How come good Friday is only two days from Easter Sunday?

[ImAHebrew]

Joshua 4 and 5 prove once for all the First Sheaf was "revealed" "and shaken" on any day of the week "on the day after the sabbath"-OF-THE-PASSOVER.

At the exodus passover it was another matter. There the 16th was on the weekly Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath was therefore "the day after the sabbath" of the passover --in that instance, the Sixth Day and perfect type of the instance of Jesus' Last Passover Suffering of Yahweh.

Shalom Gerhard, hang in there, you are going to get this right. The eating of bread, parched corn, and green ears could NOT occur UNTIL after the Sheaf was waved, and the OFFERING offered. The Sheaf was WAVED on the morrow AFTER the Sabbath, and the offering was made on the day when the Sheaf was WAVED. So the eating COULD occur on the morrow AFTER the Sabbath, when the Sheaf had been waved and the offering offered, and that year, in which they entered the Land, it was ON the 15th that they ate, Joshua 4 and Joshua 5 PROVES this unequivocally. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The eating of bread, parched corn, and green ears could NOT occur UNTIL after the Sheaf was waved, and the OFFERING offered.

The first sheaf was revealed / waved / shaken while the seven days ulb was ongoing, to wit, on the second day ulb was eaten.
Again, the meaning is eating of UNLEAVENED bread, parched corn, and green ears. Not the usual food on normal days. It was feast of days of ULB!

And there were "offerings" of all kinds for every one of the passover days, whether the three days of three first days or the first or last or all seven of the feast of ulb or for the day the first sheaf was revealed or for the day they killed the passover ... whichever day of passover.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

that year, in which they entered the Land, it was ON the 15th that they ate, Joshua 4 and Joshua 5 PROVES this unequivocally.

...that's what he's been saying...

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Young's Literal translation of Luke 24:21 that "τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν" is in the accusative case and therefore not the subject of ἄγει.

It bothered me too. Kinda hoped nobody would notice. Bad! Anyhow, looks like true scholars find this difficult. ATR must have a solution. will check up.

But at the end of the day as they say, the verse is perfectly understandable. Unless Kenneth McMillen comes with a REAL objection to just about all the good translators' rendering, who cares? Not me.

Another certainty is, Greek OFTEN uses NO word to say something "is". Why not in Luke 24:21?

It's only trouble makers who search and search for something they don't know a thing about themselves. What for? To create new rules of grammar on a single incidence without precedence or etymological references? It's absurd. I shall hold onto the KJV.

 

[ImAHebrew]

The first sheaf was revealed / waved / shaken while the seven days ulb was ongoing, to wit, on the second day ulb was eaten.
Again, the meaning is eating of UNLEAVENED bread, parched corn, and green ears. Not the usual food on normal days. It was feast of days of ULB!

And there were "offerings" of all kinds for every one of the passover days, whether the three days of three first days or the first or last or all seven of the feast of ulb or for the day the first sheaf was revealed or for the day they killed the passover ... whichever day of passover.

Shalom Gerhard, but is Leviticus 23:14 in your bible? What does it mean that you cannot eat? Explain that to me? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[ImAHebrew]

...that's what he's been saying...

Shalom Gerhard, great, I am glad we are in agreement. The Sheaf of the Firstfruits was waved on the morrow of the 14th, and the eating of the produce of the land, occurred on that morrow (the 15th). Finally, we agree. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[ImAHebrew]

Passover days of kill, of bury, of resurrection -- the three days thick darkness in Egypt at the exodus are the main and thus called, Bone Days. Also the tenth day of the First Month (also a passover day) is called a Bone-Day.
Even the days called ''Bone Day" in the Seventh Month, are 'Little Passover' days and have to do with the killing and disposal of the remains of the sacrifice.

