being'? And in this you are essentially agreeing with me - that there is no such entity as Satan/Devil other than what exists in one's mind.

Or, do you see such a position as mine as but the thin edge of a very wide wedge - that if you make this leap of faith then perhaps other leaps of faith need necessarily follow.

Personally, I think Christians and Christianity needs to embrace a few more leaps of faith.

It is good to see you bring up Spong. But notice that since Spong had the courage to acknowledge the elephant standing in the room the sky has not fallen, the earth has not been scorched, churches have not collapsed.

I have not read Lewis - have you read Brennan Manning?
 
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wayseer

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Where in the world would you get the idea that Christian theology teaches this? From the New Atheists or some such group? That is way outside of orthodox Christian teaching.

Why do you always accuse everyone else of being stupid?

The bells are ring - just read the odd post following some earthly disaster and you will quickly gain the idea that such disasters are but a sign of God's wrath or that the Devil/Satan is responsible. And I note a post on this thread supports the idea that the Devil/Satan exists by pretending not to exist.

I do not 'always' accuse others of being stupid. In fact I don't think I have ever used the word 'stupid' until this post.
 
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ebia

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wayseer said:
To quote you

If, as you contend, the Devil (capital D and all) is a being - a 'fallen substance' - and therefore exists then it had to be created.
I think you need to read PVs post more carefully. He made it quite clear that God created him and then he fell - much like us.
 
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ebia

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wayseer said:
The bells are ring - just read the odd post following some earthly disaster and you will quickly gain the idea that such disasters are but a sign of God's wrath or that the Devil/Satan is responsible.

Such voices are loud but rarely represent mainstream thinking Christianity. Or are you judging all of Christianity by who shouts the loudest now?
 
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wayseer

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I think you need to read PVs post more carefully. He made it quite clear that God created him and then he fell - much like us.

No one 'fell'.

The Fall is nothing less than an escape clause for personally destructive behaviour - it's all God's fault - that is, unless you want to blame women.

We might be lapsed beings - not fallen beings.

Orthodoxy does not place much emphasis on the Fall nor the so-called 'fallen nature' of humanity. Rather, they see humanity as a work in progress - that we come nearer and closer to God as like beings.

The story of Christ is not about the sinfulness of humanity but about the generosity of God.
 
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