How did you arrive at Christianity?

skalle

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Why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Hindu? Why aren't you an atheist? A humanist? Even a Satanist? What about Christianity makes you believe it's true? I honestly cannot understand how people can be so sure of Christianity when they're literally atheistic about every single religion except theirs. So, please explain. For those who don't remember me, you are assured that this is not a trap, though I am eager to discuss.
 

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- I believe in a god all I've learned about the universe and nature, everything from astrophysics to microbiology, I don't see how it could have happened, and everything exists and work the way it does without a Creator.
- I believe in God partially because I grew up in a Christian home, there have been several times in my life where God has intervened in my life that I have no explanation for other than "God did it" and partially because of what follows...
- I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that partially from his birth, life, and teachings, but mostly due to his resurrection.
- I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead because I think the literal, physical resurrection of Christ is the best explanation for the origin of Christianity.
There's ultimately three choices when it comes to Jesus,
1) He didn't exist - This doesn't fit into the origins of Christianity. I don't know why anyone would make up a story that gave them no immediate personal gain, wealth, and would ultimately end in their death. There are Roman records consistent with Biblical accounts of persecution, and the vast majority of scholars agree that he did exist.
2) He was just a man - If Jesus was just a man and didn't rise from the dead, 1. Where is his body? 2. If his body was stolen, someone at some point would have cracked and said "We hid it!", or if it was a conspiracy, and only two or three people knew, it's again the worst conspiracy ever as it gives them no personal gain whatsoever.
3) He was who he says he was. - As irrational as the idea of someone rising from the dead is (which is why it's a big deal that Jesus did), the essential either comes down believing sociopathic lunatics or believing that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God.
- Therefore, since Jesus is the Son of God, he would best know how people should live their life. He wrote our biology, psychology, so he would know how to live the best way possible for everyone.
- Thus, I believe Christianity is the best way to live.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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- I believe in a god all I've learned about the universe and nature, everything from astrophysics to microbiology, I don't see how it could have happened, and everything exists and work the way it does without a Creator.

Argument from personal incredulity fallacy.

- I believe in God partially because I grew up in a Christian home, there have been several times in my life where God has intervened in my life that I have no explanation for other than "God did it" and partially because of what follows...

Argument from ignorance fallacy.

- I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that partially from his birth, life, and teachings, but mostly due to his resurrection.

I don't know what his birth convinces you of. All it convinces me of is that the author of Matthew is a liar. He took Isaiah 7:14 out of context. Just read Isaiah for yourself:

Chapter 7
14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


Chapter 8
2And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.

3And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.

4For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.


As is commonly known, "virgin" in verse 14 is the poor translation of the Hebrew word "almah." An "almah" is a woman who has not given birth to a child; a "betulah" is a virgin, and if Isaiah meant to refer to a virgin birth then he would've used the proper word.

Isaiah was speaking to King Ahaz, and he was telling king Ahaz that his city would not be sacked. To confirm this prophecy, King Ahaz was allowed to ask for a sign; he refused, but Isaiah insisted and said that a sign would be given anyway. The sign was that a child would be born and that before the child is a man, the enemies of King Ahaz would be destroyed. After delivering the rest of the prophecy, Isaiah gathers witnesses to watch him have sex with a prophetess. She conceives, and Isaiah identifies the child with the prophecy by repeating the same terms and phrases.

If Immanuel is Jesus, then we are to believe that Isaiah essentially told the king, "Your city will not be sacked; the confirmation of this prophecy is a sign that will come to pass 700 years after your death." How absurd is that?

This all arose because Matthew could not read Hebrew. How embarrassing.




I am even more confused about your reference to Christ's life and teachings. I could easily say that for every teaching of Jesus that you adhere to I could name another that you completely ignore, but that would be met with a yawn. I'd have to at least offer a 3:1 ratio to even make it interesting.

Or did you sell all that you have, give the money to the poor, and wander the world doing good works and preaching the gospel?




Lastly you mention the resurrection. At least we agree on the fact that this is the lynch pin upon which all claims rest.

Assuming historicity of Jesus, the resurrection is easily debunked. Mark is widely accepted as the first gospel and as the source material for Matthew and Luke. It is also widely accepted that the original copies of Mark end with the boy in the tomb proclaiming that Jesus had risen: the earliest copies of Mark do not mention postmortem appearances of Jesus.

