How come Jesus never wrote anything down?

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote)” Christ Writing everything down changes the core dynamics of Christianity. you seem to not be addressing this central point on purpose.”

(reply) Exactly how would Christianity be different and how do you know this to be true?

(quote)” Did you miss the whole Growing up in poverty thing? Where has the bible ever stated that Christ's miracles were ever used to benefit himself? He fasted in the desert for 40 days and the devil tempted Him, by telling Him to provide simple bread for Himself, by turning stones into bread. He declined and decided to follow the Will of His Father. Did you understand the explanation?”

(reply) But performing miracles to benefit mankind seems to be acceptable: turning water into expensive wine, feeding 5000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread etc.
Or maybe he could have just have someone steal it for him like he had his disciples steal that colt. (Matthew 21:1-2)

(quote)” Again what should have been written in the 4or 5 pages that you allowed Christ?”

(reply) When did I ever say that Christ’s writings should be limited to only 4 or 5 pages?
Next when I asked:” Do you worship the bible?”

He replied (quote)” I was originally taught to do this yes. My mother still does. In Christian terms most legalist are bound to the bible. I would say about 40% of Christians fall under this description…… I do not worship the bible because someone show me how it was wrong. If there was no one to help me see the truth then i would probably still be were i was told to be. the only reason I changed was because i wanted to worship God and not a religious expression.”

(reply)Okay if I am understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying if Jesus wrote the bible Christians would worship the bible instead of God, so it is better if men wrote it.
Then you say currently 40% of all Christians worship the bible, your mom still does and you used to until you were taught not to; am I correct so far?

I say if Jesus did write the bible, the same 40% of Christians would still worship the bible, your mother would, and you would have until you were taught otherwise thus your point becomes mute.

Jpark (quote)” if Jesus wrote down something, would there be life in His writings?”

(reply) exactly what does that mean?

Solorwave (quote)” I think people would view it differently, though how much different I don't know. Even now alot of people talk as if the words of Jesus in the gospels have more authority.”

(reply) sounds to me like you are saying if Jesus wrote the bible, it would have more credibility.

Ken

 

[Jpark]

Jpark (quote)” if Jesus wrote down something, would there be life in His writings?”

(reply) exactly what does that mean?

Look around you and what do you see? Religion.

And you know that it's futile, right? It's clear that it is of no help when it comes to temptation, lust, etc.

Look at the supposed holy books and read them. You know that they are just words, having no power, right?

And look at what Christianity is becoming, a dead church of the living God.

1 Thess. 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction...

What distinguished the gospel from religion is that it was accompanied with 1) power 2) the Holy Spirit, surest presence of God and 3) full conviction.

What does it mean by full conviction? It means absolute.

2 Cor. 3:6 is the key. How many would believe if the apostles were still alive and what they said was proven? Undoubtedly many.

But now that we only have some of their writings, and we do not hear their voices anymore, how many believe now?

 

[solarwave]

sounds to me like you are saying if Jesus wrote the bible, it would have more credibility.

Well since you defined credibility as 'written the way Jesus would have wanted it to be written' that would be correct.

 

[drich0150]

reply) Exactly how would Christianity be different and how do you know this to be true?

I have already pointed this out to you several times. We would easily become a legalistic commune of believers. Some how when "holy prophets" put ink to page all that is said is locked into law in such away that makes the very words themselves holy and a Kin to deity.

The reason I know this is because Every other "religion" that worships "God" has had a Major prophet directly write down all of the laws of their faith. How much more true would this be for us if we had the words God Himself inked out?

(reply) But performing miracles to benefit mankind seems to be acceptable: turning water into expensive wine, feeding 5000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread etc.
Or maybe he could have just have someone steal it for him like he had his disciples steal that colt. (Matthew 21:1-2)

there is nothing else that needs to be said here. you have the information you need. you simply wish to argue logic and reasoning from a perspective that does not or will not include the culture in which these events happened.

This behavior reminds me of how those in the US treated, and questioned the people of Japan after WWII. They/we looked at the traditions, the clothing, the food, the way business was conducted, just every aspect of their culture and judged it by our own standards. This bigoted approach to the social treasures of that nation wound up destroying a great deal of the people's national identity, simply because when we rebuilt that nation we did it in our own image. This same bigoted approached is mirrored in your questions and line of reasoning. You can not see the forest because the trees are blocking your view.

