How come good Friday is only two days from Easter Sunday?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shalom Gerhard, a couple of questions about the "BONE-DAY."


Did Noah enter the ark on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 7:13)

Did Abraham circumcise his whole house on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 17:23)

Was Abraham and Ishmael circumcised on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 17:26)

Is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be observed on the "BONE-DAY?" (Exodus 12:17)

Israel went out from Egypt on the "BONE-DAY?" (Exodus 12:41 & Exodus 12:51)

Bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears can be eaten UNTIL the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:14)

Pentecost/Shavuot is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:21)

Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:28-30)

Yahweh spoke to Moses on the "BONE-DAY?" (Deuteronomy 32:48)

The morrow after Passover is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Joshua 5:11)

The cave's remain until the "BONE-DAY?" (Joshua 10:27)

The Children of Israel rebelled and transgressed unto the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 2:3)

In the ninth year, the tenth month, the tenth day is the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 24:1-2)

The city was smitten in the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 40:1)


It seems that "BONE-DAY" of yours is used quite often in the OT. I just wonder what it means? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-come-good-friday-is-only-two-days-from-easter-sunday.8004545/page-60#post-71265390#1213

You have made a wondrous discovery. Discovery is to see what all have all the while seen, then to think what no one ever has thought.

God bless


<<Did Noah enter the ark on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 7:13)>>

Yes. The word for “ark” is the word for “coffin”. They were all buried in the flood. 1Peter 3:20 2Peter 2:5 Hebrews 11:7.


<<Did Abraham circumcise his whole house on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 17:23)

Was Abraham and Ishmael circumcised on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 17:26)>>

Yes. And “that which remained” was burned with fire like “that which remained” of the passover like “that which remained”, the body of Jesus, was buried.


<<Is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be observed on the "BONE-DAY?" (Exodus 12:17)>>

Yes. Verse 18.

In Exodus having been the historical exodus, and the “three days” of the passover, “three days” indistinguishable of “thick darkness” in the land of the worshippers of the rising sun, only the date, “on the fourteenth” sunrise-day, is used. As soon as Israel had entered Canaan however, the date changed to fit in with the new sunset reckoned days. Joshua 5:11 Numbers 33:3


<<Israel went out from Egypt on the "BONE-DAY?" (Exodus 12:41 & Exodus 12:51)>>

Yes. “Bone-Day” the 14th and 15th and 16th. But Exodus 12:41,51 refer specifically to “That Night” of the fifteenth “to be solemnly observed” with eating passover, vv.18-20. Also “Bone-Day” in Leviticus 23:21 and 11.


<<Bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears can be eaten UNTIL the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:14)>>

Yes. It is presupposed in Joshua—because it was the week of ulb—that no leavened bread, no leavened parched corn, not even leavened fresh, green or old produce if you will, can be eaten.


<<Pentecost/Shavuot is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:21)>>

No. Leviticus 23:21 is not about the eating as such on Bone-Day the 15th, it is about the “proclamation” or institution of the feast. Verse 21,22 is chiasmic. See post #1169 on the structure of the chapter.


<<Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:28-30)>>

Yes. In the Hebrew. The KJV does not translate like it does in the Exodus and Leviticus incidences of ‘etsem-yom’ with “selfsame day”, but only with “same day”. Which I think was very observant to do. Nevertheless the Day of Atonement was also a ‘feast’ with killing and disposing of remains –necessary elements in burial.


<<Yahweh spoke to Moses on the "BONE-DAY?" (Deuteronomy 32:48)>>

Yes. Moses’death and burial was imminent.


<<The morrow after Passover is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Joshua 5:11)>>

Yes. The day or the morning after the 14th passover was also “Bone-Day” because “eating” is a form of burial-by-digestion and burning the remains a form of burial by interment of the ashes, “dust to dust”.


<<The cave's remain until the "BONE-DAY?" (Joshua 10:27)>>

No, no word and no thought like “until” exists in the Text. Don’t say it, don’t think it. “They cast (a closure) of stones to the tomb that Selfsame BONE-Day.”


<<The Children of Israel rebelled and transgressed unto the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 2:3)>>

Yes. Like men in the day of Noah and “the waters” or “big rain” or “the flood” filled the measure of their iniquity and the LORD recompensed.


<<In the ninth year, the tenth month, the tenth day is the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 24:1-2)>>

Yes. What a majestic chapter! Just read verse 10!


<<The city was smitten in the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 40:1)>>

Yes. The Bone-Day was the 10th day the passover as searched out, chosen and penned on until the 14th when it was slaughtered. The Christ fulfilled it so perfectly. And Israel proleptically, having passed through the Jordan on “on the tenth day of the First Month”—here identified a BURIAL-AND-RESURRECTION from the watery grave, day!