In adding to Mark's version, Matthew and Luke provide their own independent details. For the most part, Matthew might discuss X and be silent on Y while Luke is silent on X and discusses Y. When they both mention the same detail, they rarely contradict one another. Yet when we get to the resurrection, all four gospels contradict each other all over the place. This is because the original version of Mark was what everyone had, and then when everyone spread out in different directions the different groups fabricated their own legends to "complete" what Mark originally left open-ended.

- I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead because I think the literal, physical resurrection of Christ is the best explanation for the origin of Christianity.
There's ultimately three choices when it comes to Jesus,
1) He didn't exist - This doesn't fit into the origins of Christianity. I don't know why anyone would make up a story that gave them no immediate personal gain, wealth, and would ultimately end in their death. There are Roman records consistent with Biblical accounts of persecution, and the vast majority of scholars agree that he did exist.
2) He was just a man - If Jesus was just a man and didn't rise from the dead, 1. Where is his body? 2. If his body was stolen, someone at some point would have cracked and said "We hid it!", or if it was a conspiracy, and only two or three people knew, it's again the worst conspiracy ever as it gives them no personal gain whatsoever.
3) He was who he says he was. - As irrational as the idea of someone rising from the dead is (which is why it's a big deal that Jesus did), the essential either comes down believing sociopathic lunatics or believing that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God.
- Therefore, since Jesus is the Son of God, he would best know how people should live their life. He wrote our biology, psychology, so he would know how to live the best way possible for everyone.
- Thus, I believe Christianity is the best way to live.

Mainly just a mix of CS Lewis with Lee Strobel and the "Why die for a lie?" argument which is already an argument from personal incredulity. On top of that, the "Why die for a lie?" argument is itself a lie - there is no one in history who was a purported eyewitness of the physical resurrection who was also known to have been given the opportunity to recant the gospel and go free or else face torture and/or execution. We don't know what was said at Peter's execution, and if the Catholic traditions on the other martyrs are taken as fact we still don't know what was said. It's not until Polycarp - who was born decades too late - do we see someone saying, "I will not recant Christ and go free."
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Hindu? Why aren't you an atheist? A humanist? Even a Satanist? What about Christianity makes you believe it's true? I honestly cannot understand how people can be so sure of Christianity when they're literally atheistic about every single religion except theirs. So, please explain. For those who don't remember me, you are assured that this is not a trap, though I am eager to discuss.

Hi skalle,

In sum, I'd say that my 'arrival' at Christianity has been more of an ongoing experience of mind expansion since I first cracked open the Bible for myself at age 17. I'd also say that some of my openness to faith came about because when I was young, I used to be deathly afraid of death. I also had family problems to contend with which were at times insurmountable, and Christianity seemed to offer a healthy outlet along with a more substantive sense of direction in life.

In the process of learning about the nuances of religion and belief, Jesus Christ seemed to become--and has remained-- the more sensible option among the choices to be had, as well as the most aesthetically appealing one. So, I boarded the cruise ship of faith, and I haven't had any good reason to jump overboard, even though I'll admit that I do occasionally get "sea sickness." But, that's just being human.

Yep. That's about the gist of it. :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Ed1wolf

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Why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Hindu? Why aren't you an atheist? A humanist? Even a Satanist? What about Christianity makes you believe it's true? I honestly cannot understand how people can be so sure of Christianity when they're literally atheistic about every single religion except theirs. So, please explain. For those who don't remember me, you are assured that this is not a trap, though I am eager to discuss.
Well when I was a child I was an agnostic but raised in a Christian family. Then I prayed for something and it was answered. That convinced me that there was a god, but then later as learned more about the world and met some really great Christians caused me to turn to the Christian God and then my experiences with Him convinced me that He was the true God. Later over the years I have had some doubts but all my research and education convinced me more and more that Christianity is the most rational religion and worldview. All the other major religions have serious problems.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The short answer is that I believe in Christianity because I consider it true. I can hardly be expected to hold to views I consider false, like Atheism or Buddhism.

I used to be an Atheist, but after deconstructing my own views, broadening my reading, adopting some axiomatic propositions and personal experience, I became convinced in the essential truth of theism.

