How Christians should respond to new space images

[BeyondET]

You know the stars traverse from horizon to horizon like the sun, right? I could tell the hour by the position of Orion, in particular.

I'm listening how do you know what hour it is by Orion. What are your points of reference?

 

[coffee4u]

Indeed! Scripture isn't about trivialities like whether the Earth was x (a certain exact amount) years old at a certain point in events...

Instead of being about the truly unimportant question of how old the Earth is when event Y happened, the Bible is about Life or Death (it's an emergency: life or death, bring the electric paddles and save the dying person, now! -- for all of us for eternity!

That's why the Word is given -- to rescue us from our lost sinfulness and bring us reconciled to God. (so of course the bible isn't about chemistry or geology!...)

So, in Genesis chapter 1, if we can read with a truly open listening, it changes your brain in a wonderful way (I'm just testifying about what has happened to me factually, and repeatedly) -- it alters a person.

So that they enter a new state of mind.

And become better ready to hear the wonderfully deep and profound lessons in Genesis chapters 2-4 and beyond....

So, as you read Genesis 1 with true listening, you hear a profoundly powerful message -- that God has made Earth a "good", and a "very good" home for us -- this is repeated 7 times....

And if you can just hear that, it changes your heart.

Makes you better ready to listen to the Word....

Which is 50 times...no, one millions times more important than how old the Earth is (which is a comparative triviality, and that's why the bible never tell us that, just like it doesn't go into details about how chemistry works or how to build a bridge or whatever else random topics that are very useful, but all that other stuff (engineering, chemistry, how to make a bow, the age of Earth, how biology works, etc.) would not help bring us to God.

The Bible is meant to bring us out of our sinfulness, make us repent, and turn to God confessing our sins, to save our souls for eternity....

So, to help anyone that isn't already turned fully to Christ in faith for the remission of their sins, there is only one saving message, alone.

As Romans confirms to us, and Christ also:

3 Since they [Israel and all of humanity....] did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 10 - New International Version

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they...

www.biblegateway.com

As Christ confirms in many ways in the gospels -- only He, alone, is the Way to God....

No other message saves, we literally read.

I agree with much of this.
Yet there are still somethings which are true and somethings which are false and sometimes two things can both be true.

Its very possible that six days passed on earth and not elsewhere. It is an interesting thing to ponder but not something we can truly know.
What we do need to know from our perspective is that 6 days had passed where God created and that Adam was his special creation in his image.
That the seventh day was the sabbath day of rest.
That Adam and Eve were placed into a perfect garden and Adam's sin caused the fall.
That sin caused death and corruption of the world.
This is what God wants us to know. That we fell into sin and that he has a way of salvation for us. That these events literally happened the way they are described. If God breathed out stars while being out of time and they are somehow both young and old is of no importance. What he wnated us to know is that he made them on day 4 for mankind to have a way to judge times, navigate and to bring light.

If the stars were made on day 4 but are also old is not something we need to know because the truth of it would be far beyond our understanding.
That the stars look old to man who searches not for God but to uplift himself as being wise, is a great deception to those who do not trust God's word. Here is the proof says man that God does not exist or if he does he is a tyrant keeping knowledge from us. Ah yes I wonder why? (that is rhetorical) It is a great deception for those standing on the sand.

It is not a deception for anyone who reads Gods word as it is written and trusts him. We know that no matter how it may look that the stars were created on day 4.
Mans uplifting and trust in himself, in his own wisdom is the type of knowledge that causes men to lose faith in God or to change God into a vision of what and who they think God he should be. It is this that creates atheists. They assume incorrectly that man has the answers and that God's word really means something else. God's word is then relegated to being spiritual truth or even a fairy tale not actual truth. Once a person questions one area as truth and 'spiritulizes it away' it is easy to move onto others areas right up to questioning the cross and Jesus. Dangerous ground.

Evolution is a teaching of Satan I know that. Satan is the father of lies and anything that is the opposite of scripture is from him. Creation -evolution.
Man&woman - a hundred genders
Marriage - sexual freedom.
For every point God makes the world will have a counterfeit point.

 

[coffee4u]

Man was smart from the first breath 'huh' but couldn't make his own clothes.