You need to understand none of what the bible offers will make sense in your mind unless you first suspend this great need you seem to have in judging those people and that time by today's standard. The bible was not written to you, in this language, nor this time period. You would do much better if you kept that in mind.

(reply) When did I ever say that Christ’s writings should be limited to only 4 or 5 pages?

two posts ago.

I say if Jesus did write the bible, the same 40% of Christians would still worship the bible, your mother would, and you would have until you were taught otherwise thus your point becomes mute.

Then why are the Jews still worship the words of God as if they were apart of God? Why do the Muslims worship the words of their prophet as if they were apart of God?

Even now that we have a distinct and clear separation between the Book of God and God himself we still have say 40% of us who can not make the separation between the Book God uses and God Himself. I still contend that if God wrote the words of the Bible Himself then it would be like it is in every other major religion, in that the followers of that religion worship the words of God.

 

[MattRose]

Or maybe he could have just have someone steal it for him like he had his disciples steal that colt. (Matthew 21:1-2)

Dude! You're calling Jesus a horse thief?!? That's very unfair by only listing those 2 passages when right below is the whole story. Although now I'm intrigued. Can you find an out of context passage where it appears Jesus wants to learn Spanish?

 

[If Not For Grace]

Why didn't Philip or Thomas or Matthias write anything? Maybe they did, but it wasn't preserved.

Actually there have in "recent" years been documents found (Dead Sea Scrolls) that WERE/Have been attributed to them as well as Mary, Perhaps we have not yet discovered all the documents from that period. It was the the "Temple"'s advantage to supress such writings at that time. No religion wants a "new twist" injected to it's dogmatic system.

 

[bling]

Actually there have in "recent" years been documents found (Dead Sea Scrolls) that WERE/Have been attributed to them as well as Mary, Perhaps we have not yet discovered all the documents from that period. It was the the "Temple"'s advantage to supress such writings at that time. No religion wants a "new twist" injected to it's dogmatic system.

Small fragments have only a very few scholars suggesting there is anything about Christians in the Dead Sea Scrolls. That sect of Jews are very cerimonial and purist type Jews and not like Christians of the day.

 

[laconicstudent]

I believe it was Mark Twain who said: A foolish mans account of a wise mans words are never accurate; because he must translate what he hears into something that he can actually understand.
In other words; the source, is better than second hand information. So for the 30 odd years Jesus was on Earth, why didn’t he write something down? He never even instructed his followers to write down anything specific! Why?

The only thing we know about Jesus is what other men wrote about him, and of course there is much contradiction and inconsistencies of what these men wrote; example: If you believe the books that men wrote that eventually became the Holy Bible, according to these men, Jesus claimed he was the son of God. But if you believe some of the books that eventually became the Gnostic gospels or even the Holy Koran, according to these books Jesus never even made such claims!
It seems to me whatever you believe about Jesus is determined by which flawed and imperfect authors you choose to believe; am I wrong?

According to my understanding, this is how the Bible was written:
Jesus Taught and Preached on Earth, during which time he never wrote anything down. Then approx 50 yrs after he died, various men began to write about him, then many years later, the Catholic church (cannon) voted on which books were inspired by God and which ones were not. (I am sure there was an agenda involved with the choices they made)The inspired books became the Bible, the others discarded.

Had Jesus written the bible, his thoughts and wishes would have been for all to see and the Catholic church and it’s agenda wouldn’t have dared to declare any of them uninspired, and you wouldn’t have the inconsistencies you have with so many different people writing about him each with their own agenda; don’t cha think?

Also, how was some of this information gathered? Example: who witnessed what happened when Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane? All his disciples were asleep! Jesus never wrote anything down so how did St Mark (who wrote about it) get this information? What about the man who came to Jesus in the middle of the night? Who witnessed this event to be later written about?

Your thoughts???

Ken

Jesus was by trade a village carpenter. Why do you assume that he even knew how to write or that he could afford writing materials?

 

[drich0150]

Dude! You're calling Jesus a horse thief?!? That's very unfair by only listing those 2 passages when right below is the whole story. Although now I'm intrigued. Can you find an out of context passage where it appears Jesus wants to learn Spanish?

If Ken wanted to play fairly this thread would not have gone past the 3rd page. He's mad at Christianity/Christians and this is how it plays out.. Let him play himself out.