Why I became a Christian was a mixed affair. Chiefly though, again I think it true. Christianity is a messy affair: claiming one God but describing Him as three, multiple theories of Atonement, effluvia of Semitic culture embedded within its scriptures, etc.
It has that paradoxical, chaotic jumble that true things have. Not neat and simple, but seemingly simple while fiendishly complex. Think of the Sciences or Medicine: They are never clear, always different than one really would expect. We see time, but it becomes relative to speed. We see the sun turn around the earth, but it is the other way around. We feel emotion in our chest or abdomen or with flushed skin, but it probably lies in the deep recesses of the Lymbic system.
In like manner, we must tease apart reality and at its core I found God. Christianity explains the mythologies of man, it explains why we are predisposed to be religious, both physiologically and psychologically, it salvages our confused epistemologies and saves us from solipsism or the total depravity inherent in Neo-Darwinian views of 'selfish genes' being responsible for all goodness, familial feeling or altruism. It complements human knowledge, bringing forth a richness it otherwise lacks.
Buddhism expects me to deny my basic experience as Sunya or void. Islam lacks redemption. Pantheism denies essential morality, which I clearly feel within me and demonstrated without. Polytheism just slips a level lower, but still requires a Summus Deus, a highest God to remain coherent. While I think there are many sincere attempts to reach God, their truth is only partial and the fullest, most complete religious system I find to be Christianity. Of course, I have Christian heritage and some far off Jewish Ancestry, but the fact that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seems so reasonable to me, is an additional boon. I tried not to be Christian, I tried giving the other religions a fair chance, but Christ was the only deity that seemed Real. As CS Lewis said: "I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not just because I see it, but by it I see everything else."

This is a question though of Metaphysics, of what we hold true. It is therefore a matter of faith, either in the religion itself, or the underlying worldview we would use to exclude it
 
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StTruth

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Why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Hindu? Why aren't you an atheist? A humanist? Even a Satanist? What about Christianity makes you believe it's true? I honestly cannot understand how people can be so sure of Christianity when they're literally atheistic about every single religion except theirs. So, please explain. For those who don't remember me, you are assured that this is not a trap, though I am eager to discuss.

Hi skalie,

Thanks for your very insightful post. I will answer is plainly and truthfully. I am a Christian because my family is Christian and I was baptised 16 years ago at birth. I'm also an altar boy which makes me more religious.

When you are brought up in the faith, it's easy to believe it's true. That's natural. But of course when you are asked to defend its truth, you can't do it because objectively speaking, it is no more truthful than the million other religions there are in the world.

Let me know if there is anything else you want to know.

Cheers,

St Truth
 
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Uber Genius

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people can be so sure of Christianity when they're literally atheistic about every single religion except theirs.

This is not a difficult question. When we read the world religions argue for their various explanation about:

Where we came from?
Where we are going when we die?
How do I live my life with respect to people and objects in the world?
How do I find ultimate meaning in life?

Christianity stand alone in its uniqueness and explanatory power.

Further there are both conceptual arguments:

From contingency, from Kalam, various design arguments, moral, and various transcendental arguments that I find compelling.

Further I have a rich experience of God many times across the last 42 years.

Apart from argument and evidence, I have a properly basic knowledge of God through the presence of the Holy Spirit that produces a sense of other-worldly peace as well as other warrants.

As to your unfortunate description, "Atheist about every other religion," this unfortunate bumper-sticker authored by intellectually bereft Richard Dawkins, misses the point that

ALL knowledge claims are exclusive!

His own work in Evolutionary Biology is atheistic with respect to competing inferences about causes and effects in his published research.

I am atheistic about every other answer other 4 if the question is what is 2+2!

These are thoughtless rhetorical vehicles that confuse and conflate rather than bring clarity.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Hi skalie,

Thanks for your very insightful post. I will answer is plainly and truthfully. I am a Christian because my family is Christian and I was baptised 16 years ago at birth. I'm also an altar boy which makes me more religious.

When you are brought up in the faith, it's easy to believe it's true. That's natural. But of course when you are asked to defend its truth, you can't do it because objectively speaking, it is no more truthful than the million other religions there are in the world.

Let me know if there is anything else you want to know.

