How common is this sort of thing in charismatic churches?

[look]

Hey ChurchBoy, relax, will ya? If Jesus walked through walls after His ressurection and then ATE fish, then how hard can it be to see that angels can also do the same things? Did not Jesus and two angels eat with Abraham just before Sodom and Gomorrah got wiped off the map? How did the outbreak of death even happen, when David prayed and repented to God to stop it?

I'm saying that you are still thinking in the manner of the world's ways and are still carnal in your vision, not that you are a carnal christian, although you have proved that to anybody reading these posts...

Don't get mad at me, just open the aperture of your heart and let the light in, see if these things are so, don't keep your spiritual eyes shut like you just did.

Can you tell me how Elijah was able to get on that angelic chariot if spiritual (read that higher dimension) beings (or things) cannot interact with this physical (read that lower dimension) world?

Did you know that theoretical quantum mechanics say that you can stand in one space, manifesting the dimensional attribute you have (4) and that there are more dimensions in that same space that are inaccessable to you? This means that entities with a higher dimensional attribute can co-exist in the same space as you are occupying...

If you are not ready to see this, then I won't do you the disservice of trying to cram this down your throat, rather, I will not respond to you for the sake of forebearing one another and patience, in walking in love...

May the Light of our Lord Jesus shine on us all...

 

[hal]

Remember the Nephelim that married the human women and raised giants?

 

[ChurchBoy]

look,

I am very relaxed. . I am not mad at you at all. I apologize if you thought my post was "tense". That was not my intention at all. I am sorry.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and the Creator. I think we are misunderstanding each other. Jesus Can do things that angels and demons can't.

Angels and demons are not the same. God does give angels physical form for them to perform a specific task. There are many examples in Scripture. However angels and demons are spiritual beings. They were not created with physical bodies.

The episode with Elijah has nothing to do with this discussion. I never said the the spiritual realm doesn't interact with the physical realm. They obviously do or else people wouldn't come under demonic attack.

Theoritcal quantum mechanics deals with sub-atomic particles and not bulk matter. The laws of quantum mechanics do not apply to bulk matter.

They only poiint I was trying to make is that demons do not physicality in the sense that they can move objects or bite people but they can tempt us to sin against God.

I know people get attacked by demons. How do I know? Becasue I seen the devasting effects of their actions. I've seen people influenced in such a way that they succumb to their own sinful desires. Demons can't make us sin but only tempt us.

A Brother in Christ,

ChurchBoy

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

You state that demons can be seen but you then say that you have never seen one. If a person truly repents and gives their life to Jesus Christ it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have demons. When a person receives the the gift os salvation the Holy Spirit indwells in that that person. So how can demons be present.

I use to believe that too ChurchBoy.

A person does not have to have a demon living in them to be controlled by them. People who continuiously fall into the same sins over and over are giving themselves over to demonic influence. When handled as such and the person is taught how to keep demonic influence out of their life there is dramatic changes.

Just because I personally have never, that I know of, seen a demon, I know others who have. And, being as I know them well, I trust their testimony. I'm not saying the demon has a physical body. . .but in the spirit. . they can be seen.

I don't quite understand the Buddist lady. Did the demons manifest through her? If she truly gave her life to Jesus then she cannot be demonized (if by "demonized" you mean being endwelled by evil spirits). She may still oppressed by spirits but she has assurance that through salvation she cannot be possessed.

Yes, the demons manifested through her. I won't go into all that happend because that only glorifies satan and he does not deserve it. Repentance brings us to the feet of Jesus and we receive His mercy and grace. It's at that point that He starts work on us. If we have given ourselves over to things that cause evil spirits to attach themselves to us. . .their grip is loosend but they do not necessarily leave unless the host makes it clear they are going.

Frequently, this can happen by going through deliverance, as this woman did. Also, getting the proper training and learning how to walk free and be no longer in bondage to sin. Modern Christianity tells people that they will continue to sin for the rest of their lives and does not teach them how to overcome vs being overcome. Therefore we have a lot Christians being defeated by the demonic influences they allow into their lives and being overcome by them.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

look,

They only poiint I was trying to make is that demons do not physicality in the sense that they can move objects or bite people but they can tempt us to sin against God.

What about those guys in Acts (sorry don't know exact scripture) who tried to cast demons out in the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches and the demons spoke out and said, "Jesus we know, and Paul we know, but who are you?". Then the demons proceeded to beat them up.