 

[Ken-1122]

Jpark explains had Jesus written something down there would be life in his writings:

(quote” Look around you and what do you see? Religion.
And you know that it's futile, right? It's clear that it is of no help when it comes to temptation, lust, etc.
Look at the supposed holy books and read them. You know that they are just words, having no power, right?
And look at what Christianity is becoming, a dead church of the living God.
1 Thess. 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction...
What distinguished the gospel from religion is that it was accompanied with 1) power 2) the Holy Spirit, surest presence of God and 3) full conviction.[/font]
What does it mean by full conviction? It means absolute.[/font]
2 Cor. 3:6 is the key. How many would believe if the apostles were still alive and what they said was proven? Undoubtedly many.
But now that we only have some of their writings, and we do not hear their voices anymore, how many believe now?.”

(reply) sounds like you agree it would be better if Jesus had written the bible
Next when I said: “sounds to me like you are saying if Jesus wrote the bible, it would have more credibility. ”

Solar wave replied (quote)” Well since you defined credibility as 'written the way Jesus would have wanted it to be written' that would be correct.”

(reply) Actually that would be; people believing it was written the way Jesus would have wanted it to be written.
Next when I asked: “Exactly how would Christianity be different and how do you know this to be true?”
Drich0150 replied (quote)”have already pointed this out to you several times. We would easily become a legalistic commune of believers. Some how when "holy prophets" put ink to page all that is said is locked into law in such away that makes the very words themselves holy and a Kin to deity.

The reason I know this is because Every other "religion" that worships "God" has had a Major prophet directly write down all of the laws of their faith. How much more true would this be for us if we had the words God Himself inked out?”

(reply) Maybe we aren’t understanding each other, so tell me where I am going wrong:
I asked how would Christianity be different had Jesus written the bible and you reply that many Christians would worship the rather than God.
You then proclaim even though Jesus did not write the bible, that 40% of all Christians currently worship the bible, your mom worships it and you used to worship it before you were taught differently.
I then respond that the same 40%, your mom, and yourself until taught not to, are probably the same that would worship had Jesus written the bible thus your argument that Jesus refrained from writing the bible to prevent people from worshiping it fails!
Now tell me what is it you don’t understand, or where am I going wrong.

As far as you claiming that I said Jesus writings should be limited to 4-5 pages, my exact words were (quote)”And it’s not like it had to be a million pages long, maybe all that was needed to be put down could fit on 3 or 4 pages! ”
You must have misunderstood me

Iaconicstudent (quote)”Jesus was by trade a village carpenter. Why do you assume that he even knew how to write or that he could afford writing materials

(reply)If God can do anything, I am sure he can make sure his son gets the necessary tools to get the job done.

Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply) Maybe we aren’t understanding each other, so tell me where I am going wrong:
I asked how would Christianity be different had Jesus written the bible and you reply that many Christians would worship the rather than God.
You then proclaim even though Jesus did not write the bible, that 40% of all Christians currently worship the bible, your mom worships it and you used to worship it before you were taught differently.
I then respond that the same 40%, your mom, and yourself until taught not to, are probably the same that would worship had Jesus written the bible thus your argument that Jesus refrained from writing the bible to prevent people from worshiping it fails!
Now tell me what is it you don’t understand, or where am I going wrong.

Your wrong in thinking that the worshipers of the bible would be limited to 40 or so percent if christ wrote the bible. As in every other "God" worshiping religion where a major prophet relays the words of God, those words all of them are worship as if they were God.

Again you are Wrong in thinking that Christianity would limit it's legalistic behavior to the 40 or so percent we have now. Simply because we would not have any precedent to teach us otherwise.

As far as you claiming that I said Jesus writings should be limited to 4-5 pages, my exact words were (quote)”And it’s not like it had to be a million pages long, maybe all that was needed to be put down could fit on 3 or 4 pages! ”
You must have misunderstood me

So again what or How would you limit the works or words of Christ to 4 or 5 pages? What gets included and what gets excluded?

Perhaps you misunderstand me. If you think The words of Christ could be limited to 4 or 5 pages, what would they be? What would they say?

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) “Your wrong in thinking that the worshipers of the bible would be limited to 40 or so percent if christ wrote the bible. As in every other "God" worshiping religion where a major prophet relays the words of God, those words all of them are worship as if they were God.

(reply) Okay I think I know where you are coming from. You say Jesus didn’t write the bible to prevent people from worshiping it. And even though 40% of all Christians still worship the bible in spite of Jesus not writing it; had Jesus wrote it, there would be even more worshiping it.
Okay; fair enough that is a perfectly legitimate POV (point of view) to have. I don’t agree with it, but that is your perspective and it does answer my question from your prespective.