Cheers,

St Truth
St., I am afraid I disagree with your statement about Christianity being no more truthful than other religions. It actually can be shown that it has more evidence backing it up and its teachings have been confirmed by more science, history, and philosophy than any other religion. I recommend doing some research. Take care.
 
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StTruth

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St., I am afraid I disagree with your statement about Christianity being no more truthful than other religions. It actually can be shown that it has more evidence backing it up and its teachings have been confirmed by more science, history, and philosophy than any other religion. I recommend doing some research. Take care.

Hi Ed1wolf,
Thanks for your response. I have done all my research and my conclusion (which I can easily defend in any debate which I welcome with open arms because the truth should always prevail) is:-

1. there is zilch evidence to support our faith and the claims of our religion.
2. the absence of evidence is the same for other religions.
3. the probability that our God exists is much less than the probability for flying unicorns to exist because our God intervenes in human affairs whereas the flying unicorn minds its own business and may exist in a different solar system which we know nothing about.
4. A lot of times when apologists say that a certain biblical claim is confirmed by science and you look at it, you are sure to see that it's all hogwash. I've read once how a scientist who's a Christian tried so hard to show that Genesis 1 is supported by science. I felt so sorry for him because it's patently obvious to me that he has tried too hard to justify an obvious wrong. I'm not denigrating the account in Gen 1. I'm just saying that is ancient Hebrew cosmology which is of course totally wrong but we can't claim the early Jews who had very little to go by.

Cheers,

St Truth
 
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Ed1wolf

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Hi Ed1wolf,
Thanks for your response. I have done all my research and my conclusion (which I can easily defend in any debate which I welcome with open arms because the truth should always prevail) is:-

1. there is zilch evidence to support our faith and the claims of our religion.
2. the absence of evidence is the same for other religions.
3. the probability that our God exists is much less than the probability for flying unicorns to exist because our God intervenes in human affairs whereas the flying unicorn minds its own business and may exist in a different solar system which we know nothing about.
4. A lot of times when apologists say that a certain biblical claim is confirmed by science and you look at it, you are sure to see that it's all hogwash. I've read once how a scientist who's a Christian tried so hard to show that Genesis 1 is supported by science. I felt so sorry for him because it's patently obvious to me that he has tried too hard to justify an obvious wrong. I'm not denigrating the account in Gen 1. I'm just saying that is ancient Hebrew cosmology which is of course totally wrong but we can't claim the early Jews who had very little to go by.

Cheers,

St Truth
I will give two examples of the scientific evidence for Christianity. First, the universe has been pretty much been proven to be an effect and therefore requires a cause and in fact a personal cause because purposes exist in the universe and we know that purposes only come from personal beings. So this eliminates flying unicorns as the creator of the existence because they are not persons they are horses. But of course, we cannot prove that they unicorns do not exist, but we can demonstrate that they did not create this universe. Second, out of all the major sacred books and religions only the Christianity and the Bible teaches that the universe had a definite beginning and was created out of nothing detectable. Both of which have been confirmed by the BB theory. From history, the resurrection of Christ has better documentary evidence than Caesars Gallic Wars. Philosophically, the very nature of the universe, ie that it is a diversity within a unity, point to the Christian God as its creator because we know that most creators imprint aspects of themselves in their creations. And only the Christian God is a true diversity within a unity, ie the Trinity. And these are just a few of the evidences for Christianity in the three areas of science, history and philosophy.
 
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StTruth

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I will give two examples of the scientific evidence for Christianity. First, the universe has been pretty much been proven to be an effect and therefore requires a cause and in fact a personal cause because purposes exist in the universe and we know that purposes only come from personal beings. So this eliminates flying unicorns as the creator of the existence because they are not persons they are horses. But of course, we cannot prove that they unicorns do not exist, but we can demonstrate that they did not create this universe. Second, out of all the major sacred books and religions only the Christianity and the Bible teaches that the universe had a definite beginning and was created out of nothing detectable. Both of which have been confirmed by the BB theory. From history, the resurrection of Christ has better documentary evidence than Caesars Gallic Wars. Philosophically, the very nature of the universe, ie that it is a diversity within a unity, point to the Christian God as its creator because we know that most creators imprint aspects of themselves in their creations. And only the Christian God is a true diversity within a unity, ie the Trinity. And these are just a few of the evidences for Christianity in the three areas of science, history and philosophy.

