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How did apes evolvle into humans?

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Carico

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mikeynov said:
Basically, you don't understand how it could happen, therefore conclude it didn't.

But it's not that complicated.

Observe the following, which is the standard dogma of genetics:

DNA<-->DNA-->RNA-->protein-->trait

Mutations (which provide an innate variability to all life, and are largely a result of copying errors of DNA) happen at the level of DNA.

Now, "mutation" doesn't mean "makes a monster." Mutation is some change to the DNA - the addition, deletion, or changing of nucleotides in DNA, which are the basic building blocks of nucleic acids (DNA and RNA).

Selection will act at the level of "trait" if the trait in question has a basis in DNA. Selection just describes a process of induced differential reproductive success - some organisms with a particular genetic makeup tend to pass on that genetic material better than other organisms, based on particular criteria.

What is that criteria? Different organisms live in different environments. Within a given environment, any particular organism has a "job" in respect to its overall place in a community. That "job" (called an ecological niche) describes what they're eating, where they live, how they're interacting with other organisms and each other etc. New jobs come and go, old jobs are lost, changed hands, etc. There's all sorts of stuff that can cause this, but these are the background factors and the basis by which nature "selects" organisms most suited towards a particular role.

So, natural selection is steered by the above - if a trait in a particular organism is advantageous towards a particular niche (job) in nature, that organism is more likely to reproduce and pass on its genetic material to the subsequent generation.

Over time, this process shapes the "gene pool" that represents a given population. From one generation to the next, the change you're going to see will be fairly subtle. So it's not like one organism is born with a radically different genetic code, he's super organism, and then passes on his super genetic material to the next generation. I have to stress that the change from one generation to the next is almost always subtle - it's when that change cumulates over deep time that you notice "big" changes.

The overall size of the gene pool during this process may increase, decrease, or stay relatively the same. But the overall pool is "changing," thus it's fair to define evolution as "a change in allele (versions of a gene) frequency in some population over time." I repeat - this "change over time" of that gene pool IS evolution, and it's adaptive because nature is steering that process. It's ensuring that genetic material which is advantageous for individual organisms is propagated at a higher frequency than less advantageous genetic material.

This combined with the description offered to Carico above is evolution in a nutshell. It might be hard to see how all these changes can add up, but that is EXACTLY what happened. All known evidence confirms this reality, and while it might at first seem counter-intuitive, mindful study of the subject will lead you to this conclusion.

Edit: if you're further confused how a population undergoing all this change manages to "make it," consider the fact that the vast majority of creatures that ever lived are extinct. So most "don't make it." The organisms you see in the world around you are the ones (or descendents of those) that did "make it."

Finally, someone is addressing my question. The only problem is that mutation cannot produce genes that are not already present in the cell. And that is where the theory that evolution happens through mutation goes awry. Mutation can only happen to genes that are already present in the cell. Otherwise, scientists would simply let cancer cells mutate into healthy cells. And that is why a dog cannot produce a bull because the genes of a bull are not present in the DNA of a dog. This is basic reproduction. Mutatiojn is an aberration that reduces the quality of the cell instead of the spontaneous appearance of new genes in the cell. If that happened, then my husband & I are just as likely to produce an offspring that is as different from us as a homonid is from its parents. But we can't and neither can any other human being.

All animals can produce is offspring from the genes already present in their DNA. And that's why it's called reproduction. Reproduction is species reproducing themselves, not producing offspring that eventually becomes another species as evolutionists claim. Again, that has never been observed to happen to any species in recorded history.
 
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mikeynov

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Finally, someone is addressing my question. The only problem is that mutation cannot produce genes that are not already present in the cell. And that is where the theory that evolution happens through mutation goes awry. Mutation can only happen to genes that are already present in the cell.

Two points:

1) Mutations can add nucleotides, thus adding to the total size of an organism's genome by definition.

2) Genes can be duplicated and diverge. That means whole new genes can form. And this pattern of formation of new genes leads to "gene" families, which is an area that's heavily studied in comparative genomics.

We have examples of both of the above happening within research, so your basic point is wrong here. And it's important to understand why it's wrong.

Otherwise, scientists would simply let cancer cells mutate into healthy cells. And that is why a dog cannot produce a bull because the genes of a bull are not present in the DNA of a dog. This is basic reproduction. Mutatiojn is an aberration that reduces the quality of the cell instead of the spontaneous appearance of new genes in the cell. If that happened, then my husband & I are just as likely to produce an offspring that is as different from us as a homonid is from its parents. But we can't and neither can any other human being.

Repeat after me - mutations ARE (largely) due to copying errors during replication. But they are just "changes to DNA." That change can involve "new nucleotides," which are the building blocks of DNA. Similarly, gene duplication can account for large amounts of genetic material appearing in a genome from one generation to the next.

All animals can produce is offspring from the genes already present in their DNA. And that's why it's called reproduction. Reproduction is species reproducing themselves, not producing offspring that eventually becomes another species as evolutionists claim. Again, that has never been observed to happen to any species in recorded history.

Again, replicative errors during the process of reproduction can lead towards an increase in total amount of genetic material from one generation to the next. This isn't blind conjecture, we've seen it happen.
 
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Carico

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JimmyKoKoPop said:
More and more, I'm failing to see the point of arguing how evolution works to Carico... Can any of you explain why you still try? :p

You apparently believe that a primate "just turned into a human being" without explaining how. Sorry, kokopop, but offspring don't "just appear." They come from the DNA of their parents. And until you understand basic reproduction, neither will you be able to uderstand deeper matters.
 
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mikeynov

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nvxplorer said:
Heidi is on the loose. I'm taking cover.

(An obsession with sperm and ova is not healthy, Heidi.)