 

[ChurchBoy]

I use to believe that too ChurchBoy.

A person does not have to have a demon living in them to be controlled by them. People who continuiously fall into the same sins over and over are giving themselves over to demonic influence. When handled as such and the person is taught how to keep demonic influence out of their life there is dramatic changes.

We are in agreement here. It is because people listen to the demonic influence that they continue in sin. People have a sinful nature because of Adam and thus are drawn to sin. Demons tempt people to continue in their sin. However, a demon cannot force a person to sin. If a person has an issue with pride or sexual immorality a demon cannot make a person prideful or commit sexual immorality. The desire to be prideful or commit sexual sin is already in us. The demon can only tempt us, encourage us, deceive us, or lie to us.

Just because I personally have never, that I know of, seen a demon, I know others who have. And, being as I know them well, I trust their testimony. I'm not saying the demon has a physical body. . .but in the spirit. . they can be seen.

Agree 100%. This is spiritual discernment. We "see" with our "spiritual" eys not our "physical" eyes.

Yes, the demons manifested through her. I won't go into all that happend because that only glorifies satan and he does not deserve it. Repentance brings us to the feet of Jesus and we receive His mercy and grace. It's at that point that He starts work on us. If we have given ourselves over to things that cause evil spirits to attach themselves to us. . .their grip is loosend but they do not necessarily leave unless the host makes it clear they are going.

It sounds like this lady was oppressed by evil spirits but not possessed. I've witnessed people oppressed by evil spirits. Their lives always seem to be a struggle. If she was truly saved and endwelled by the Holy Spirit then a demon cannot possess her.

Frequently, this can happen by going through deliverance, as this woman did. Also, getting the proper training and learning how to walk free and be no longer in bondage to sin. Modern Christianity tells people that they will continue to sin for the rest of their lives and does not teach them how to overcome vs being overcome. Therefore we have a lot Christians being defeated by the demonic influences they allow into their lives and being overcome by them.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I think readjng God's Word, obedience to God, discipleship and prayer are keys to fending off demonic attacks. The important thing is not to battle with demonic forces directly but to turn away from the demonic influence and turn to God in prayer, obedience, and putting on the Armor of God. Jesus is our general when it comes to spiritual warfare. He will lead us to victory.

Ephesians 6:10-18

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Praise God!

ChurchBoy

 

[TransformedByGrace]

true, but they have been cast out in the glorious name of Jesus! and I have forgiven my parents for not doing it earlier, thanks for the advice...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It sounds like this lady was oppressed by evil spirits but not possessed. I've witnessed people oppressed by evil spirits. Their lives always seem to be a struggle. If she was truly saved and endwelled by the Holy Spirit then a demon cannot possess her.

It is very difficult to explain the difference between what you are thinking of (possession) and what I am thinking of (demonization). This lady WAS truly saved. She is endwelled by the Holy Spirit. But the demons she had given herself over to before were working their hardest to not leave their host.

They were not living in her but they had attached themselves to her and caused great torment. Her two young sons were also affected. The times that I saw them manifesting it was always during intense praise and worship.

By manifesting I mean: How the human flesh reacts to the reactions of the demons that are attached. And that is not necessarily controllable. The demons are not causing a scene so as to bring attention to themselves . . .the light of God is revealing them and they can't stand it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I think readjng God's Word, obedience to God, discipleship and prayer are keys to fending off demonic attacks. The important thing is not to battle with demonic forces directly but to turn away from the demonic influence and turn to God in prayer, obedience, and putting on the Armor of God. Jesus is our general when it comes to spiritual warfare. He will lead us to victory.

Scripture says, "draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you. Resist the devil and he will flee from you". Any form of drawing closer to God is going to bring resistance from the enemy.

You are correct in how to keep free once you are free. This woman had so many demons on her she needed help then. . .not over time as she learned how to draw near to God, so she could become strong enough to resist the devil.

That scripture was written to Christians. Obviously, it was written for a reason. . .and I think that reason was that there were people still being led around by their enemy instead of their Redeemer.

Praise God!

Praise God indeed!!! We are no longer subject to the thoughts and plans of our enemy. Jesus our Redeemer.

 

[ChurchBoy]

It is very difficult to explain the difference between what you are thinking of (possession) and what I am thinking of (demonization). This lady WAS truly saved. She is endwelled by the Holy Spirit. But the demons she had given herself over to before were working their hardest to not leave their host.

