How did you arrive at Christianity?

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh I understand that, I was more interested in your particular interpretation of that scripture. To me the approach of always see a scripture in context is a good one, but somehow unsatisfying and not very informative as to what it actually means.

To make a long interpretive process short, here's how I interpret James: if someone is sick, especially if they are sick due to their own sins (...because, yeah, sometimes sin makes us sick), then the person who is sick is to seek out pastors, elders, etc. who have not only strong faith but are also known for being 'righteous.' And James says that "THE prayer of faith" will save the sick. This context, which reflects faith & righteousness, is the theme that is threaded through the whole of James. And this is why the whole passage about healing in James 5 ends with a reference to Elijah as a righteous man who prayed.

So, in essence, James can not be used as some kind of "universal prayer" proof-text by which we think we can just offer up a simple prayer (by ourselves) and be healed, because that is not what it is saying. It's not even saying that if you have faith, that you'll be healed. It's saying that those who have faith and are righteous, and by the intervention of other Christians, God will make them well.

Now, with this contextual flow in mind, try your hand at reinterpreting that verse in Isaiah. I'm sure you can do it.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[possibletarian]

To make a long interpretive process short, here's how I interpret James: if someone is sick, especially if they are sick due to their own sins (...because, yeah, sometimes sin makes us sick), then the person who is sick is to seek out pastors, elders, etc. who have not only strong faith but are also known for being 'righteous.' And James says that "THE prayer of faith" will save the sick. This context, which reflects faith & righteousness, is the theme that is threaded through the whole of James. And this is why the whole passage about healing in James 5 ends with a reference to Elijah as a righteous man who prayed.

So, in essence, James can not be used as some kind of "universal prayer" proof-text by which we think we can just offer up a simple prayer (by ourselves) and be healed, because that is not what it is saying. It's not even saying that if you have faith, that you'll be healed. It's saying that those who have faith and are righteous, and by the intervention of other Christians, God will make them well.

Now, with this contextual flow in mind, try your hand at reinterpreting that verse in Isaiah. I'm sure you can do it.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

So do people prayed for by the elders of the church, who are right with god get well or not, I'm sure you can do it ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So do people prayed for by the elders of the church get well or not, I'm sure you can do it ?

Hah!! I'm not the one you'll want praying over you, I'm sure. (Just being honest.) Doesn't mean I wouldn't pray for you though....

 

[possibletarian]

Hah!! I'm not the one you'll want praying over you, I'm sure. (Just being honest.) Doesn't mean I wouldn't pray for you though....

You are very welcome to pray for me if you feel so led but That does not answer my question, what is that scripture saying? Will people prayer for by the elders of the church get well, or not ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So do people prayed for by the elders of the church, who are right with god get well or not, I'm sure you can do it ?

...and all of this brings up a good point. Who in the Church today (of whatever denomination) seems to express a true righteousness as that of an Elijah? Other than ....maybe....maybe...Billy Graham. I can't really think of too many people that I can point to and say......yeah, he/she is the one to go to.

Kind of sad to think about, really. But, I guess when one lives in what seems to be a 'Laodicean' age, one can't expect too much.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are very welcome to pray for me if you feel so led but That does not answer my question, what is that scripture saying? Will people prayer for by the elders of the church get well, or not ?

I don't know. Find me a truly righteous elder, pastor, leader in the most bona-fide Scriptural sense....and let's go 'test' it out.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are very welcome to pray for me if you feel so led but That does not answer my question, what is that scripture saying? Will people prayer for by the elders of the church get well, or not ?

Also, one of my "go to" books on the subject of healing is the late Ron Dunn's - Will God Heal Me?: Faith in the Midst of Suffering. Dunn goes into hermeneutical depth on this one subject and brings out some interesting historical and exegetical points, in addition to the one I've mentioned above, that have a bearing on how we grapple with this subject/issue.

 

[possibletarian]

I don't know. Find me a truly righteous elder, pastor, leader in the most bona-fide Scriptural sense....and let's go 'test' it out.