Hi Erd1wolf,

Thank you very much for this post which is so clear and so straight to the point.

Your statement that 'the universe has been pretty much proven to be an effect' needs clarification. I am not aware of any such proof. I've only heard it in the youtube talks of Ravi Zacharias that the universe is an effect and must have a cause. You go further to say that the cause must be 'a personal cause because purposes exist in the universe'. Now, that is totally incorrect. Purposes do not exist in the universe. The only people who talk about a purpose for anything, whether it's the purpose of life or the purpose of our existence are Christian apologists because they have presupposed an intelligent God as creator and He must have a purpose in His creation. But let's be clear here. Apart from religious people, nobody and certainly not scientists ever talk about the idea that there is purpose in the universe. Hence, your first point consists of presuppositions pegged on presuppositions and further pegged on more presuppositions.

I'm not aware that the Bible says God created the universe out of nothing. Gen 1:1 says 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.' That is all. Everything else is added on by Christian thinkers and apologists. This is precisely the style of any ancient book. It's scientifically wrong to mention the heavens and the earth. In fact, if you read Gen 1 further, you will understand that 'the heavens' is actually nothing more than a sheet which God stretches over the earth. This is a part of ancient Hebrew cosmology which is of course flawed. That is why God could hang stars on the heavens or firmament. If you read Gen 1 further, you will find a lot more that is wrong about ancient Hebrew cosmology. I can go into the details if you want. Most of the time Christian writers make something out of nothing. All the Bible says is a very basic statement that is only correct in the ancient understanding of the universe. But we see more to it than is really there. You see a creation of a universe out of nothing. That's not what the Bible says at all.

Even if the Bible were to say or imply that the universe was created out of nothing, it's nothing wondrous or great. There are only a few possibilities. 1. The universe has always existed. 2. The universe had a beginning. One would have expected a monotheistic religion to opt for the second scenario and perhaps a polytheistic religion with its pantheon of gods and goddesses to opt for the first scenario. That's because in the monotheistic concept, nothing comes about without God creating it. So the idea for the universe to have a beginning is bound to happen in a monotheistic religion. It doesn't mean the Bible is right. If they come up with a solo Almighty God, it's natural that they would choose that particular paradigm. But Gen 1 itself (if we forget the words of apologists who try to turn it into something correct and scientific) is in fact the clearest example of how the writers of Genesis did not even understand the concept of clouds, sky (that there is no sheet of 'sky' up above us) and just about everything else about the cosmos. This ignorance is very telling but to ignore it all and just say that hooray, they got it right that the universe has a beginning is terribly wrong.

The resurrection of Christ has the worst documentary evidence I can think of. It is so flawed that even the evangelists could not get their act together in the Holy Gospels. I have read the different ways apologists have tried to 'harmonise' the contradictions in the Holy Gospels about the Crucifixion and Resurrection stories of our Lord but they have failed totally. Many times, Christian writers have mistaken the bulk of copies in the 14th century as evidence of reliability but they are wrong. Whether the Holy Gospels are reliable cannot depend on how many copies were made by the church many hundreds of years after they were written or even (as is more often the case) more than 1300 years later).

There is zilch evidence for God. We think there is evidence because we pick up small fragments which don't even make up the smallest shred of evidence and build a case from there. It's because of the apologists and writers who mislead us. And it's easy for us to fall for their deception because our faith means so much to us and we yearn to see some evidence for the God we worship. But there is no evidence and the extent of our faith will determine whether we continue to worship Jesus despite the absence of evidence. That has a lot to do with how much we love Him.

Cheers,

St Truth
 
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Ed1wolf

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Hi Erd1wolf,

Thank you very much for this post which is so clear and so straight to the point.

Your statement that 'the universe has been pretty much proven to be an effect' needs clarification. I am not aware of any such proof. I've only heard it in the youtube talks of Ravi Zacharias that the universe is an effect and must have a cause.