Marvelous! BEAUTIFUL! Can you think of anything portraying God in Christ’s Salvation better, more august, more humbling, more compelling unto worship and adoration of our God and Saviour, Lord and King!?

 

[ImAHebrew]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-come-good-friday-is-only-two-days-from-easter-sunday.8004545/page-60#post-71265390#1213

You have made a wondrous discovery. Discovery is to see what all have all the while seen, then to think what no one ever has thought.

God bless


<<Did Noah enter the ark on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 7:13)>>

Yes. The word for “ark” is the word for “coffin”. They were all buried in the flood. 1Peter 3:20 2Peter 2:5 Hebrews 11:7.


<<Did Abraham circumcise his whole house on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 17:23)

Was Abraham and Ishmael circumcised on the "BONE-DAY?" (Genesis 17:26)>>

Yes. And “that which remained” was burned with fire like “that which remained” of the passover like “that which remained”, the body of Jesus, was buried.


<<Is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be observed on the "BONE-DAY?" (Exodus 12:17)>>

Yes. Verse 18.

In Exodus having been the historical exodus, and the “three days” of the passover, “three days” indistinguishable of “thick darkness” in the land of the worshippers of the rising sun, only the date, “on the fourteenth” sunrise-day, is used. As soon as Israel had entered Canaan however, the date changed to fit in with the new sunset reckoned days. Joshua 5:11 Numbers 33:3


<<Israel went out from Egypt on the "BONE-DAY?" (Exodus 12:41 & Exodus 12:51)>>

Yes. “Bone-Day” the 14th and 15th and 16th. But Exodus 12:41,51 refer specifically to “That Night” of the fifteenth “to be solemnly observed” with eating passover, vv.18-20. Also “Bone-Day” in Leviticus 23:21 and 11.


<<Bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears can be eaten UNTIL the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:14)>>

Yes. It is presupposed in Joshua—because it was the week of ulb—that no leavened bread, no leavened parched corn, not even leavened fresh, green or old produce if you will, can be eaten.


<<Pentecost/Shavuot is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:21)>>

No. Leviticus 23:21 is not about the eating as such on Bone-Day the 15th, it is about the “proclamation” or institution of the feast. Verse 21,22 is chiasmic. See post #1169 on the structure of the chapter.


<<Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Leviticus 23:28-30)>>

Yes. In the Hebrew. The KJV does not translate like it does in the Exodus and Leviticus incidences of ‘etsem-yom’ with “selfsame day”, but only with “same day”. Which I think was very observant to do. Nevertheless the Day of Atonement was also a ‘feast’ with killing and disposing of remains –necessary elements in burial.


<<Yahweh spoke to Moses on the "BONE-DAY?" (Deuteronomy 32:48)>>

Yes. Moses’death and burial was imminent.


<<The morrow after Passover is on the "BONE-DAY?" (Joshua 5:11)>>

Yes. The day or the morning after the 14th passover was also “Bone-Day” because “eating” is a form of burial-by-digestion and burning the remains a form of burial by interment of the ashes, “dust to dust”.


<<The cave's remain until the "BONE-DAY?" (Joshua 10:27)>>

No, no word and no thought like “until” exists in the Text. Don’t say it, don’t think it. “They cast (a closure) of stones to the tomb that Selfsame BONE-Day.”


<<The Children of Israel rebelled and transgressed unto the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 2:3)>>

Yes. Like men in the day of Noah and “the waters” or “big rain” or “the flood” filled the measure of their iniquity and the LORD recompensed.


<<In the ninth year, the tenth month, the tenth day is the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 24:1-2)>>

Yes. What a majestic chapter! Just read verse 10!


<<The city was smitten in the "BONE-DAY?" (Ezekiel 40:1)>>

Yes. The Bone-Day was the 10th day the passover as searched out, chosen and penned on until the 14th when it was slaughtered. The Christ fulfilled it so perfectly. And Israel proleptically, having passed through the Jordan on “on the tenth day of the First Month”—here identified a BURIAL-AND-RESURRECTION from the watery grave, day!


Marvelous! BEAUTIFUL! Can you think of anything portraying God in Christ’s Salvation better, more august, more humbling, more compelling unto worship and adoration of our God and Saviour, Lord and King!?

Shalom Gerhard, so a "BONE-DAY" to you is a BURIAL-AND-RESURRECTION day. And you claim that Pentecost is not a "BONE-DAY?" Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[ImAHebrew]

Nothing is <<simple logic here.>> You assume the sheaf was waved. You assume it was the Sabbath. You assume the eating after the passover, You assume the eating of whatever could not occur UNTIL whatever. You assume everything then on strength of your halve a dozen pure assumptions, draw your simple logical uncomplicated conclusions, not quoting a single Scripture, just bracketing in two Scriptures from different Books and contexts altogether.

