How did demons get so evil?

[The Liturgist]

I do not believe in an inspired tradition. It can be useful, it can be truthtul here and there, but it can also be mistaken in various things, because its just human tradition.

But its off-topic to this thread, so just this short note.

Respectfully, the role of tradition is directly relevant, when we are basing doctrines on a specific interpretation of a book most churches reject as canonical.

That being said I have provided the answer to the question asked in the OP according to Sola Scriptura, both taking 1 Enoch into account and setting it aside, and using a purely Antiochene literal exegesis, even though I consider that 1 Enoch should not be interpreted solely using Antiochene Criteria. I have also answered according to Church Tradition, and according to all three criteria of the Anglican tripod (Scripture, Tradition, Reason) and all four of tne Wesleyan quadrilateral (Scripture, Tradition, Reason and the Experience of the Church).

And on the last respect, setting aside the scriptural proof I have provided, which is exegetically obvious when read in the totality of all verses in canonical scripture dealing with demons, with or without 1 Enoch, it is the experience of the Church that they are diabolical. And indeed there is no possible exegesis of the New Testament that does not leave the demons in the worst possible light.

Consider: they are so hateful and destructive that when allowed to possess a herd of swine, they drove them into the water. They posed as deities, according to Psalm 95:5, they logically and scripturally are messengers of Satan, and thus are condemned with him and the reprobates in Matthew 25:41, and in addition to these facts, which should be sufficient to satisfy the question, these horrible monstrous destructive entities, which have made themselves abominable through acting in league with the devil, both through choosing evil in and of themselves and through actual alignment, as demonstrated by the desire they share with the devil to be worshipped, hence their false personation of deities (“The gods of the gentiles are demons”), they also were also held responsible in the New Testament for various maladies, disturbed behavior, extreme violence and aggression, violation of the autonomy of the humans and animals they possessed, and the causation of various physical maladies.

The experience of the Church is that they are maximally deceitful and dangerous, that they will trick, lure or cajole humans into killing themselves or harming others, and hence all things demonic should be completely avoided.

 

[trophy33]

No evidence? Or do you mean only no scientific evidence? Or what?

Biblical evidence.

 

[The Liturgist]

Biblical evidence.

But there is Scriptural evidence, which I have provided, in spades.

 

[Mark Quayle]

friend of said: ↑
Can it just be a given that demons do hate God?

Even though there is no evidence for it?

Biblical evidence

Right off: "John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

Satan is the enemy of God: Matthew 13:38-39 the field is the world; and the good seed–these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil.

Do the demons not serve the Devil in Scripture? Do they not oppose God at every opportunity?

We have no evidence (Biblical or otherwise) that they are given opportunity or are otherwise able to repent, and so they know their end, and reason says that they must therefore hate God. Does the Bible not show that sin is their speciality? And he that sins is at enmity with God.

 

[TedT]

What made them go from bad, to worse, to even worse?

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts) the whole (person) lump of dough.

1 Corinthians 5:5-7 ...Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

The willingness to succumb to the enslavement of our evil desires grows until the whole person, city and country is fully leavened in evil...unless the Holy Spirit intercedes.

Satan proved himself to be fully leavened in evil by monstering the most holy old man in the world and his family just because YHWH spoke well of him...yet some people still believe in sympathy for him as misunderstood.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ah where did you get that?

Beginning with Job 38 we see the entire heavenly host celebrating earth's creation, prior to the fall of Lucifer, prior to man.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This was their "first estate" and "habitation" referenced in Jude. This is where they ascended from along with Lucifer, and this is where they were cast back down to. And this is where they are now.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's drawing a very long bow i'd say, arrived at by assuming much.
For that matter I'm prone to think that angels could just as easily picnic on the moons of Jupiter as frolic on the martian surface and travel to any part of the physical universe they care to so i doubt the earth was created for them.

See post #66

 

[Petros2015]

What made them go from bad, to worse, to even worse?

