How did the universe come into existence?

Moral Orel · Apr 21, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Well, there is this:

St_Worm2 said:
Perhaps I should also add:

You're missing an important distinction. What Jack said was, "...nothing to suggest the physical universe could not..." but you seem to be thinking he meant "...nothing to suggest the physical universe did not...". Jack's a Christian, so I'm sure he agrees with you about what you two believe actually happened, but he's pointing out that you need to demonstrate that your beliefs are the only beliefs that are possible.

St_Worm2 · Apr 21, 2017

JackRT said:
If we can envision a God that has existed from eternity then there is absolutely nothing to suggest the physical universe could not have existed from eternity as well.

Hi Nicholas, I apologize if I wasn't clear. Jack said that there is nothing to suggest that our universe could not have existed from eternity, just like God. However, I beg to differ, since the Bible tells us otherwise from the opening verse of Genesis .. Genesis 1:1, through Revelation.

To say that the universe is from, "eternity", is to suggest that, like God, it has no beginning and, therefore, was not created. But that directly contradicts what the Bible teaches us, doesn't it! Rather, the Bible tells us that our universe 1) had a beginning and 2) has a Creator .. which means it could not be "from everlasting" (like God is), if the Bible is correct

According to the Bible, God ALWAYS existed. Our universe on the other hand, has not (since God "created" it ).

Hopefully that explains it a little better. If I'm still missing something however, please let me know and I'll try again

Yours in Christ,
David

Revelation 4
11 Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.
.

Moral Orel · Apr 21, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Nicholas, I apologize if I wasn't clear. Jack said that there is nothing to suggest that our universe could not have existed from eternity, just like God. However, I beg to differ, since the Bible tells us otherwise from the opening verse of Genesis .. Genesis 1:1.

To say that the universe is from, "eternity", is to suggest that, like God, it has no beginning and, therefore, was not created. But that directly contradicts what the Bible teaches us, doesn't it! Rather, the Bible tells us that our universe 1) had a beginning and 2) has a Creator .. which means it could not be "from everlasting" (like God is), if the Bible is correct

According to the Bible, God ALWAYS existed, our universe, which He created, has not

Hopefully that explains it a little better. If I'm still missing something however, please let me know and I'll try again

Yours in Christ,
David

If we were to accept as a premise that "everything the Bible says is true" then your point would work. And, although I believe that Jack does agree with that statement (at least at it's core, various interpretations and nit-picking about details aside) I believe he was "playing Devil's Advocate" for the side that does not accept "everything the Bible says is true" as a true premise.

Some approaches to Apologetics comes from the direction of proving the Bible is true first. Some approaches to Apologetics comes from the direction of proving a god exists first. The context of this thread is the latter approach. So before we start looking at Bible verses, we would first need to show evidence that the claims in the Bible are true, but that isn't really the direction this thread is coming from.

So without mixing in a whole bunch of arguments about whether the Bible is true or not, Jack is stating that if we can conceive of something being eternal (God) then we can conceive of other things being eternal (the universe) and we would need evidence to rule out the latter. You're right that the Bible claims the latter is ruled out, but that isn't the evidence, it's just the claim.

JackRT · Apr 21, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Nicholas, I apologize if I wasn't clear. Jack said that there is nothing to suggest that our universe could not have existed from eternity, just like God. However, I beg to differ, since the Bible tells us otherwise from the opening verse of Genesis .. Genesis 1:1, through Revelation.

To say that the universe is from, "eternity", is to suggest that, like God, it has no beginning and, therefore, was not created. But that directly contradicts what the Bible teaches us, doesn't it! Rather, the Bible tells us that our universe 1) had a beginning and 2) has a Creator .. which means it could not be "from everlasting" (like God is), if the Bible is correct

According to the Bible, God ALWAYS existed. Our universe on the other hand, has not (since God "created" it ).

Hopefully that explains it a little better. If I'm still missing something however, please let me know and I'll try again

Yours in Christ,
David

Revelation 4
11 Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.
.