Here is how I see it; I don’t think any Christians would worship the bible had Jesus written it, and I don’t think any of them worship it right now. I don’t even think 40% of all Christians even read the bible (I know many Catholics that don’t) let alone worship it! I believe most Christians rarely go to church, they know very little about the history of how the bible became as we know it today; they probably think God or Jesus actually wrote it, and they know very little about what is actually inside. I also believe most know little about Christianity, just believe in God and Jesus and have faith that the bible contains the truth.

That is just a POV I’ve attained via talking to people who believe in God and adore towards the Christian believe. I didn’t do any survey or research to come to this conclusion, that’s just how I see it.

(quote)” Again you are Wrong in thinking that Christianity would limit it's legalistic behavior to the 40 or so percent we have now. Simply because we would not have any precedent to teach us otherwise.”

(reply )Legalistic behavior??? What does that mean? I never said anything about 40% having legalistic behavior, that’s something totally different; don’t know where that one came from.

(quote)” So again what or How would you limit the works or words of Christ to 4 or 5 pages? What gets included and what gets excluded?

Perhaps you misunderstand me. If you think The words of Christ could be limited to 4 or 5 pages, what would they be? What would they say?[/font]”

(reply) Are you kidding me??? For the last time, I never said his words should be limited to 4 or 5 pages! My exact words were

“And it’s not like it had to be a million pages long, maybe all that was needed to be put down could fit on 3 or 4 pages! ””

When I said “maybe” that meant I don’t know; it may be 3 or 4 pages or it may be more. I made that comment because you guys were saying Jesus didn’t have time to write the bible during his lifetime.


K

 

[drich0150]

Here is how I see it; I don’t think any Christians would worship the bible had Jesus written it, and I don’t think any of them worship it right now. I don’t even think 40% of all Christians even read the bible (I know many Catholics that don’t) let alone worship it!

One can not accurately gage how "Christianity" (A non-scripture worshiping religion) would react if the whole of the Christian community deemed it necessary to worship the bible.) You would have to look at the other two scripture worshiping religions to have any sort of an accurate idea. Does this mean all will worship this way? It's just like all Muslims and or Jews do not worship their scriptures in the same way, but there is a common thread. In that there "righteousness" comes from doing or closely following the prescribed paths found in their religions.

I believe most Christians rarely go to church, they know very little about the history of how the bible became as we know it today; they probably think God or Jesus actually wrote it, and they know very little about what is actually inside. I also believe most know little about Christianity, just believe in God and Jesus and have faith that the bible contains the truth.

Many who call themselves Muslims or Jews do these very same things, and yet their central theology focuses on God worship through the worship of their scripture.

That is just a POV I’ve attained via talking to people who believe in God and adore towards the Christian believe. I didn’t do any survey or research to come to this conclusion, that’s just how I see it.

I think what would help your POV is a little discernment from those identifying themselves as a certain religion. Just because one does this does not mean they are. "It is by their fruit will you know them."

(reply )Legalistic behavior??? What does that mean? I never said anything about 40% having legalistic behavior, that’s something totally different; don’t know where that one came from.

Legalism is the tight adherence of bible or the understanding of one's doctrine that is based on the "rules/laws" found in the bible. Legalism is the fruit of bible worship. in that if one worships or rather seeks the production righteousness through the strict adherence of the words God, instead of accepting the Grace and mercy given by God. This would indicate that they are depending on their own effort their own will power coupled with their belief in the bible to produce a soul that can stand before God blameless.

This is not what Christianity is supposed to be about. We are to use the bible yes. But, we are to use it to find or to know that no one can ever be found righteousness through what it is they do. True Righteousness can only be obtained through atonement of sin. (Like we discussed earlier) Because as the bible says salvation is a gift from God apart from our works, so that no man can boast. We are save unto works, not because of them.

A legalistic system of belief countermands this fundamental principle (among others) in favor of biblical worship, or if you rather, a strict adherence to the rules and law rather than what Christ did to provide salvation. I identify this a biblical worship because one turns His attention from the works of Christ and focuses on his own work in trying to mirror the bible. One can not Love his Lord God With all of his Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Strength if his attention has been completely consumed in the study and "flawless" execution of his bible centered faith.

the Bible is a tool that should be used to build a relationship with God, not the relationship itself.