I think it is past high time you stop try your luck-by-confusion any further.

Shalom Gerhard, making "assumptions" is something you do all the time? You have made an assumption that Yahweh "redeemed them out of the land Egypt ON THE SABBATH THE SEVENTH DAY," and why is it that YOUR assumption is "simple logic" and my assumption is "luck-by-confusion?" My assumption that they ATE on the morrow after the Sabbath/Passover is based upon what Yahweh commanded that would happen WHEN they entered into the Land (Leviticus 23:10). The Children of Israel ENTERED in the Land, and they did REAP of the harvest (oh, I'm sorry, another assumption), therefore, they were able to EAT on the MORROW after the 14th day of the month. Joshua does not say they ate on the morrow after the 15th day of the month (that is your WRONG assumption), as Joshua 5:10 CLEARLY says it was the 14th day of the month that they KEPT the Passover, and THEN on the VERY NEXT DAY (the BONE-DAY) they ATE. Why do you keep assuming things that are incorrect? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Rank]

Listen, I don't know where we crossed swords. But let's start over.

My background is that I have studied this stuff academically for almost twenty years. Please know that nothing I say is a matter of opinion, except where specified. I'm quoting or referring source material. I'm not telling you the count starts from the 16th because of any interpretation, or reference to some anti-Christian sentiment by the Jews centuries after the fact. The dispute between the sects predates the authorship of the Megillat Ta'anit in the first century. Josephus, who lived in the first century, records that the count starts on the 16th. The Talmud states that the count starts from the 16th. Maimonides says that it starts on the 16th.

In short, I'm not arguing with you about how to interpret it. I'm telling you how it was done. You don't have to agree, but I'm still correct. The count, in Jesus' day, started on the 16th.

Thanks. As for the reply... The Talmud wasn't penned until between 200 and 400 and Rambam wasn't born until the mid-1100's. Neither then can be used as witnesses, they are too far outside the scope of being "time period references." Josephus is another story but Josephus, while a time period source, was also a Hellenistic Jew which places him outside what we would call the "Orthodoxy" of first century Judaism. He might be right, being Hellenistic doesn't mean he is wrong about everything, but that has to be kept in mind. Allowing him, that gives you one source, not three.

For me, AFraizer, I simply look at the Hebrew. The count begins the day after haShabbat not haShabbaton. I recognize that the first and last day of Unleavened Bread are not called Sabbath's but both are said to have "no customary work" done on those days. They are a miqra, a holy assembly of the people and two of only 7. They are treated as Sabbaths, even the Targumim, written before Yeshua, declare these to be days where no work is done. To the Jew in that day these are Sabbaths and even without the word in the text, the fact that is repeated 'do not work' gives it that status. So, when it says to count from haShabbat, we count from haShabbat, the weekly Sabbath. At least brother, that is what I do and will continue to do until Yeshua corrects me... which he might do. I don't fear being wrong, we're all wrong about more than we realize. Blessings.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Rabbines <<in reaction to the Christians>>?!

There were no Christians before the Rabbis. And Christians reacting to <<the Rabbinic interpretation>> must be Christians long after the close of the apostolic age (the first century AD).

That really isn't true. The idea of a rabbi existed before Christianity, but Rabbinic authority did not. I don't have time to get into it all... some of it might be taken as semantics anyway... but this book was very enlightening for me. I think the first 4 chapters (at least) should be read by anyone serious about first and early second century Judaic history.

I have no read the book you mentioned on Pentecost. Perhaps you are correct.. I don't fear being wrong. When the Lord returns and sets up his kingdom, we will be doing it as God desires. Right now we do things as best we can, as best we understand, under the conditions we currently live in. Correction is coming for us all in more places than we might comfortably expect. Shalom.

 

[Ken Rank]