But Pentecost is not called "Bone Day", Leviticus 23:21 and 22 do not belong with verses 18-20, but apply to the days the harvest was "cut off"--"killed" and "stored" in the sanctuary the sheaf having been "brought to the priest" and "stored for you", on 14 and 15 Abib. Leviticus 23:10/11a. Verses 21,22 transfer the law-giving from the original passover to the Seventh Month's days of Atonement and Feast of tabernacles or 'Little Passover'. As can be deduced from the word "proclaim", the institutionalisation of the passover can be discerned in verses 21,22, in contrast with foregoing and following feasts of Pentecost in the spring to summer months, and the Seventh Month's or fall to winter's feasts.

So, yes, what you say is what I believe.

Shalom Gerhard, so what day does Leviticus 23:21 state is the Bone Day and should be rested upon with a holy convocation?

Leviticus 23:21 And ye shall proclaim on the BONE-Day, [that] it (the BONE-Day) may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Is this some other day than Pentecost/Shavuot? What Bone-Day were they suppose to rest and convoke on if it was not Pentecost/Shavuot? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

P.S. Also, do you have any understanding as to why the Two Wave Loaves were baked WITH leaven (Leviticus 23:17), when ALL of the other grain/meat offerings could have NO leaven (Leviticus 6:17). Let's just see what you KNOW.

 

[Der Alte]

[Staff edit].

Example: (Luke 24:21 b) "Today, LEADS (G71) the third day AWAY FROM (G575) when those things happened." Example: (John 19:31)

Luke 24:21
(21) ημειςG2249 δεG1161 BUT WE ηλπιζομενG1679 [G5707] οτιG3754 WERE HOPING αυτοςG846 HE εστινG2076 [G5748] IT IS οG3588 WHO μελλωνG3195 [G5723] IS ABOUT λυτρουσθαιG3084 [G5733] τονG3588 TO REDEEM ισραηλG2474 ISRAEL. αλλαG235 γεG1065 BUT THEN συνG4862 WITH πασινG3956 ALL τουτοιςG5125 THESE THINGS τριτηνG5154 THIRD ταυτηνG3778 THIS ημερανG2250 DAY αγειG71 [G5719] BRINGS σημερονG4594 TODAY αφG575 ουG3739 SINCE ταυταG5023 THESE THINGS εγενετοG1096 [G5633] CAME TO PASS. ​

Which word are you translating "from" in Luk 24:21?
Once again, αγω/αγει is a verb, how can a day perform the action of leading anything?

The High Day was the Sabbath of the 1st Day of ULB, not the weekly Sabbath. Example: (Leviticus 23:11) The Jews believe the Sabbath the counting starts from is the Sabbath of the 1st Day of ULB (the 15th), yet you still deny John calling THAT Sabbath a Megas Day.

I have denied no such thing. You have not offered any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which shows that the 1st day of ULB is/was a Sabbath. I do not consider Berean to be such evidence since I was unable to locate any qualifications in Greek at their website and none has been presented in this thread.
.....But I have more than once shown from scripture that 1st/7th ULB are not Sabbaths because the work of preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on those days. All work including cooking and preparing food is strictly forbidden on the Sabbath, on pain of death.
.....Since the work of preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st/7th ULB they do not require a Preparation day as does the Sabbath when everything must be prepared. Since these days, 1st/7th ULB, do not require a day of preparation there could only be one (1) Preparation day is Passion week, i.e. the day before the weekly Sabbath or Friday.
.....The fact that some preparations might have been made before 1st/7th ULB does not make them a "Preparation" day any more than some preparations before any other day makes it a Preparation day.

JPS Leviticus 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete;
Targum Lev 23:15 And number to you after the first feast day of Pascha, from the day when you brought the sheaf for the elevation, seven weeks; complete they shall be. ​

Note the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation and the pre-Christian Targum do not say that 1st/7th ULB are Sabbaths. Sabbaths are very important to the Jews, if 1st/7th ULB were Sabbaths, certainly these two Jewish translations would say so.