When I said “maybe” that meant I don’t know; it may be 3 or 4 pages or it may be more. I made that comment because you guys were saying Jesus didn’t have time to write the bible during his lifetime.

If all that was written span several people and several dozen life times then how could it be condensed to one life time and or the efforts of one man. Christ was 100% God, and Yet He was still 100% man, that means even though He commanded the authority of God He chose to limit Himself to what His body could do.

Let me ask you, why do you think He did not write the bible?

If you truly say you do not know then how can you doubt or dismiss what others say?

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote)” If all that was written span several people and several dozen life times then how could it be condensed to one life time and or the efforts of one man. Christ was 100% God, and Yet He was still 100% man, that means even though He commanded the authority of God He chose to limit Himself to what His body could do.”

(reply)Good point! And if we assume the bible had to be written as it is today, I can understand it being too difficult for him. But if we simply assume it to be written only as necessary, than it would probably be totally different. As a matter of fact I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if Jesus actually saw the bible as written today, that he would be very disappointed by the books men choose to represent him.

(quote)”Let me ask you, why do you think He did not write the bible?”

(reply) First of all I wouldn’t be surprised if he actually did write stuff down or at least had someone write stuff for him but it got suppressed and destroyed by those who decided his words didn’t fit into their personal agenda
But assuming that is not the case, I suspect Jesus may have believed the end was near thus writing stuff down for future generations would be unnecessary. If you recall during the sermon on the mound; his final sermon to his disciples, and they asked him about the ends of times and he gives a very weary indication of the end of times; “wars, rumors of wars, Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, conflict, evil, “etc. then at the end he says “these things shall happen in your generation (Mark 13:30)
So I guess my answer is, Jesus didn’t write anything down because he didn’t feel it to be necessary.

Peace
Ken

 

[drich0150]

(

reply)Good point! And if we assume the bible had to be written as it is today, I can understand it being too difficult for him. But if we simply assume it to be written only as necessary, than it would probably be totally different. As a matter of fact I would’t be a bit surprised if Jesus actually saw the bible as written today, that he would be very disappointed by the books men choose to represent him.

One of my early points was that everything written down from Moses to John of patmos was that it all was necessary to establish who Jesus was to the world, and the what and why of salvation. For this reason and because these questions could not simply be established in written law or rule (Because Christianity is the anti rule religion) No one man could have set the tone for what took place over the span of generations. Everything was needed to establish what took place and the direction of salvation.

(reply) First of all I would’t be surprised if he actually did write stuff down or at least had someone write stuff for him but it got suppressed and destroyed by those who decided his words didn’t fit into their personal agenda

Most of what Paul wrote did not jive with the early church the book of Revelations for most of church history were considered the writings of a Mad man living in a cave on a prison island. There is much in the bible the "church" does not agree with. It is not there because "we" like it or simply because we have decided that we can make a religion out of these teachings. What was complied was the evidence and writings that could not be ignored. This is made apparent by the direction early church Doctrine took, in comparison to what the compilation of the complete works of the bible would have us believe and do.

But assuming that is not the case, I suspect Jesus may have believed the end was near thus writing stuff down for future generations would be unnecessary. If you recall during the sermon on the mound; his final sermon to his disciples, and they asked him about the ends of times and he gives a very weary indication of the end of times; “wars, rumors of wars, Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, conflict, evil, “etc. then at the end he says “these things shall happen in your generation (Mark 13:30)
So I guess my answer is, Jesus didn’t write anything down because he didn’t feel it to be necessary.

How does this differ from what I said repeatedly?
I kept asking you to whom would He be writing to?

Granted you believe it was because He thought it to be shortly after the resurrection and my response pointed to the fact that no one in his culture except for those who hated Him could read or write, the end result is the same.

Again why would he have written to a future generation forsaking the present one? If the church was not established to their liking no future generations would have existed.

 

[knight72]

I believe it was Mark Twain who said: A foolish mans account of a wise mans words are never accurate; because he must translate what he hears into something that he can actually understand.
In other words; the source, is better than second hand information. So for the 30 odd years Jesus was on Earth, why didn’t he write something down? He never even instructed his followers to write down anything specific! Why?

...snip....
Your thoughts???

Ken

I haven't read all the replies, but I imagine that someone has already stated that Jesus knew what would be written and recorded through history. After all, Jesus, who is also God would know the future as well.

Seems reasonable, that if Jesus is God, then He was also aware what words would be written and recorded.