Leviticus 23 is it that deals with two things. You know which things. Leviticus 23 SUPPLIES the Index to it, chapter 23. And to confirm, Leviticus 23 SUPPLIES a Summary. The Index is in front. The Summary is in the middle. In between Index and Summary Leviticus 23 deals with two "FEASTS of the LORD". Not with seven as many claim. And looked at closely enough, the two "FEASTS of the LORD", are one: the passover--the passover twice a year. The main passover first, between verses 1,2 to verses 22, the spring passover. And in between verses 23 and 44, the lesser passover in the fall.
These two-in-one feasts are written in chiasmic structure like sinews over a joint of bone-structure of a body. Which explains the apparent -- let's call them, knees and elbows of the legs and arms of the chapter.
The legs first. From the feet up to the knee, the tibia and fibula (the “bones” of the crucified broken), the 14th the KILL-day, and the 15th the BURIAL-day -- verses 4 to 14b/15a. Verse 16 is the knee; and from it up to verse 20, is the femur, the feast of weeks the days from and including the 16th of the month to and including the "Fiftieth" day "counted", 'Pentecost'.
The hip-chiasm consists of the "proclamation" or explanation or description in verses 21 and 20 of the legs down and the upper body. The body or 'shabbath-shabbathon' feasts, rest or stand or depend completely on the legs-structure underneath them. The feasts before the Seventh Month the feasts in the first months of the new year are just feast-days centering around the Burial-Day on the 15th which is called or rather referred to as "the sabbath", simply. Simply because it is no 'double-sabbath', 'shabbath-shabbaton' NOR is it "The Seventh Day Sabbath-day-of-rest The Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD" defined and excluded and set apart in the INDEX or Introduction in verses 2,3,4! The NT describes THIS "Sabbath" indeed as the "IN-BETWEEN-sabbath" - 'metaksu sabbaton' which in historic context, was the CHIASMIC EVENT OR TRANSFER from the Church being exclusively Jewish to the Church becoming exclusively Gentile -- Acts 13 which virtually is almost a repeat of Acts 2 and PENTECOST.

So the hip chiasm or cross-over in Leviticus 23:21,22 comes after Pentecost and introduces the SETTLED CHURCH -- Israel SETTLED in Canaan and INSTITUTIONALISING its feasts and sabbaths. HENCE "sabbaths-based-on-sabbaths" the 'high-sabbaths' of the latter halve of the year and feasts of fall, the DEPENDENT feasts surrounding the FIFTEENTH day, remarkable, of the Seventh Month.

And as there is a chiasmic joint between the basic days before the 15th day of the First Month and seven weeks up to the fiftieth day, JUST SO there is a chiasmic joint in the text in verses 33 to 38 between the feasts of the days-of-atonement and the seven days feast of tabernacles in the Seventh Month. And the great dividing factor of distinction, again, is conspicuously lifted out and defined to be "the Sabbath/Sabbaths-OF-THE-LORD, BESIDES...the feasts of the LORD", whether they be "PROCLAIMED" / "FORMULATED" / "INSTITUTIONALISED" "sabbaths" ordinarily, or "latter-sabbaths" / 'shabbath-shabbaton' / "great-day(s)-of-Sabbath(s)" indifferently.

Now, dear Ken Rank, the "haShabbath" the dispute at present is about, you tell us, please, where, in which section or chiasmic section of the text of Leviticus 23, have you found it? Because you could have found it in ONLY ONE of either the Index in verse 3 and Summary in verse 38, or the 'body-text' in between!
Have you found your <<haShabbat>> in verses 3 or 38, you might have had a case. BUT YOU DID NOT. You found your <<haSabbat>> IN BETWEEN. It therefore MUST be no Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD, but MUST be an "In-Between-Sabbath" which it indeed, is, being the very central and chiasmic "fifteenth day of the First Month", the passover-"sabbath" referred to in the phrase "after the sabbath" in Leviticus 23:11,15,16.

I shared my explanation to Afrazier today, look for it. I admit, the word haShabbaton does not appear in the text... but since the first and last days of ULB are not only holy assemblies but also days in which "no work is done," then they are treated as Sabbaths... and called Sabbaths by Jews and feast keeping Jews alike. Why? Because of the "no work" statement. Gotta run.

 

[AFrazier]

Thanks. As for the reply... The Talmud wasn't penned until between 200 and 400 and Rambam wasn't born until the mid-1100's. Neither then can be used as witnesses, they are too far outside the scope of being "time period references." Josephus is another story but Josephus, while a time period source, was also a Hellenistic Jew which places him outside what we would call the "Orthodoxy" of first century Judaism. He might be right, being Hellenistic doesn't mean he is wrong about everything, but that has to be kept in mind. Allowing him, that gives you one source, not three.

For me, AFraizer, I simply look at the Hebrew. The count begins the day after haShabbat not haShabbaton. I recognize that the first and last day of Unleavened Bread are not called Sabbath's but both are said to have "no customary work" done on those days. They are a miqra, a holy assembly of the people and two of only 7. They are treated as Sabbaths, even the Targumim, written before Yeshua, declare these to be days where no work is done. To the Jew in that day these are Sabbaths and even without the word in the text, the fact that is repeated 'do not work' gives it that status. So, when it says to count from haShabbat, we count from haShabbat, the weekly Sabbath. At least brother, that is what I do and will continue to do until Yeshua corrects me... which he might do. I don't fear being wrong, we're all wrong about more than we realize. Blessings.