Just out of curiosity, is what I wrote cogent/clear? I ask because I'm hoping people can follow what I'm trying to convey, while bearing in mind that I'm not remotely an expert on the subject.
 
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mikeynov

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Carico said:
You apparently believe that a primate "just turned into a human being" without explaining how. Sorry, kokopop, but offspring don't "just appear." They come from the DNA of their parents. And until you understand basic reproduction, neither will you be able to uderstand deeper matters.

Evolution does happen on the level of a whole population, though. Since there's gene flow (genetic material getting passed all around), what happens to the population obviously applies to the individual members of that population.

So as the overall gene pool changes over time, so do individuals reflect this change. This is critical step #1 in understanding what's being proposed for evolution (even if you steadfastly disagree with its reality).
 
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nvxplorer

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mikeynov said:
Just out of curiosity, is what I wrote cogent/clear? I ask because I'm hoping people can follow what I'm trying to convey, while bearing in mind that I'm not remotely an expert on the subject.
It's not you, Mike.

Carico is Heidi from another Christian site. It's impossible to describe her posts without sounding offensive, which isn't my intent.

I've read numerous posts of hers, and not a single one expressed an original thought. It's the same ol' same ol'; ape giving birth to a human, great dane giving birth to a chihuahua, procreation this, procreation that...

Her errors have been explained by probably dozens of people, hundreds of times. You can type until your fingers are raw; you won't make any headway.
 
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mikeynov

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nvxplorer said:
It's not you, Mike.

Carico is Heidi from another Christian site. It's impossible to describe her posts without sounding offensive, which isn't my intent.

I've read numerous posts of hers, and not a single one expressed an original thought. It's the same ol' same ol'; ape giving birth to a human, great dane giving birth to a chihuahua, procreation this, procreation that...

Her errors have been explained by probably dozens of people, hundreds of times. You can type until your fingers are raw; you won't make any headway.

Well, I meant in general, though. The issue of individuals vs. populations and such comes up so much that I'm actually saving what I'm writing, will probably refine it, and will use it as a stock answer in the future. So I wanted feedback in terms of the readability of what I wrote, and if I made any errors. :p
 
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Carico

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mikeynov said:


Two points:

1) Mutations can add nucleotides, thus adding to the total size of an organism's genome by definition.

2) Genes can be duplicated and diverge. That means whole new genes can form. And this pattern of formation of new genes leads to "gene" families, which is an area that's heavily studied in comparative genomics.

We have examples of both of the above happening within research, so your basic point is wrong here. And it's important to understand why it's wrong.



Repeat after me - mutations ARE (largely) due to copying errors during replication. But they are just "changes to DNA." That change can involve "new nucleotides," which are the building blocks of DNA. Similarly, gene duplication can account for large amounts of genetic material appearing in a genome from one generation to the next.



Again, replicative errors during the process of reproduction can lead towards an increase in total amount of genetic material from one generation to the next. This isn't blind conjecture, we've seen it happen.

So then why hasn't any species produced offspring as different from themselves as a homonid is from its parents in recorded history? And why haven't human beings produced offspring as different from themselves as a homid is from its parents? But we haven't. Again, humans keep producing humans and each animal reproduces itself which is why it's called reproduction.

So the theory of evolution completely contradicts the reproductive process and actually claims that we can produce different species. And that is how they claim that humans came from primates which is absolutely absurd. And all of this just to say there is no God. But the way animals & humans reproduce conforms perfectly to biblical accounts of creation and reproduction. "Be fruitful and increase in number" which is exactly what's happened.

Humans are no more superior today than they have been since recorded history. In fact, we're alot dumber. If there was a huge power outage, people wouldn't even begin to know how to survive. Without calculators, most present-day mathemeticianswould barely know how to do multiplication tables in their heads and most people wouldn't even know how to milk a cow. Yet thousands of years ago, people relied on their own abilities instead of relying on machines. We are also closer to annihilating ourselves than ever before and there is more famine, disease, STD's, greed, lust & pride than ever before in history. So no, we are not evolving. Reality shows that we are, as many scientists say, in a state of decay.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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he only problem is that mutation cannot produce genes that are not already present in the cell.
Yes it can, it happens when strands of DNA are duplicated twice or when viral insertions happen in the genome. Happens all the time.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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So then why hasn't any species produced offspring as different from themselves as a homonid is from its parents in recorded history? And why haven't human beings produced offspring as different from themselves as a homid is from its parents? But we haven't. Again, humans keep producing humans and each animal reproduced itself which is why it's called reproduction.

So the theory of evolution completely contradicts the reproductive process and actually claims that we can produce different species. And that is how they claim that humans came from primates which is absolutely absurd. And all of this just to say there is no God. But the way animals & humans reproduce conforms perfectly to biblical accounts of creation and reproduction. "Be fruitful and increase in number" which is exactly what's happend.

Humans are no more superior today than they have been since recorded history. In fact, we're alot dumber. If there was a huge power outage, people wouldn't even begin to know how to survive. Without calculators, most present-day mathemeticianswould barely know how to do multiplication tables in their heads and most people wouldn't even know how to milk a cow. Yet thousands of years ago, peolpe relied on their own abilities instead of relying on machines. AWe are alos closer to annihilating ourselves than ever before and there is more famine, disease, STD's, greed, lust & pride than ever beforef in history. So no, we are not evolving. Reality shows that we are, as many scientists say, in a state of decay.


New ifferent species have evolved from existing species. It has been observed and recorded. I have posted this link for you before, but you have ignored it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
 
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Carico, do you believe all languages were specially created or did they evolve from a set of stock languages?

Remember, she does not even believe that different dog breeds could have come into existance . SHe is the one who claimed that "great danes do not give birth to chihuahuas".
 
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