We addressed these errors of yours, and I very politely pointed out your error in Posts #771 and #777, which you ignored. Now I will ask you. Can a Feast Day be considered a "Megas" day ALL by itself, thus making it a Sabbath, as John said in John 19:31, or does the Feast Day have to fall on the weekly Sabbath for it to be considered a "Megas" day? Please answer clearly. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I have ignored nothing. I have addressed this argument more than once in this thread. If you want to know if the feast days of 1st/7th ULB specifically could be called a Megas day, look it up for yourself in the OT.

 

[AFrazier]

Luke 24:21
(21) ημειςG2249 δεG1161 BUT WE ηλπιζομενG1679 [G5707] οτιG3754 WERE HOPING αυτοςG846 HE εστινG2076 [G5748] IT IS οG3588 WHO μελλωνG3195 [G5723] IS ABOUT λυτρουσθαιG3084 [G5733] τονG3588 TO REDEEM ισραηλG2474 ISRAEL. αλλαG235 γεG1065 BUT THEN συνG4862 WITH πασινG3956 ALL τουτοιςG5125 THESE THINGS τριτηνG5154 THIRD ταυτηνG3778 THIS ημερανG2250 DAY αγειG71 [G5719] BRINGS σημερονG4594 TODAY αφG575 ουG3739 SINCE ταυταG5023 THESE THINGS εγενετοG1096 [G5633] CAME TO PASS. ​

Which word are you translating "from" in Luk 24:21?
Once again, αγω/αγει is a verb, how can a day perform the action of leading anything?

I have denied no such thing. You have not offered any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which shows that the 1st day of ULB is/was a Sabbath. I do not consider Berean to be such evidence since I was unable to locate any qualifications in Greek at their website and none has been presented in this thread.
.....But I have more than once shown from scripture that 1st/7th ULB are not Sabbaths because the work of preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on those days. All work including cooking and preparing food is strictly forbidden on the Sabbath, on pain of death.
.....Since the work of preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st/7th ULB they do not require a Preparation day as does the Sabbath when everything must be prepared. Since these days, 1st/7th ULB, do not require a day of preparation there could only be one (1) Preparation day is Passion week, i.e. the day before the weekly Sabbath or Friday.
.....The fact that some preparations might have been made before 1st/7th ULB does not make them a "Preparation" day any more than some preparations before any other day makes it a Preparation day.

JPS Leviticus 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete;
Targum Lev 23:15 And number to you after the first feast day of Pascha, from the day when you brought the sheaf for the elevation, seven weeks; complete they shall be. ​

Note the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation and the pre-Christian Targum do not say that 1st/7th ULB are Sabbaths. Sabbaths are very important to the Jews, if 1st/7th ULB were Sabbaths, certainly these two Jewish translations would say so.

I have ignored nothing. I have addressed this argument more than once in this thread. If you want to know if the feast days of 1st/7th ULB specifically could be called a Megas day, look it up for yourself in the OT.

The root of the 'omer count argument on here actually started because I pointed out that the evidence for the "sabbath" aspect of the 15th is demonstrated in the count from the 16th. Pentecost is counted from the morrow after the sabbath. And since the documented practice was to count from the 16th, that necessarily makes the 15th a sabbath, albeit of a holiday variety. Whatever the holy convocation was or was not called, in practice it was treated as a sabbath.

Just food for thought.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shalom Gerhard, but is Leviticus 23:14 in your bible? What does it mean that you cannot eat? Explain that to me? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

It simply means you --the Israelites-- cannot, may not, eat LEAVENED food. Because it was in the seven days ulb had to, be eaten. That's what it <means>.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shalom Gerhard, great, I am glad we are in agreement. The Sheaf of the Firstfruits was waved on the morrow of the 14th, and the eating of the produce of the land, occurred on that morrow (the 15th). Finally, we agree. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

There is more than one sense or way or manner the sheaf was in fact "waved". Being cut off and lifted from the earth and be "reaped", was one way. That was done on the 14th.