This is the natural progression for all things absent repentance
And they've been around for a long
long
time

The more you have to repent of
The less likely you are to repent
And the more you are likely to self-justify
And demonize the thing calling you to it
Or someone else...
Satan is sometimes called "the Accuser"

No one ever got better
By confessing the sins
Of others

 

[The Liturgist]

Beginning with Job 38 we see the entire heavenly host celebrating earth's creation, prior to the fall of Lucifer, prior to man.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This was their "first estate" and "habitation" referenced in Jude. This is where they ascended from along with Lucifer, and this is where they were cast back down to. And this is where they are now.

Oh yes of course, you confused me by calling it “eden” but you of course placed “eden” in quotes, so please forgive me, I see that we are of one accord.

 

[Sorn]

Beginning with Job 38 we see the entire heavenly host celebrating earth's creation, prior to the fall of Lucifer, prior to man.

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I'd imagine that the entire heavenly host would celebrate anything that God creates. Doesn't mean its for them. You are assuming way too much.
When all the saved are in heaven we too will celebrate anything God creates, regardless of who its for, celebrating God is kind of the thing to do in heaven, don't you know.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'd imagine that the entire heavenly host would celebrate anything that God creates. Doesn't mean its for them. You are assuming way too much.
When all the saved are in heaven we too will celebrate anything God creates, regardless of who its for, celebrating God is kind of the thing to do in heaven, don't you know.

I agree entirely with your post. I have to comment, as a friendly and amusing askde, that You sound rathah Edwardian my Australian friend with the classic “don’t you know”, which has always struck me as the kind of upper received pronunciation kind of phrase that goes well with top hats and coat tails. But yeah I do see Commonwealth people, mainly Brits, typing “donchaknow” fairly frequently. But you’re the first I’ve seen use it on CF.com, so cheers.

 

[trophy33]

But there is Scriptural evidence, which I have provided, in spades.

friend of said: ↑
Can it just be a given that demons do hate God?





Right off: "John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

Satan is the enemy of God: Matthew 13:38-39 the field is the world; and the good seed–these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil.

Do the demons not serve the Devil in Scripture? Do they not oppose God at every opportunity?

We have no evidence (Biblical or otherwise) that they are given opportunity or are otherwise able to repent, and so they know their end, and reason says that they must therefore hate God. Does the Bible not show that sin is their speciality? And he that sins is at enmity with God.

You say you are giving evidence for demons hating God, but you are giving only verses that say various different things, most of them not talking about demons at all.

You add your ideas to them or connections that may or may not be there.

Doing evil things does not equal hating God - if you do not want to say that all people hate God, too.

Fearing God does not equal hating God, either.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You say you are giving evidence for demons hating God, but you are giving only verses that say various different things, most of them not talking about demons at all.

You add your ideas to them or connections that may or may not be there.

Doing evil things does not equal hating God - if you do not want to say that all people hate God, too.

Fearing God does not equal hating God, either.

Enmity with God does not equal hating God?

 

[Sorn]

Enmity with God does not equal hating God?

If a person does something evil, they may be doing it for purely selfish reasons and not because its how they express a hatred of God.

 

[trophy33]

Enmity with God does not equal hating God?

I am not sure what verse you have in mind.

But generally, no. I even wonder why you think it does.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oh yes of course, you confused me by calling it “eden” but you of course placed “eden” in quotes, so please forgive me, I see that we are of one accord.

Maybe not. The original Eden was the original earth created for the angels. I shouldn't have used semi quotes (sic might have been better). The narrative in Ezekiel suggests that the Eden mentioned was part of the original creation, not the re-creation of Genesis One.