Well the righteous person is the person who has had his/her sins forgiven. isn't that all Christians ? Aren't Christians counted as righteous when they receive Jesus i could go on of course. If no one in the church can be righteous, why the scripture at all ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well the righteous person is the person who has had his/her sins forgiven. isn't that all Christians ? Aren't Christians counted as righteous when they receive Jesus i could go on of course. If no one in the church can be righteous, why the scripture at all ?

Um, no. The context of righteousness here is one that indicates the person in question has not only become a Christian, repented of their sins, learned God's Will in Christ, been forgiven and restored....but also now--through spiritual training, discipline and resolve--is actually walking in full obedience on a very consistent basis and not just spiritually "hodge-podging" their way through life like many of us are doing today (in Laodician style).

The scriptures are here to direct us anyway, even if we fail. I'm glad the scriptures are still available even though it's hard for all of us.

 

[possibletarian]

Um, no. The context of righteousness here is one that indicates the person in question has not only become a Christian, repented of their sins, learned God's Will in Christ, been forgiven and restored....but also now--through spiritual training, discipline and resolve--is actually walking in full obedience on a very consistent basis and not just spiritually "hodge-podging" their way through life like many of us are doing today (in Laodician style).

The scriptures are here to direct us anyway, even if we fail. I'm glad the scriptures are still available even though it's hard for all of us.

Then why the scripture at all ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Then why the scripture at all ?

Really, that question makes no sense. The scriptures are indicating that....it IS actually POSSIBLE (your favorite word) for people to be righteous on a practical scale as God would like them to be. It's not impossible. People have to be willing to carry the burden. But just because it may be VERY, VERY difficult doesn't mean we should all just break down and cry about it, throw a tantrum and toss the Bible against the wall....

Yes, it's difficult. For all of us. But it's not really impossible. It's just that the Devil is very good as screwing society up so most of us walk through each day of our lives in sheer frustration, thinking that it is impossible to follow God and to see His light. But, don't let the Darkness fool you.....

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Then why the scripture at all ?

And also there is what Paul wrote in Romans 15:4,


Romans 15:4 New International Version (NIV)

4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

 

[possibletarian]

Really, that question makes no sense. The scriptures are indicating that....it IS actually POSSIBLE (your favorite word) for people to be righteous on a practical scale as God would like them to be. It's not impossible. People have to be willing to carry the burden. But just because it may be VERY, VERY difficult doesn't mean we should all just break down and cry about it, throw a tantrum and toss the Bible against the wall....

Yes, it's difficult. For all of us. But it's not really impossible. It's just that the Devil is very good as screwing society up so most of us walk through each day of our lives in sheer frustration, thinking that it is impossible to follow God and to see His light. But, don't let the Darkness fool you.....

Now now, it's a valid question.

So is there a 'Super righteousness' and a 'Normal lesser righteousness' ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Now now, it's a valid question.

So is there a 'Super righteousness' and a 'Normal lesser righteousness' ?

yep. It would be great to be walking the walk as we're supposed to, wouldn't it? But that cross is very heavy, isn't it? (This may sound like I'm being snide, but I'm not. Just take it as a prompt for thinking about things more deeply...)

 

[possibletarian]

yep. It would be great to be walking the walk as we're supposed to, wouldn't it? But that cross is very heavy, isn't it? (This may sound like I'm being snide, but I'm not. Just take it as a prompt for thinking about things more deeply...)

Oh no I don't mind at all, But wasn't that the point of the cross that out faith be counted as righteousness ?
Wasn't the whole point ..

Romans 4
13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.”4:17 Gen 17:5. This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.....

He was fully convinced that God is able to do whatever he promises. 22And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous. 23And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded 24for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.

See I cannot reconcile scripture with a 'we are not really righteous' therefore this or that scripture (which should be true) is in fact true in some mysterious convoluted way. but not true in any testable way.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh no I don't mind at all, But wasn't that the point of the cross that out faith be counted as righteousness ?
Wasn't the whole point ..