Then just the opposite, for the sheaf to be "prostrated", "laid bare", "be safe-kept", be "rested in sanctuary", was another way to be "waved". This was done on and over the 15th.

And finally the sheaf was "waved" in the sense of be "revealed" again, be "taken out and shaken" in the open. Which they did on the 16th.

All the while, all this "waving" of the first sheaf was done "BEFORE THE LORD", but none more so than on the 15th in the sanctuary of his grave and on the 16th in Christ, "being rested up again His NAME THE MOST HOLY PLACE" Isaiah 57:15.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The root of the 'omer count argument on here actually started because I pointed out that the evidence for the "sabbath" aspect of the 15th is demonstrated in the count from the 16th. Pentecost is counted from the morrow after the sabbath. And since the documented practice was to count from the 16th, that necessarily makes the 15th a sabbath, albeit of a holiday variety. Whatever the holy convocation was or was not called, in practice it was treated as a sabbath.

Just food for thought.

Very good food for thought, food to be eaten with all one's heart!
Thanks very much.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

the first and last day of ULB... it was set aside like a Sabbath without that word being in the text... just "do no work" appears there. By the time you get to the NT, you have cultural additions in the text whether you (by you I mean Christians in general, not YOU as you obviously study beyond the depth of most) recognize them or not. One example... Passover (which is really the week of Unleavened Bread but culturally called Passover) is called, "a feast of the Jews" in the NT. It isn't a "feast of the Jews" as Lev. 23 very plainly states this to be one of the "feasts of YHWH." But, because only the Jews were keeping Passover at that time (Israel being still in the nations) then calling it a feast of the Jews is a cultural line in the text. So, they had to take Yeshua down before the Sabbath... Pesach is the 14th and not a Sabbath, the 15th isn't called one in Leviticus but is a day where "no work shall be done." Therefore, he had to be taken down and entombed before what they considered to be a Sabbath began, the first day of ULB. It is STILL treated like and called a Sabbath by Jews and Torah keeping Christians today.

The first and last days of ULB were <<set aside>> having had convocations on them which the in-between days of ulb did not have. Now as little or nothing the fact that no work or <<just work>> for worship can make the seven days of ulb ‘sabbaths’, just as impossible is it the convocations on only the first and last days of ulb could make them “sabbaths”.


What made the first day of the seven days ulb a sabbath, was the first sheaf. Nothing else. The fact the first sheaf was “rested down”—“waved prostrate”—, was “waved BEFORE THE LORD”, over the fifteenth day of the First Month, made it a ‘sabbath-day’. And it made the first day ULB Feast a “sabbath”; it did NOT make it “the Sabbath OF THE LORD”!


Neither the work nor the convocations could make only the first and seventh days of ulb, ‘sabbath’.


<<So, they had to take Yeshua down before the Sabbath...>>

<So…>? <So…> what? <So…> that <<Passover (which is really the week of Unleavened Bread but culturally called Passover) is called, "a feast of the Jews" in the NT. It isn't a "feast of the Jews" as Lev. 23 very plainly states this to be one of the "feasts of YHWH." But, because only the Jews were keeping Passover at that time (Israel being still in the nations) then calling it a feast of the Jews is a cultural line in the text>>?!

Really!? What is the connection, the sense, the cause, that <<Passover … feast … a cultural line in the text>> means that the Jews <<…had to take Yeshua down before the Sabbath...>>?! You ostensibly see how, but I don’t!


Is this your explanation, that because <<Pesach is the 14th and not a Sabbath, the 15th isn't called one in Leviticus but is a day where "no work shall be done." Therefore, he had to be taken down and entombed before what they considered to be a Sabbath began, the first day of ULB>>?


So your WHOLE reliance is upon your assumption and claim and validity of your claim assumed, that <<"no work shall be done">> on the 15th because the 15th is <<not a Sabbath>> (or is it, <<is a Sabbath>>?). Never mind what the Text actually is and never mind the qualifications context and circumstance required that "no work shall be done" actually was, as well as in fact, meant.