Thanksgiving dates to the 1600s, but we know that it is the third Thursday in November, because we practice it. The Talmud isn't the arbitrary record of things they didn't know, but a collection of discussions of things they did know, taken from the scriptures and other writings in their possession. It is a valid source.

One of the reasons for the debate between the sects was the fact that "Sabbath" in Hebrew in the scripture in question was vague.

You'll have to provide evidence that Josephus was a Hellenic Jew. According to his own writings, he was born and raised a proper Jew. He was not only a proper Jew, but was a Levite of the first course living in Jerusalem, and was descended from the Asamoneans. There's really no proof that he was anything other than a proper Jew. And he would have participated in all the sacrifices and rites of the temple. Meaning that the guy was intimately familiar with how things were done. IF you consider him the only source of credibility because he was contemporaneous to Jesus, his testimony alone is sufficient to demonstrate how things were done in that time period.

From the Life of Josephus:

The family from which I am derived is not an ignoble one, but hath descended all along from the priests; and as nobility among several people is of a different origin, so with us to be of the sacerdotal dignity, is an indication of the splendor of a family. Now, I am not only sprung from a sacerdotal family in general, but from the first of the twenty-four courses; and as among us there is not only a considerable difference between one family of each course and another, I am of the chief family of that first course also; nay, further, by my mother I am of the royal blood; for the children of Asamoneus, from whom that family was derived, had both the office of the high priesthood, and the dignity of a king, for a long time together. I will accordingly set down my progenitors in order. My grandfather's father was named Simon, with the addition of Psellus: he lived at the same time with that son of Simon the high priest, who first of all the high priests was named Hyrcanus. This Simon Psellus had nine sons, one of whom was Matthias, called Ephlias: he married the daughter of Jonathan the high priest, which Jonathan was the first of the sons of Asamoneus, who was high priest, and was the brother of Simon the high priest also. This Matthias had a son called Matthias Curtus, and that in the first year of the government of Hyrcanus: his son's name was Joseph, born in the ninth year of the reign of Alexandra: his son Matthias was born in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus; as was I born to Matthias in the first year of the reign of Caius Caesar. I have three sons: Hyrcanus, the eldest, was born in the fourth year of the reign of Vespasian, as was Justus born in the seventh, and Agrippa in the ninth. Thus have I set down the genealogy of my family as I have found it described in the public records, and so bid adieu to those who calumniate me [as of a lower original].

Now, my father Matthias was not only eminent on account of his nobility, but had a higher commendation on account of his righteousness, and was in great reputation in Jerusalem, the greatest city we have. I was myself brought up with my brother, whose name was Matthias, for he was my own brother, by both father and mother; and I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law. And when I was about sixteen years old, I had a mind to make trim of the several sects that were among us. These sects are three: - The first is that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Sadducees, and the third that of the Essenes, as we have frequently told you; for I thought that by this means I might choose the best, if I were once acquainted with them all; so I contented myself with hard fare, and underwent great difficulties, and went through them all. Nor did I content myself with these trials only; but when I was informed that one, whose name was Banus, lived in the desert, and used no other clothing than grew upon trees, and had no other food than what grew of its own accord, and bathed himself in cold water frequently, both by night and by day, in order to preserve his chastity, I imitated him in those things, and continued with him three years. So when I had accomplished my desires, I returned back to the city, being now nineteen years old, and began to conduct myself according to the rules of the sect of the Pharisees, which is of kin to the sect of the Stoics, as the Greeks call them.

 

[Ken Rank]

Thanksgiving dates to the 1600s, but we know that it is the third Thursday in November, because we practice it. The Talmud isn't the arbitrary record of things they didn't know, but a collection of discussions of things they did know, taken from the scriptures and other writings in their possession. It is a valid source.

A lot of it comes from the Tosefta and Mishnah, but most doesn't. As for Josephus... I don't have time today to get into it. But, in short... he switched sides and favored Greek philosophy. Still tied to his traditions, his views were not cleanly Hebraic. It isn't important anyway.... they didn't work on the first and last day of ULB... it was set aside like a Sabbath without that word being in the text... just "do no work" appears there. By the time you get to the NT, you have cultural additions in the text whether you (by you I mean Christians in general, not YOU as you obviously study beyond the depth of most) recognize them or not. One example... Passover (which is really the week of Unleavened Bread but culturally called Passover) is called, "a feast of the Jews" in the NT. It isn't a "feast of the Jews" as Lev. 23 very plainly states this to be one of the "feasts of YHWH." But, because only the Jews were keeping Passover at that time (Israel being still in the nations) then calling it a feast of the Jews is a cultural line in the text. So, they had to take Yeshua down before the Sabbath... Pesach is the 14th and not a Sabbath, the 15th isn't called one in Leviticus but is a day where "no work shall be done." Therefore, he had to be taken down and entombed before what they considered to be a Sabbath began, the first day of ULB. It is STILL treated like and called a Sabbath by Jews and Torah keeping Christians today.