Romans 4
13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.”4:17 Gen 17:5. This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.....

He was fully convinced that God is able to do whatever he promises. 22And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous. 23And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded 24for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.

See I cannot reconcile scripture with a 'we are not really righteous' therefore this or that scripture (which should be true) is in fact true in some mysterious convoluted way. but not true in any testable way.

[edit for clarity]
...uh no. Because if the righteousness that is imputed to us by God via the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus would mean that God wouldn't put some of us to death for continuing to sin, then we should think that God would never kill us......................................but sometimes, God DOES take us to heaven early due to sins. All of which indicates that there is a difference between being 'forgiven' by Christ and having His righteousness applied to us for that forgiveness, on the one hand, and the actual WALK that He STILL expects us to grow into and take upon ourselves within our own lifetime, on the other. Paul talks about this again and again, despite some of the proof-texting by various Christians to the contrary.

It's always easier to rip tiny bits of scripture out of the Bible and say that we are "just claiming and standing upon the Word of God!"

--To which I say, "Hey, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T TRAMPLE THE WORD OF GOD WHEN DOING SO!!!"

 

[possibletarian]

...uh no. Because if the righteousness that is imputed to us by God via the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus would mean that God wouldn't put some of us to death for continuing to sin......................................and sometimes, God DOES take us to heaven early due to sins. All of which indicates that there is a difference between being 'forgiven' by Christ and having His righteousness applied to us for that forgiveness, on the one hand, and the actual WALK that He STILL expects us to grow into and take upon ourselves within our own lifetime, on the other. Paul talks about this again and again, despite some of the proof-texting by various Christians to the contrary.

It's always easier to rip tiny bits of scripture out of the Bible and say that we are "just claiming and standing upon the Word of God!"

--To which I say, "Hey, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T TRAMPLE THE WORD OF GOD WHEN DOING SO!!!"

Okay so what was Paul talking about then, some kind of vague nothingness ?
Was Paul saying we are not really righteous by faith? I find this very confusing.
When it said some had the gift of healing was that not really true also ?
How much scripture must I read/quote before it is in some context?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay so what was Paul talking about then, some kind of vague nothingness ?
Was Paul saying we are not really righteous by faith? I find this very confusing.

It's not that hard to understand. It means that Jesus' death on the cross allows us to get to heaven and be with Him for eternity (wherever) instead of going the other direction.

HOWEVER, if after we accept Christ, we persist in sin or get excessively sloppy with our faith, we can put ourselves in a position where our present lives are REVOKED and ended early by God Himself. We still go to heaven in such a case because we don't deny the faith and we are still moderately (lukewarmly or coldly) "Christian," but we no longer get to participate in this present earthly life.

 

[possibletarian]

It's not that hard to understand. It means that Jesus' death on the cross allows us to get to heaven and be with Him for eternity (wherever) instead of going the other direction.

That's what the bible says

HOWEVER, if after we accept Christ, we persist in sin or get excessively sloppy with our faith, we can put ourselves in a position where our present lives are REVOKED and ended early by God Himself. We still go to heaven in such a case because we don't deny the faith and we are still moderately (lukewarmly or coldly) "Christian," but we no longer get to participate in this present earthly life.

But given that faith is a gift (given freely) aren't people who believe righteous by definition ? How about a simple believing god ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's what the bible says



But given that faith is a gift (given freely) aren't people who believe righteous by definition ? How about a simple believing god ?

...again, there you go "proof-texting." Here's my challenge .... Read Paul's entire Letter to the Romans, take notes, and then read his entire 1st letter to the Corinthians, as well as that favorite of Ephesians where people always pick out that we are "save by grace and not of ourselves," and then get back to me.

I'm going to assume that since your CF name alludes to something about your thought that at least some things are possible, you'll give me the benefit of the doubt.