To be honest, I do not know which of the two scenarios is ultimately true nor do I believe it is a salvation issue. It is clear what the various Bible writers thought but far from convincing. However the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang Theory are convincing. It is also not clear whether the Big Bang was a creation event or if the universe existed in some form prior that gave rise to the Big Bang.

St_Worm2 · Apr 21, 2017

Nicholas Deka said:
If we were to accept as a premise that "everything the Bible says is true" then your point would work. And, although I believe that Jack does agree with that statement (at least at it's core, various interpretations and nit-picking about details aside) I believe he was "playing Devil's Advocate" for the side that does not accept "everything the Bible says is true" as a true premise.

Some approaches to Apologetics comes from the direction of proving the Bible is true first. Some approaches to Apologetics comes from the direction of proving a god exists first. The context of this thread is the latter approach. So before we start looking at Bible verses, we would first need to show evidence that the claims in the Bible are true, but that isn't really the direction this thread is coming from.

So without mixing in a whole bunch of arguments about whether the Bible is true or not, Jack is stating that if we can conceive of something being eternal (God) then we can conceive of other things being eternal (the universe) and we would need evidence to rule out the latter. You're right that the Bible claims the latter is ruled out, but that isn't the evidence, it's just the claim.

Hi again Nicholas, yes, that's true, but no matter what you believe, reliable "evidence" in this particular case, is more than a little hard to come by (don't you think )?

What "evidence" can you offer for one of the other theories concerning the beginning of all things? (if there was a beginning, that is ) The latter theory is what our OP author, being a Mormon, would espouse, that ALL THINGS have ALWAYS existed, and that God is the "Rearranger" of all these things (and the "Creator" of nothing).

Yours and His,
David

Aman777 · Apr 21, 2017

ToddNotTodd said:
Or perhaps none of that is true.

It's true to God's Holy Word which no man can refute, since it happened Billions of years before the beginning of our Cosmos.

Aman777 · Apr 21, 2017

JackRT said:
It is also not clear whether the Big Bang was a creation event or if the universe existed in some form prior that gave rise to the Big Bang.

Actually, God made 3 Heavens/worlds before the end of the 3rd Day. He made Adam's firmament or boundary of his world on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 Lord God also made other "heavenS" on the 3rd Day, Gen 2:4 the SAME Day Adam's Earth was made. Gen 1:10 The Big Bang of our Cosmos was late on the 3rd Day because it was less than a Billion years until the first Stars lit up on the 4th Day. Gen 1:16

ToddNotTodd · Apr 21, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again Nicholas, yes, that's true, but no matter what you believe, reliable "evidence" in this particular case, is more than a little hard to come by (don't you think )?

What "evidence" can you offer for one of the other theories concerning the beginning of all things? (if there was a beginning, that is ) The latter theory is what our OP author, being a Mormon, would espouse, that ALL THINGS have ALWAYS existed, and that God is the "Rearranger" of all these things (and the "Creator" of nothing).

Yours and His,
David

I think there's not enough evidence for any position to believe anything. Some apologists, William Lane Craig being one of them, cherry pick scientific statements and use them to try and make the case that their viewpoint should be believed. I'm sure some overzealous people on the opposite side of the aisle do the same thing.

Seems to me the intellectually honest answer is "I don't know".

ToddNotTodd · Apr 21, 2017

Aman777 said:
It's true to God's Holy Word which no man can refute, since it happened Billions of years before the beginning of our Cosmos.

What you wrote isn't evidence that what you believe to be true is actually true.

Aman777 · Apr 21, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
According to the Bible, God ALWAYS existed. Our universe on the other hand, has not (since God "created" it ).

Amen. God the invisible Spirit, like the perfect Heaven, had no beginning and will have no end. That's WHY the 7th Day has no morning and no evening.

Our Cosmos, on the other hand, was made the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4

Gen 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens (Plural) and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, (Plural)

Adam's Earth was made the 3rd Day. Gen 1:10 Adam's "heaven" was made the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8 Other "heavens" were also made on the 3rd Day. IOW, our 2nd Heaven, which will be burned, was made on the 3rd Day. It's temporary.

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Nicholas Deka said:
So if it lacks aim, or if it lacks a reason, or if it lacks a pattern, it's random.