 

[AFrazier]

A lot of it comes from the Tosefta and Mishnah, but most doesn't. As for Josephus... I don't have time today to get into it. But, in short... he switched sides and favored Greek philosophy. Still tied to his traditions, his views were not cleanly Hebraic. It isn't important anyway.... they didn't work on the first and last day of ULB... it was set aside like a Sabbath without that word being in the text... just "do no work" appears there. By the time you get to the NT, you have cultural additions in the text whether you (by you I mean Christians in general, not YOU as you obviously study beyond the depth of most) recognize them or not. One example... Passover (which is really the week of Unleavened Bread but culturally called Passover) is called, "a feast of the Jews" in the NT. It isn't a "feast of the Jews" as Lev. 23 very plainly states this to be one of the "feasts of YHWH." But, because only the Jews were keeping Passover at that time (Israel being still in the nations) then calling it a feast of the Jews is a cultural line in the text. So, they had to take Yeshua down before the Sabbath... Pesach is the 14th and not a Sabbath, the 15th isn't called one in Leviticus but is a day where "no work shall be done." Therefore, he had to be taken down and entombed before what they considered to be a Sabbath began, the first day of ULB. It is STILL treated like and called a Sabbath by Jews and Torah keeping Christians today.

I'm not in disagreement with the first and last days of ulb being considered holiday sabbaths. In fact, my argument is in support of that. The 16th being the first day in the count to Pentecost is only possible if the 15th is, in fact, a sabbath.

And to reiterate, my goal is not to say how Pentecost should be counted, but how it was counted in the first century. Right or wrong, Josephus being Hellenic or full Hebrew, it was counted from the 16th. Not because I'm interpreting it that way, but because someone who was there, regardless of his sympathies, is an authority on the subject whom neither of us can argue with. He was a priest, served in the temple, and knew firsthand when the count started, despite any cultural leanings he may or may not have had.

Can you not agree that his firsthand knowledge and experience trumps any interpretation we may have two thousand years after the fact?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shalom Gerhard, so a "BONE-DAY" to you is a BURIAL-AND-RESURRECTION day. And you claim that Pentecost is not a "BONE-DAY?" Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Passover days of kill, of bury, of resurrection -- the three days thick darkness in Egypt at the exodus are the main and thus called, Bone Days. Also the tenth day of the First Month (also a passover day) is called a Bone-Day.
Even the days called ''Bone Day" in the Seventh Month, are 'Little Passover' days and have to do with the killing and disposal of the remains of the sacrifice.

But Pentecost is not called "Bone Day", Leviticus 23:21 and 22 do not belong with verses 18-20, but apply to the days the harvest was "cut off"--"killed" and "stored" in the sanctuary the sheaf having been "brought to the priest" and "stored for you", on 14 and 15 Abib. Leviticus 23:10/11a. Verses 21,22 transfer the law-giving from the original passover to the Seventh Month's days of Atonement and Feast of tabernacles or 'Little Passover'. As can be deduced from the word "proclaim", the institutionalisation of the passover can be discerned in verses 21,22, in contrast with foregoing and following feasts of Pentecost in the spring to summer months, and the Seventh Month's or fall to winter's feasts.

So, yes, what you say is what I believe.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Joshua 5:10 CLEARLY says it was the 14th day of the month that they KEPT the Passover, and THEN on the VERY NEXT DAY (the BONE-DAY) they ATE. Why do you keep assuming things that are incorrect?

The kill-day is passover the first day of. The eat day is passover the second day of.

<<the 14th day of the month they KEPT the Passover>> = the 14th day of the month they killed the passover: on "Bone-Day", "the head first day they removed leaven on".

And then on the VERY NEXT DAY (the "BONE-DAY" "the first day seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread") they ATE.

What things have I assumed that are incorrect?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Because of the "no work" statement

That statement is not a <<"no work" statement>>; it is a "no servile work", statement.
And in Leviticus 23 it is only "the Seventh Day" that is called "Sabbath OF THE LORD". The passover-sabbath is called or referred to as just that, "the day after the sabbath".

If anything could make a difference, is it not the LORD'S ownership, "the Sabbath OF THE LORD"!?
But of all the other 'sabbaths', it is written, "YOU --man-- must calculate them to their SEASON". They were no Sabbaths of the LORD, but of the "season(s)".

 

[ImAHebrew]

The kill-day is passover the first day of. The eat day is passover the second day of.