No, actual astronomers and cosmologists say it also. Read Dr. Donald Goldsmith in the Nov. 2007 issue of the Natural History magazine where he says that the majority of physicists agree that the universe had a definite beginning. According to a basic law of logic, the law of causality anything that has a beginning and is changing is an effect, and the universe has been shown to have both. Also, Dr. Hugh Ross, Arno Penzias, and Keith Ward also agree that the universe is an effect and needs a cause.


st: You go further to say that the cause must be 'a personal cause because purposes exist in the universe'. Now, that is totally incorrect. Purposes do not exist in the universe. The only people who talk about a purpose for anything, whether it's the purpose of life or the purpose of our existence are Christian apologists because they have presupposed an intelligent God as creator and He must have a purpose in His creation. But let's be clear here. Apart from religious people, nobody and certainly not scientists ever talk about the idea that there is purpose in the universe. Hence, your first point consists of presuppositions pegged on presuppositions and further pegged on more presuppositions.

No, all biologists agree that ears are for hearing and eyes are for seeing and many other biological structures have many other purposes.

st: I'm not aware that the Bible says God created the universe out of nothing. Gen 1:1 says 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.' That is all. Everything else is added on by Christian thinkers and apologists. This is precisely the style of any ancient book. It's scientifically wrong to mention the heavens and the earth.

Read Hebrews 11:3. Heavens and earth is the Hebrew conjunctive phrase that means the entire physical universe. Look it up in any book on ancient Hebrew.

End of part I of my response.
 
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StTruth

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No, actual astronomers and cosmologists say it also. Read Dr. Donald Goldsmith in the Nov. 2007 issue of the Natural History magazine where he says that the majority of physicists agree that the universe had a definite beginning. According to a basic law of logic, the law of causality anything that has a beginning and is changing is an effect, and the universe has been shown to have both. Also, Dr. Hugh Ross, Arno Penzias, and Keith Ward also agree that the universe is an effect and needs a cause.

I see what you mean. Let me correct my earlier wrong perception of your meaning. If you put it that way, yes, the universe is caused by the Big Bang. If you must call it an effect, yes, the universe is the effect of the Big Bang. But that doesn't show anything. Ancient cosmologists with all their flaws can only come up with two speculations - 1. the universe is caused by something. and 2. the universe has always existed. The fact that a monotheistic, God-is-supreme religion chose the first option is no surprise. Neither is it something to go wow over. It's to be expected.


No, all biologists agree that ears are for hearing and eyes are for seeing and many other biological structures have many other purposes.

I'm sorry to contradict you but you are wrong. Biologists don't speak in that pious religious language. A scientist would say the ear has a FUNCTION. It functions well in the hearing domain. 'Purpose' is the language of religious people with their presuppositions.

Read Hebrews 11:3. Heavens and earth is the Hebrew conjunctive phrase that means the entire physical universe. Look it up in any book on ancient Hebrew.

End of part I of my response.

I have looked it up. Read Genesis 1. That will show you how flawed ancient Hebrew cosmology is (which is the same as the idea of the Earth's beginning according to the Bible) and you will understand what they mean by 'heavens' or firmament or sky or whatever translation your Bible uses. And there is a reason why it's always 'the heavens and the earth'. Ancient Hebrew cosmology which is flawed looks at the earth as flat but roundish and God is said to spread the heavens over the earth. It's like a sheet of canvass that is spread above us. That sheet is called heavens, sky, firmament, whatever. Above this sheet is water. Below this sheet is also water in the form of clouds. On this sheet, God hangs the sun, the moon, etc. If you think that at all accords with reality, you must be joking. Read Genesis 1 without altering its meaning as many religious people are apt to do and you are sure to agree with me.

Cheers,

St Truth
 
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radhead

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I will give two examples of the scientific evidence for Christianity. First, the universe has been pretty much been proven to be an effect and therefore requires a cause and in fact a personal cause because purposes exist in the universe and we know that purposes only come from personal beings. So this eliminates flying unicorns as the creator of the existence because they are not persons they are horses. But of course, we cannot prove that they unicorns do not exist, but we can demonstrate that they did not create this universe. Second, out of all the major sacred books and religions only the Christianity and the Bible teaches that the universe had a definite beginning and was created out of nothing detectable. Both of which have been confirmed by the BB theory. From history, the resurrection of Christ has better documentary evidence than Caesars Gallic Wars. Philosophically, the very nature of the universe, ie that it is a diversity within a unity, point to the Christian God as its creator because we know that most creators imprint aspects of themselves in their creations. And only the Christian God is a true diversity within a unity, ie the Trinity. And these are just a few of the evidences for Christianity in the three areas of science, history and philosophy.