"Aim" kind of makes it redundant. Since aim implies a purpose, which requires an intelligence, then of course it would lack aim without there being a God. You might as well ask, "Are there any options for the universe coming to existence other than God or not God?".

"Reason" can easily imply the same thing as "aim". Of course it could be said that the universe came into existence because of, say, a quantum fluctuation. So there it has a reason. Unless you mean "reason" like you mean "aim", and that is to imply purpose. So again it would be, yes, the universe either exists because God created it or not because God created it.

Pattern though, is a bit different. If there is only one universe, then there can't be a pattern. It isn't really a valid question to ask of it. Just like we wouldn't say the existence of God doesn't follow a pattern. It is singular. If there is a multiverse, then it would be difficult to determine if there is some overlying pattern in the way that universes pop into existence. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

I think "random chance" might be a bad way to phrase it. It doesn't apply well to offer a distinction between created and naturally occurring.

Why don't you just phrase it the way you wish, then you will feel better.

I am just looking for all ways that the universe could come into existence. Tell me how many ways you think that could have happened. That's all. Thanks.

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Uber Genius said:
There is a problem with option number 1 stated above.

What would random chance be impacting?

There is No:

1 - Space
2 - Time
3 - Matter
4 - Energy
5 - Laws of Nature

The presocratic philosophers gave us a maxim that still holds today, "ex nihilo nihil fit (in Latin rather than Greek), out of nothing nothing comes."

While a immaterial, all-powerful being is an option, science which is the empirical study of items 1-5 above will never give us an alternative inference due to its knowledge limitations to a physical world. But there may be some other causal inference thamcomes from philosophy.

If #1 is problematic, then is there any other possibilities you can think of as to what caused the universe to come into existence. God, of course is 1 answer.

ToddNotTodd · Apr 21, 2017

Peter1000 said:
If #1 is problematic, then is there any other possibilities you can think of as to what caused the universe to come into existence. God, of course is 1 answer.

Why do you think this is a reasonable answer?

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Gene Parmesan said:
I can only think of one reasonable answer. We don't know yet.

That is actually a 3rd option for me. So thank you for your answer.

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Aman777 said:
God the Trinity changed some of the energy in His world into physical matter in our heaven/universe. In just 6 of His Days/Ages, He will produce a perfect physical Heaven filled with perfect physical mankind who will live forever with Him. His name is Jesus and He is the only God ever formed or that ever will be formed physically. Isa 43:11

Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So you are agreeing that God had to be the one that created the universe.

Is there any other possiblilites for you?

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

expos4ever said:
I agree with another poster in the sense that I think we can add a third option: the existence of the universe cannot be understood by us.

That is a 3rd option. Thanks

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
"Randomness" don't compute!

The TRI-UNE God from heaven is the Great Designer and Creator. EVERYTHING was created by His perfect WILL. And He is not dead nor doth he sleep. He continues to INTERVENE in EVERYTHING

So for you there are no other possibilities?

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF in the Bible
PLUS
common sense LOGIC...=

some understanding of the "mystery".

What are purposes and origins of Mankind? The Universe?

Good questions, but off topic. Is there another possibility other than God that you can think of for the universe coming into existence?

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

JackRT said:
On the face of it that sounds logical but it applies just as equally to the spiritual realm as it does to the physical. If we can envision a God that has existed from eternity then there is absolutely nothing to suggest the physical universe could not have existed from eternity as well.

Good reply and thank you for it, but for you, is there any other way, other than God, that the universe came into existence?

Peter1000 · Apr 21, 2017

Aman777 said:
The invisible Spirit of Love has always been but not physically. The creation story begins when this Spirit speaks matter into being physically, apart from Himself and anything apart from God contains death or darkness. Then, God Himself, came into the physical world as the Light of the first Day, the Light of mankind and the Light of Heaven. He's the only God ever formed physically and His name is Jesus.

IOW, Jesus IS God incarnate, in physical form, and the ONLY God you will ever see.

Thank you, but other than God, is there any other way for you that the universe came into existence?

How did the universe come into existence?

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