<<the 14th day of the month they KEPT the Passover>> = the 14th day of the month they killed the passover: on "Bone-Day", "the head first day they removed leaven on".

And then on the VERY NEXT DAY (the "BONE-DAY" "the first day seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread") they ATE.

What things have I assumed that are incorrect?

Shalom Gerhard, your confusion comes in from what you think they ATE. On the NEXT day, AFTER the Keeping of the Passover (they KEPT the Passover ON the 14th), they ATE from the PRODUCE of the LAND. Why are you changing what it says they ATE? There is NO mention of them having a second day eating of the Passover, ONLY that they ate from the produce of the land on the morrow AFTER the 14th, on the 15th day of the 1st month, and for them to do so, the waving had to take place on the 15th day this year, on the morrow after the combined Sabbath and Passover. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm not in disagreement with the first and last days of ulb being considered holiday sabbaths. In fact, my argument is in support of that. The 16th being the first day in the count to Pentecost is only possible if the 15th is, in fact, a sabbath.

And to reiterate, my goal is not to say how Pentecost should be counted, but how it was counted in the first century. Right or wrong, Josephus being Hellenic or full Hebrew, it was counted from the 16th. Not because I'm interpreting it that way, but because someone who was there, regardless of his sympathies, is an authority on the subject whom neither of us can argue with. He was a priest, served in the temple, and knew firsthand when the count started, despite any cultural leanings he may or may not have had.

Can you not agree that his firsthand knowledge and experience trumps any interpretation we may have two thousand years after the fact?

I get it, we just don't agree on when to start counting. If the 16th is a Wednesday which is could be... then if you counted 7 Sabbath's like the command states I am not sure your numbers will work out. We count 7 Sabbaths and then the next day is Shavuot. Perhaps... and this is within the scope of the language, counting 7 Sabbath simply means "weeks" but even then you have an issue.

Lev 23:16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord.

If you start counting on Thursday (hypothetically) then you can get to 50 and end "the day after the 7th Sabbath." I don't see it as 'week' there, I see it as "Sabbath." That's how I see this.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

That statement is not a <<"no work" statement>>; it is a "no servile work", statement.
And in Leviticus 23 it is only "the Seventh Day" that is called "Sabbath OF THE LORD". The passover-sabbath is called or referred to as just that, "the day after the sabbath".

If anything could make a difference, is it not the LORD'S ownership, "the Sabbath OF THE LORD"!?
But of all the other 'sabbaths', it is written, "YOU --man-- must calculate them to their SEASON". They were no Sabbaths of the LORD, but of the "season(s)".

I gave my reasons for coming to this... doesn't look like you went to the other post and read it... I won't repeat it. Our difference isn't in Lev. 23, it is in the NT wording.

It doesn't matter... I am going to count as my local congregation counts for the sake of continuity within the community that I belong to. When Yeshua returns, he will correct whoever is wrong... which will be all of us for one thing or another.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Der Alter,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

I began taking Greek language courses during my freshman year in college, and I believe that I took a Greek course either classical or biblical Greek throughout my four years in college. My first Greek grammar was the Kaegi Grammar which I no longer possess. My first Greek New Testament I believe was a Nestle-Aland Greek text which I no longer possess. My personal Greek New Testament which I now use was edited by Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce M. Metzger and Allen Wikgren. This edition was copyrighted in 1966. I own a Lexicon Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek- English Lexicon. The impression for this Lexicon was made in 1963, and I am fairly certain that I purchased this Lexicon sometime between 1964 and 1968.

One little book that I have gotten a lot of use from is A Short Syntax Of New Testament Greek by The Rev. H.P.V. Nunn, M.A. This little Syntax was published in 1963, and I paid $1.95 back then for my edition. I also own A Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, 4th Revised and Augmented Edition, 1952. I believe that I purchased this Lexicon while I was in college, but I do not remember for certain.

I also own several other Greek grammars. I own a New Testament Greek For Beginners by J. Gresham Machen, D.D., Litt., D. copyright renewed in 1951. I paid $8.95 for this grammar. I also own A Greek Grammar of the New Testament by Curtis Vaugham and Virtus E. Gideon copyrighted 1979.

One of my favorite resources is The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised edited by Harold K. Moulton printed October 1979. The resource is invaluable to me because I can no longer remember offhand the Greek declensions of nouns etc, and the conjugations of the verbs. I look each one up when I make my translations of the Greek Scriptures, and while I make use of the various translations, I do not depend upon their translations to determine my own translation. This takes a whole lot of work on my part.