It seems what you call "demonization I am calling "oppression". I guess this is splitting hairs but I do have a question. Did this lady give herself over to demons or to sin, with the demons tempting her to sin?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It seems what you call "demonization I am calling "oppression". I guess this is splitting hairs but I do have a question. Did this lady give herself over to demons or to sin, with the demons tempting her to sin?

I don't know the details of why she was in the position she was in. Before coming to Christ she was Buddist. She worshipped other gods and followed them. She was deeply superstitious and her sons. . frequently were awakend during the night and they did see "things" "spirits" that terrified them. She exibited very bizarre behavior during worship.

Jesus appeared to her in a dream and told her who He was. She contacted several Pastors who refused to even talk with her because they thought she was a nut case. But my Pastor led her to the Lord and then began her deliverance. And today, she is the most joyful Christian I know. She can be seen bouncing through WalMart loving on everyone and telling about Jesus and what He did for her. She received Jesus into her heart and then she was delivered from demons.

If you cast demons out and the person rejects Jesus they are worse off than what they were. Cleaning a house of demons without filling it up with Jesus is dangerous for the cleaned house. When the demons try to return and find the house not filled (with Jesus) then they bring more back with them. Generally, in the church I attend, we lead people to Jesus first then cast out the demons.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A person does not have to have a demon living in them to be controlled by them. People who continuiously fall into the same sins over and over are giving themselves over to demonic influence.

Quite true Barbara...
One thing we are seeing, and this is expecially true with the advent of cable TV and the internet, is the oppression of the mind that comes by porn. People view this stuff and eventually their minds become clouded and oppressed by the sin and eventually evil spirits.
Back in the mid 90s we had a mailing list called "fresh air" which was dedicated to ministering to people who were being oppressed in this way. You would not believe how quickly the membership of that list grew!!!! It is a real thing that most believers are being tempted and oppressed with. But there is freedom and cleansing in Jesus.
Let the prayer of Paul be in our hearts and minds:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Quite true Barbara...
One thing we are seeing, and this is expecially true with the advent of cable TV and the internet, is the oppression of the mind that comes by porn. People view this stuff and eventually their minds become clouded and oppressed by the sin and eventually evil spirits.
Back in the mid 90s we had a mailing list called "fresh air" which was dedicated to ministering to people who were being oppressed in this way. You would not believe how quickly the membership of that list grew!!!! It is a real thing that most believers are being tempted and oppressed with. But there is freedom and cleansing in Jesus.
Let the prayer of Paul be in our hearts and minds:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

. . .And to add to that. . .the increase of promiscuity even amongst believers. We have people sleeping with people who've slept with people who've slept with people, and the list goes on. We become one flesh with whomever we sleep with. So in the process of all this sleeping around spirits are picked up of people that are not even known. . .picking up the spirit of each person along the way and passing it on to the next.

 

[He put me back together]

What about those guys in Acts (sorry don't know exact scripture) who tried to cast demons out in the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches and the demons spoke out and said, "Jesus we know, and Paul we know, but who are you?". Then the demons proceeded to beat them up.

I don't mean to inject into this rucus per se here is the scripture for you:
Acts 19:
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

It wasn't the demon who did the physical beating--it was the man the demon was controlling.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I don't mean to inject into this rucus per se here is the scripture for you:
Acts 19:
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

It wasn't the demon who did the physical beating--it was the man the demon was controlling.

You're right. . .but if the demons were not on him I doubt he could have overtaken several others the way he did. It was by their strength he did it.

 

[He put me back together]

You're right. . .but if the demons were not on him I doubt he could have overtaken several others the way he did. It was by their strength he did it.

Well, I agree with you to a point. It's true this man wouldn't have wounded them if he wasn't possessed--it was the demon that was in control! First of all, however, this isn't a feat of superhuman strength--it's a feat of insanity. These guys weren't setting out to harm him; they were setting out to help him. But even if they were in a brawling state, a man who is out of his mind (anyone who is possessed by a demon of this type qualifies as such) would still prevail against them--just ask any psychiatric worker. It takes a group of strong men to handle one small man who is freaking out, unless of course you want to kill him. A better bet for arguing "demonics have superhuman strength" would be Legion, who could not be restrained by chains...but here's the jest on any of that:

Our muscles are by far stronger than we believe them to be. The ceiling of their uncontrolled, unfatigued strength is not their maximum pulling force, but rather the point at which they tear away from the bone. Our muscles are strong enough to tear themselves apart, but we measure the height of our strength by much less than this point--why? Pain. Pain is what restrains us from destroying ourselves. Pain is the body's forum of feedback, to let us know that something is harming it...in this case, muscles harming themselves.