That is far too frail a basis to build an entire doctrine on ‘the sabbath’ on.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Leviticus 23:21 And ye shall proclaim on the BONE-Day, [that] it (the BONE-Day) may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Is this some other day than Pentecost/Shavuot?

This --Leviticus 23:21 And ye shall proclaim on the BONE-Day, [that] it (the BONE-Day) may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.-- is NOT <<some day>>; it is "ye shall proclaim / make Law / institute on the BONE-Day, [that] it (the proclamation) may be a statute".
Verses 21,22 is Law ABOUT Bone-Day the 14th; is not, Bone-Day the 14th.
It is the bony and sinewy JOINT of the TEXT and context, a literary phenomenon called a 'chiasmus' / 'chiasm'. It is not a historical record of a sequence of days. Which is why verses 21/22 are where they are in the Text BETWEEN the historic day the "Fiftieth Day" / Pentecost extension of the passover, and the first day of the Seventh Month and the historic and institutional days of the feasts of the Seventh Month.
And that explains why not Pentecost but the 14th is called the Bone-Day in verses 21/22, and is not called a 'sabbath' or 'the Sabbath'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Since the work of preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st/7th ULB they do not require a Preparation day as does the Sabbath when everything must be prepared.

Your arguments are logical and factual. But now you deviate from your logic and facts and build upon a single premise of your own, as it were, a universal rule: <<Since the work of preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st/7th ULB they do not require a Preparation day as does the Sabbath when everything must be prepared>>. That is taking advantage; disallowed advantage. (One often sees disallowed advantage in the game of rugby.)

FACT in this case, even if defying logic, is, That the passover feast day on 15th Abib, had a "Preparation-of-the-Passover", on passover 14th Abib, in the New, as in the Old Testament, seen MANY times.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The fact that some preparations might have been made before 1st/7th ULB does not make them a "Preparation" day any more than some preparations before any other day makes it a Preparation day.

Correct. It must be called, the "Preparation" before it could be <<a Preparation day>>. Correct.
Then per definition you have legitimised "the Preparation-of-the-Passover" in John 19:14, and sommer have fully explained the existence of another <<Preparation day...required in Passion week, i.e. the day before the weekly Sabbath or Friday>>.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Which word are you translating "from" in Luk 24:21?

Yes,this is that interesting and for me, difficult one. The case of the Accusative, 'sun pahsin toutois tritehn tautehn hehmeran agei aph' hou tauta egeneto'--"with all these things this third day since these things had happened, declines / gets old." ... "day" Subject, will normally have "day" Nominative, 'hehmera'. But we see it is "day" Accusative, 'hehmeran'.

I suggested one suppose the Verb 'to be', 'eisin' and say,

'sun pahsin toutois tritehn tautehn hehmeran estin agei aph' hou tauta egeneto'--
"with all these things (the turmoil that morning) this third day since those things (crucifixion etc.) had happened, is being brought (led) to close." Accusative!

Just suggesting!! (But nevertheless feeling quite happy with it.)

 

[ImAHebrew]

The root of the 'omer count argument on here actually started because I pointed out that the evidence for the "sabbath" aspect of the 15th is demonstrated in the count from the 16th. Pentecost is counted from the morrow after the sabbath. And since the documented practice was to count from the 16th, that necessarily makes the 15th a sabbath, albeit of a holiday variety. Whatever the holy convocation was or was not called, in practice it was treated as a sabbath.

Just food for thought.

Shalom AFraizer, a point well taken, and one that i tried in vain to make myself. The problem I have is, even though the documented or historical practice in counting from the morrow after the Sabbath was starting the count from the High Day (Megas) Sabbath, I do not agree with this "tradition." As you know, I believe the count must start from the morrow of the WEEKLY Sabbath, as Joshua 5 indicates (they were eating from the produce of the land on the morrow after the 14th, on the 15th day of the 1st month, NOT the 16th).