Because I make my own translations, I knew immediately when you quoted Young's Literal translation of Luke 24:21 that "τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν" is in the accusative case and therefore not the subject of ἄγει. If I may suggest a course of action for you given your extensive background in the Greek Language, why not take the time to make your own translations as I have done and forgo the translations of the Greek Scholars upon which you seem wholly dependent.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shalom Gerhard, your confusion comes in from what you think they ATE. On the NEXT day, AFTER the Keeping of the Passover (they KEPT the Passover ON the 14th), they ATE from the PRODUCE of the LAND. Why are you changing what it says they ATE? There is NO mention of them having a second day eating of the Passover, ONLY that they ate from the produce of the land on the morrow AFTER the 14th, on the 15th day of the 1st month, and for them to do so, the waving had to take place on the 15th day this year, on the morrow after the combined Sabbath and Passover. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

They ate from the land unleavened cakes because the seven days ulb were not seven days yet "on the day after the passover" on day1 was killed.
10th day was the Sabbath when they crossed the Jordan. God declared with the Fourth Commandment!
11th 12th 13th they were circumcised --First Second Third Days of the week-- so that they could eat the passover ...
14th they kept passover by killing it --on the Fourth Day of the week (Wednesday).
15th "the day after" the Fifth Day of the week its evening (Wednesday night Fifth DOW) they ATE "the first of seven days ulb."
16th Sixth Day (Thursday night) was but the second day they ate ulb.
17th Sabbath (Friday night) the third of the seven days ulb.
18th First DOW (Sat night, Sunday) the fourth of the seven days ulb,
19th Second DOW (Sunday night, Monday) fifth day ulb.
20th Third DOW (Monday night, Tuesday) sixth day ulb.
21st Fourth DOW (Tuesday night, Wednesday) seventh day ulb.
From the evening ('ereb') on the 15th to evening ('ereb') of the 21st are seven nights observed with eating ulb.
Exodus 12:18, "In the First Month, the fourteenth day of the month, at 'ereb'..." which is after sunset evening and therefore on the fifteenth day of the First Month "...ye shall eat ulb (including) on the one and twentieth day of the month at 'ereb'.

 

[AFrazier]

I get it, we just don't agree on when to start counting. If the 16th is a Wednesday which is could be... then if you counted 7 Sabbath's like the command states I am not sure your numbers will work out. We count 7 Sabbaths and then the next day is Shavuot. Perhaps... and this is within the scope of the language, counting 7 Sabbath simply means "weeks" but even then you have an issue.

Lev 23:16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord.

If you start counting on Thursday (hypothetically) then you can get to 50 and end "the day after the 7th Sabbath." I don't see it as 'week' there, I see it as "Sabbath." That's how I see this.

Blessings.
Ken

There is a holy convocation at or after Pentecost as well. And Deuteronomy says weeks rather than sabbaths. That's part of the argument that was made once upon a time.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shalom Gerhard, I'm sorry, but you misunderstood what I said again. My point of mentioning Leviticus 23:10 was not that I was saying the Sabbath was mentioned in this verse, rather that it was a verse which told the Children of Israel what they were supposed to do WHEN they entered INTO the Land. They were to harvest a Sheaf, it would be the FirstFruit, and THEN on the MORROW after the Sabbath (weekly Sabbath), they would WAVE this Sheaf (Leviticus 23:11). THEN, on the day they have WAVED this Sheaf (morrow AFTER the Sabbath), they are to OFFER a Lamb (Leviticus 23:12), and NO eating UNTIL this offering has been made (Leviticus 23:14).

So again I ask you Gerhard, on what day could the EATING occur on, the EATING of the produce of the Land, ONCE they had entered it? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Joshua 4 and 5 prove once for all the First Sheaf was "revealed" "and shaken" on any day of the week "on the day after the sabbath"-OF-THE-PASSOVER.

At the exodus passover it was another matter. There the 16th was on the weekly Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath was therefore "the day after the sabbath" of the passover --in that instance, the Sixth Day and perfect type of the instance of Jesus' Last Passover Suffering of Yahweh.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Lev 23:16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord.

If you start counting on Thursday (hypothetically) then you can get to 50 and end "the day after the 7th Sabbath." I don't see it as 'week' there, I see it as "Sabbath." That's how I see this.

Exactly how I see it!

Passover Calendar - Month’s Feast of Sabbaths

Well, not exactly; because I see it as "seven Sabbaths-weeks and the day after".

It means every set of seven days begins on and with the Seventh Day Sabbath and ends on and with the Sixth Day of the week. The day after the last seven-days and last Sixth Day of the week, will be Shavuot Pentecost.

Important, the exodus passover was passover extraodinaire. Deuteronomy shows the general harvest-feast of weeks of seven sets of seven days each of any days of the week, not seven sets of seven days each starting with the Sabbath of the week as in Leviticus.