The first part of your statement (primate not unicorn created everything) is so absurd, and it actually sounds like you are joking.

But the second part (more documentation) is just evil. The fact that the Bible was so heavily promoted by a powerful empire for religious propaganda does NOT give it validity. I wouldn't care if you were joking. It's evil.
 
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Ed1wolf

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In fact, if you read Gen 1 further, you will understand that 'the heavens' is actually nothing more than a sheet which God stretches over the earth. This is a part of ancient Hebrew cosmology which is of course flawed. That is why God could hang stars on the heavens or firmament. If you read Gen 1 further, you will find a lot more that is wrong about ancient Hebrew cosmology.
No, actually the Hebrew word translated firmament can also mean open space. I am not referring to ancient Hebrew cosmology, I am referring to biblical cosmology. The bible plainly teaches that we can learn about God from His creation ie nature. Read the Psalms among many other places. There are two revelations from God, there is special revelation, the Bible, and then there is what is called general revelation, nature/creation. They are two "books" from God. And they can be shown to be compatible and can be used to understand each revelation using the right literal Hebrew definitions of real Hebrew words.



st: I can go into the details if you want. Most of the time Christian writers make something out of nothing. All the Bible says is a very basic statement that is only correct in the ancient understanding of the universe. But we see more to it than is really there. You see a creation of a universe out of nothing. That's not what the Bible says at all.

Yes it does, read Hebrews 11:3. Though technically its says that created from that which is not detectable. Which is exactly what science has confirmed.

st: Even if the Bible were to say or imply that the universe was created out of nothing, it's nothing wondrous or great. There are only a few possibilities. 1. The universe has always existed. 2. The universe had a beginning. One would have expected a monotheistic religion to opt for the second scenario and perhaps a polytheistic religion with its pantheon of gods and goddesses to opt for the first scenario. That's because in the monotheistic concept, nothing comes about without God creating it. So the idea for the universe to have a beginning is bound to happen in a monotheistic religion. It doesn't mean the Bible is right.
The bible is the only significant religious book that teaches that the universe had definite beginning and came from nothing physical. That IS evidence that the bible actually have a divine origin. This was 2000 years before it was confirmed by science. Scientists used to believe that the universe was eternal but now we know that is incorrect confirming the bible.



st: If they come up with a solo Almighty God, it's natural that they would choose that particular paradigm. But Gen 1 itself (if we forget the words of apologists who try to turn it into something correct and scientific) is in fact the clearest example of how the writers of Genesis did not even understand the concept of clouds, sky (that there is no sheet of 'sky' up above us) and just about everything else about the cosmos. This ignorance is very telling but to ignore it all and just say that hooray, they got it right that the universe has a beginning is terribly wrong.

No, see above about what the Hebrew can also mean, it can also mean open space literally. Also, see above I am referring not the ancient Hebrew cosmology but rather the biblical cosmology revealed by God in His two books.
 
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StTruth

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No, actually the Hebrew word translated firmament can also mean open space. I am not referring to ancient Hebrew cosmology, I am referring to biblical cosmology. The bible plainly teaches that we can learn about God from His creation ie nature. Read the Psalms among many other places. There are two revelations from God, there is special revelation, the Bible, and then there is what is called general revelation, nature/creation. They are two "books" from God. And they can be shown to be compatible and can be used to understand each revelation using the right literal Hebrew definitions of real Hebrew words.





Yes it does, read Hebrews 11:3. Though technically its says that created from that which is not detectable. Which is exactly what science has confirmed.


The bible is the only significant religious book that teaches that the universe had definite beginning and came from nothing physical. That IS evidence that the bible actually have a divine origin. This was 2000 years before it was confirmed by science. Scientists used to believe that the universe was eternal but now we know that is incorrect confirming the bible.





No, see above about what the Hebrew can also mean, it can also mean open space literally. Also, see above I am referring not the ancient Hebrew cosmology but rather the biblical cosmology revealed by God in His two books.


Hi Ed1wolf,

Thank you for your response. You have misunderstood me. Biblical cosmology is the same as ancient Hebrew cosmology which is flawed and for a good reason too since ancient Jews knew nothing beyond their very primitive observation. Let's look at Gen 1 more closely. I'll use the KJV (you can use any version) just so that the fundamentalists won't raise unnecessary objections.