Ezekiel 28:12-14
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ok well I guess @Mark Quayle and I, along with the Roman Catholic contributors to this thread and a few other members, are the only ones who I think have a position that meets the test of Scripture, Tradition and Reason. I would also ask my friends @bekkilyn @MarkRohfrietsch @Andrewn and especially, due to the connections their traditions have with the Desert Fathers following in the footsteps of St. Anthony the Great and St. Paul the Hermit in Egypt, and later Syria and Judaea, and Ireland, where the Desert Fathers were influential, and other monastics like St. Ignatius of Brianchaninov and St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and the monks of the Kiev Lavra with great expertise in this area, my Eastern and Oriental Orthodox friends @Greek Orthodox @prodromos @dzheremi and @Pavel Mosko what they think on the issue. And likewise my Roman Catholic friend#@chevyontheriver and @Buzzard3 because the Roman Catholic Church together with the Orthodox and Assyrians probably exorcises the most demons in terms of normal operations, and the Catholics tend to have some priests who specialize in that field.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'd imagine that the entire heavenly host would celebrate anything that God creates. Doesn't mean its for them. You are assuming way too much.
When all the saved are in heaven we too will celebrate anything God creates, regardless of who its for, celebrating God is kind of the thing to do in heaven, don't you know.

I think my assumption is supported by scripture. That it has not been addressed by scholars over the centuries notwithstanding. I offer it only to for the sake of conversation. The bible is famously scant on details in some narratives so I apply what I deem reasonable assumptions to weave these stories together.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What made them go from bad, to worse, to even worse?

I'm a big fan of some of the Second Temple Judaism studies going on the last 10 years or more from people like Protestant Biblical Semitist Michael Heiser, Eastern Orthodox theologian Steven De Young and a few others.


There some interesting point from this study.

1) Earlier Judaism didn't see man's slide into corruption as just being based on the Fall of early Genesis Adam and Eve but sort of a process that also involved the events that led to the Great Flood and the Tower of Babel and it's aftermath as well.


2) Classical Theology tend to see "evil" in terms of the absence of good rather than a thing in and of itself. But I guess an easy answer to that would be that would be something that would come about from being separated from God the more corrupt you would become.


And thanks to the @The Liturgist for tipping me of about the thread, because I like these big idea threads. Look forward to reading all the posts later on.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What made them go from bad, to worse, to even worse?

Well I would add some more speculative theology to the mix.


1) There was a really great Eastern Orthodox article I read years ago very thought provoking and informative. It seemed to imply a very dogmatic stance that seems to be rejected by the Eastern Orthodox of this web site, as not representing what they believe, taught etc.

The article was written in regards to things like Origenism, Universal Salvation etc. and mentioned the difference between angels and humans. It claimed that there was a big difference between angels and humans. It claimed that humans have free will, but angels don't they were allowed a choice after their creation, but have been "eternally vouchsafed" ever since while we humans do have free will and that comes from our unique creation as shown in Genesis being created in God's Image (In the Hebrew motif the origins of something show it's nature). Anyway the nature of free will of the angels is something that CFI EO especially Father Matt of the Ancient Way disagrees with.


I find it an interesting idea, not sure what to think about it, but do agree on the basic Hebraism about the background creation, birth or origins as being indicative of it's nature at least as an ancient narrative meta trope that touches on a number of other kinds of tropes (foreshadowing, microcosm/macrocosm, the divine right of the King, etc.)



2) A friend of mine has mentioned that God is not the only one "in the disciple making business". Satan also wants to make disciples. He is a bit like Morgoth the god of evil in the Tolkien / Lord of the Rings universe, who created the orcs, goblins, and trolls by mutating the existing creation of elves, dwarves, humans etc. So this gets into the other end of what is normally called theosis see the below link for the positive side.


But in general Satan's attempts to pervert humanity and to become more vile is part of his general war with God. Sometimes it appears that Satan thinks he might be able to thwart God the way you might get the better of a pagan god in the myths' or maybe how Jonah thought he could escape God's power in reach in the first part of his story. But I think people often have trouble grasping or believing in God's infinite capabilities and attributes like how people are frequently successfully tempted at believing that God has forgotten them in their personal trials etc.