One of the arguments that "traditionalists" have brought forth in debunking a separate Sabbath that fell during Passion Week, is that a "megas" Sabbath, which John spoke of in John 19:31, would only be a "megas" Sabbath IF the 15th fell ON the weekly Sabbath. My whole contention is that the "megas" day, which John says was a Sabbath, fell by itself from Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset, giving a "work" day that fell BETWEEN the two Sabbaths.

Now, I would like to ask you the same question I asked Der Alter (which he has failed to address on two occasions - Post #777 & Post # 1179). Is the "megas" day that John refers to in John 7:37, a "megas" day because it is a FEAST day (the LAST day of the Feast), or because this Feast day ALSO fell on the weekly Sabbath, in the way traditionalists think what happened in John 19:31?

Please note that Yeshua's half-brothers (James, Joses, Simon, & Judas - Matthew 13:55), did not believe in Him (John 7:5), and challenged Him to reveal Himself "openly" at the Feast of Tabernacles (John 7:2-4). Yeshua goes up to the Feast "in secret" (John 7:10), and about half way through the Feast, He went into the Temple and taught (John 7:14). Then we come to John 7:37. In it we find out several things, it is the LAST day of the Feast of Tabernacles, AND it is ALSO that "megas" day of the Feast. So my question to you AFraizer, is this LAST day of the Feast of Tabernacles, that "megas" day, a "megas" day BECAUSE it was the LAST day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Leviticus 23:36, Leviticus 23:39, Numbers 29:35), or because this Last Day of the Feast fell on the weekly Sabbath, like traditionalists think happened in John 19:31?

Is not this LAST day of the Feast of Tabernacles, just like the FIRST & LAST days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, "megas" days, all on their OWN, making them Sabbaths (for that Sabbath was a "megas" day)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The problem I have is, even though the documented or historical practice in counting from the morrow after the Sabbath was starting the count from the High Day (Megas) Sabbath, I do not agree with this "tradition." As you know, I believe the count must start from the morrow of the WEEKLY Sabbath, as Joshua 5 indicates (they were eating from the produce of the land on the morrow after the 14th, on the 15th day of the 1st month, NOT the 16th).

What exactly do you, mean with <morrow>? 'morning', or, "day"? Because 'mocharoth' is next DAY. Day beginning sunset and the whole after.

 

[ImAHebrew]

There is more than one sense or way or manner the sheaf was in fact "waved". Being cut off and lifted from the earth and be "reaped", was one way. That was done on the 14th.

Then just the opposite, for the sheaf to be "prostrated", "laid bare", "be safe-kept", be "rested in sanctuary", was another way to be "waved". This was done on and over the 15th.

And finally the sheaf was "waved" in the sense of be "revealed" again, be "taken out and shaken" in the open. Which they did on the 16th.

All the while, all this "waving" of the first sheaf was done "BEFORE THE LORD", but none more so than on the 15th in the sanctuary of his grave and on the 16th in Christ, "being rested up again His NAME THE MOST HOLY PLACE" Isaiah 57:15.

Shalom Gerhard, to be sure, Yeshua's death upon the Cross was the "cutting" of the Sheaf, and I can agree with you that He was laid to rest in the tomb (3 days and 3 nights), and THEN on the morrow after the weekly Sabbath (the 18th day of the 1st month), He was WAVED or PRESENTED before the Heavenly Father (John 20:17) as the FIRSTFRUITS of those who would RISE from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:20). It appears that your belief has the Sabbath of the Feast of ULB (the 15th) and the weekly Sabbath falling on the same day, and that is not what happened. There was a WORK day BETWEEN the two Sabbaths to where the spices were bought AFTER the Sabbath of the Feast (the 15th-Mark 16:1), and then prepared BEFORE the weekly Sabbath (the 17th day of the 1st month-Luke 23:56). Friday, the 16th day of the 1st month that year was the "work" day in which the women BOUGHT and PREPARED the burial spices/ointments. Gerhard, you have to put ALL of the Scriptures together to get it right. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.