Gen 1 says this:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

So, what have we here? Let's not add to the word of God but let's read it and apply it faithfully. First, God wants to divide water from water. He made a firmament. You say I was wrong and the firmament can mean a space and not just a sheet. After reading the word of God more carefully, I admit you may be right. So God put the firmament (space) to separate the water that is under the firmament from the water that is above the firmament. Since I'm using the KJV, God called the firmament 'heaven'. But that doesn't matter. A rose by any other name still smells as sweet. Names should not stump us here. But let's note that when 'heaven' appears in Gen 1, the verse makes it clear that it's the firmament (or sky in some other versions).

Let's read on.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

This makes things clearer. When God said he wanted to separate water from water, the water under the firmament or heaven or sky is the seas. Although it's not stated here, presumably, the water above the firmament must be the clouds. But whatever this water is, note that it's ABOVE the firmament or heaven or sky.

What did God place on the firmament?

Verse 17 says this:
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth

Note that 'them' refers to the sun and the moon, if you read the preceding verses. So, God set the sun and the moon on the firmament. You must picture this in your mind because this is precisely what ancient Hebrew cosmology is about and the Bible affirms it. The seas are the water below the firmament. There is water ABOVE the firmament. In the firmament itself we have the sun and the moon. Mind you, the water is above the firmament.

Anybody who lives in the 21st century can immediately spot the flaw of such cosmology. Apologists have tried to salvage this obvious error but apart from making up additional verses, they are sunk.

Cheers,

St Truth
 
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Silmarien

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Why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Hindu? Why aren't you an atheist? A humanist? Even a Satanist? What about Christianity makes you believe it's true? I honestly cannot understand how people can be so sure of Christianity when they're literally atheistic about every single religion except theirs. So, please explain. For those who don't remember me, you are assured that this is not a trap, though I am eager to discuss.

I could probably be considered a Mysterian theist. Mysterianism is a philosophical view that posits cognitive closure--the idea that the human mind is no more equipped to answer questions about the human condition and the ultimate nature of reality than a mouse would be to solve algebraic equations. I suspect that this is true, but feel that it's a self-refuting form of naturalism--you can't claim that human knowledge is limited and then cling dogmatically to a metaphysical position that reduces reality to the limits of scientific understanding. I identify as a strong agnostic in my more nihilistic moments, but due to this particular issue, I reject atheism as an untenable position.

That huge epistemological mess set aside, I have some very, very deep disagreements with modern metaphysics, both in the philosophy of mind and of science, which have led to my brain getting wired Neo-Aristotelian instead. Which means that about half of what Aquinas has to say is rationally compelling (particularly the Third and Fifth Ways), so I fall quite squarely on the theistic side of agnosticism. I'm also fascinated by mysticism, so my theism puts down roots beyond the world of rationalism.

Christianity is... trickier. My relationship with the religion is a tangled knot, and it has been known to chase me down when I run away from it. Other religions don't do that. ^_^ Christianity is also the only religion with an answer to human suffering and the Problem of Evil that I find acceptable--any god who would not choose to suffer alongside Creation in order to finally redeem it is not good in any meaningful sense, as far as I'm concerned. In the absence of the Christian revelation, I'm pushed to a form of moral relativism, since all of our intuitions about what is right and what is wrong are vindicated in the Resurrection. Without that sort of mirror, we have no way of objectively knowing if our moral compass is pointing north or not. Or if there even is a north. Or a compass!

I would like to be able to quote C.S. Lewis and say that I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. I can't, because I'm not actually sure the sun has risen at all, but if any religion is true, I do believe it's Christianity. This doesn't make me atheistic about other religions, though--they'd be like the moon, reflecting a light that's not inherently theirs.
 
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Dirk1540

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--the idea that the human mind is no more equipped to answer questions about the human condition and the ultimate nature of reality than a mouse would be to solve algebraic equations. I suspect that this is true, but feel that it's a self-refuting form of naturalism--you can't claim that human knowledge is limited and then cling dogmatically to a metaphysical position that reduces reality to the limits of scientific understanding.
I like that one a lot. I'm gonna have to steal it sometime in the future!!
 
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