A demon, however, cares nothing about the men he takes posession of. If demons cared about their hosts, the boy that we see in the gospel who threw himself in the fire, wouldn't have done so. If legion cared about the well being of the man they were controlling, the man wouldn't have cut himself. Men possessed by demons of this kind at times will perform great feats of strength, not because demons have any power in the physical world on their own, but because these men are not restrained. Is it possible to construct a chain that legion could not have broken, even in that time, even if the guy yanked at it chronically, day and night, without restrain? Absolutely. A pound of bone is stronger than a pound of iron, but it can be done. But would this chain be the kind of shackles that your common officers would have? Probably not.

These stories go to show us, however, that the devil is not just some punk you can beat around by raising your voice. Sure, the cliche is true--the devil only has the power that is given to him. But how much is given to him? In the case of the possessed, a lot. And the kind we see in these particular segments are NOT the worst of them. Those who put Jesus and the Apostles to death are still lurking in the church today, and we cannot afford to forget about them, by letting the grunts distract us.
Too many of us think that we can outsmart the devil--but he has been tricking men and women like us for thousands of years. He convinced 1/3 of the angels to sin against God, who were with God in his glory, knowing him for who he was. He convinced us to sin in the garden, BEFORE we were fallen, when we walked with God and saw him face to face. How are we supposed to DREAM of outmanuvering this persuasive mind? The Holy Spirit is our ONLY hope. He had the devil beaten before the foundation of the world. It will not be done by might, numbers, power, RAISING ONE'S VOICE, rituals, singing, wooden crosses, candles, words, formulas, or anger--but by his Spirit.

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

I would love to help of course but I think that may be geographically impossible (unless I was transported like Philip was)
However:
"Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened to you"

But my question is.... what leads you to believe migraines are demonic in origin? Off the top of my head, I can't recall any everyday malady being implicated as demonic in Scripture....

 

[SavedByGrace3]

But my question is.... what leads you to believe migraines are demonic in origin? Off the top of my head, I can't recall any everyday malady being implicated as demonic in Scripture....

You are correct to some extent EE... sometimes a headache is just a headache.
However, we see that Jesus healed people with all manner of sickness, and that these sicknesses were attributed to the devil:

Act 10:
38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

How would the devil inflict these ailments other than direct contact with the body?

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

You are correct to some extent EE... sometimes a headache is just a headache.
However, we see that Jesus healed people with all manner of sickness, and that these sicknesses were attributed to the devil:

Act 10:
38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

How would the devil inflict these ailments other than direct contact with the body?

I think it's a big stretch to say that everyone Jesus healed was sick/lame/deaf/blind due to demonic intervention, basically because He never implied they were. In the context of the above scripture, "healed" can mean a lot of different things.

 

[TasManOfGod]

But my question is.... what leads you to believe migraines are demonic in origin? Off the top of my head, I can't recall any everyday malady being implicated as demonic in Scripture....

Are we not told to be "sober " and "vigilent" Why do you suppose that is ?
My test for things is to ask : "do they come from God or do they come from the devil?".
Jesus answered this in John 10:10
"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that you may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

Now if you can produce evidence that migraines are a benefit to mankind I will agree that they come from God!!!!
blessing
Tas

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

Are we not told to be "sober " and "vigilent" Why do you suppose that is ?
My test for things is to ask : "do they come from God or do they come from the devil?".
Jesus answered this in John 10:10
"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that you may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

Now if you can produce evidence that migraines are a benefit to mankind I will agree that they come from God!!!!

So anything that's painful probably isn't of God?

I don't want to second guess the Creator and try to give a "why" for everything.... why do I get headaches? I dunno. But I know the secret things belong to God, and works things out for the best as He sees fit.

Frankly, I'm glad they STAY secret. I'd really rather God didn't tell me "because in 35 years you're going to get liver cancer and though you won't know it, this will help you cope" when I ask "why".......

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." - John 1:3

Personally, I _really_ don't believe the line that says anything unpleasant or painful comes from Satan. I don't think scripture supports it at all.