I hope this is a joke.
You do realize that the clothing or coverings that God made for them had deep spiritual significance.
When the Bible talks about nakedness it is far more than the absence of clothing.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!” ​

Isaiah 47:3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your disgrace shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no one. ​

The clothing God made was the first shedding of blood. Adam wasn't allowed to shed blood. There was no death. The fact God killed an animal was a terrible thing meant to represent the blood Jesus would later shed.
Fig leaves or any other way man has to hide his spiritual nakedness and shame will not work. That to cover sin and shame requires the shedding of blood and they were symbolic of the salvation we have been given in Jesus Christ.​

 

[BeyondET]

I hope this is a joke.
You do realize that the clothing or coverings that God made for them had deep spiritual significance.
When the Bible talks about nakedness it is far more than the absence of clothing.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!” ​

Isaiah 47:3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your disgrace shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no one. ​

The clothing God made was the first shedding of blood. Adam wasn't allowed to shed blood. There was no death. The fact God killed an animal was a terrible thing meant to represent the blood Jesus would later shed.
Fig leaves or any other way man has to hide his spiritual nakedness and shame will not work. That to cover sin and shame requires the shedding of blood and they were symbolic of the salvation we have been given in Jesus Christ.​

You do realize that has nothing to do with what the poster said about how smart Adam was. They couldn't even leave a piece of friut alone.

Where did you come up with Adam wasn't aloud to shed blood?

Making clothes from the skin of trees is ancient.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm listening how do you know what hour it is by Orion. What are your points of reference?

The same as my point of reference following the path of the sun through the sky during the day. I'm outside walking around buildings. The starfield above appears to rotate across the sky relative to the positions of the buildings as the earth rotates. So, then, when Betelgeuse (the star of Orion's left shoulder) appeared over one building, it was 10 pm. When Betelgeuse had moved over another building it was 1 am, when it had dropped so low as to disappear behind the buildings, it was 5 am and my shift was nearly over.

 

[BeyondET]

Its very possible that six days passed on earth and not elsewhere.

It is an interesting thing to ponder but not something we can truly know.

That the stars look old to man who searches not for God but to uplift himself as being wise, is a great deception to those who do not trust God's word.

So you deceive yourself by pondering something you can't possibly know hmm.

You need to learn a little bit more about the difference between the lights, the great lights and the stars for they are all mentioned separately in scripture.

 

[BeyondET]

The same as my point of reference following the path of the sun through the sky during the day. I'm outside walking around buildings. The starfield above appears to rotate across the sky relative to the positions of the buildings as the earth rotates. So, then, when Betelgeuse (the star of Orion's left shoulder) appeared over one building, it was 10 pm. When Betelgeuse had moved over another building it was 1 am, when it had dropped so low as to disappear behind the buildings, it was 5 am and my shift was nearly over.

O I see, you looked at your mechanical clock each time you saw betelgeuse over a building, I can do the same with passing cars.

If you really wanted to do it without a mechanical clock at night. Look at the north star in the big dipper. It's like a mech clock but it's read backwards.

 

[coffee4u]

You do realize that has nothing to do with what the poster said about how smart Adam was. They couldn't even leave a piece of friut alone.

Where did you come up with Adam wasn't aloud to shed blood?

Making clothes from the skin of trees is ancient.

Have you studied the Bible? Do you understand spiritual matters? If not I would suggest you read scripture and reread and pray about it. Disagreeing is one thing but you seem to not understand spiritual matters. I don't mean this in a bad way either, it just seems you are reducing spiritual truths to something basic like clothes and fruit. Or perhaps you are joking as I asked before.

It wasn't about 'leaving a piece of fruit alone' it was about trusting and obeying God. Man's will verses God's will.

When I say there was no death, there was NO death. The world after creation looked nothing and worked nothing like it does now. We live on a corrupted groaning world.
Blood indicates death, man's sin is what brought in death.
God gave man and animals only plants to eat at creation.
Genesis 1:29
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
You can also find indications of how creatures lived together in verses about the remade earth, the new Eden. Which is why its a restoration, a restoration back to what? Back to how it was in Eden before the fall.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
For animals to change so drastically meant the fall changed this world in ways we can't even imagine.

When you repented of your sins and asked Jesus to be your Lord and savior what did you think you were signing up for? To go to heaven?
The new earth is the final destination. The goal is not heaven, heaven is the 'waiting room' until the resurrection of the body, after which comes the new earth or new Eden.
Romans 8:22-24 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.
The redemption of the body to live on the new earth is the hope. Right now we have spiritual redemption but not bodily redemption.

The new world will be:
Without the curse (just like Eden) Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse
Without death (Just like Eden) Revelation 21:4 Death shall be no more
With the tree of life twice (because there is no need for a tree to test mans obedience as all those in the new world have chosen God already) Revelation 22:2 On either side of the river was the tree of life
Sound familiar to Genesis? Because it is. It is the full circle from perfection-corruption-restoration.

 

[BeyondET]

Have you studied the Bible? Do you understand spiritual matters? If not I would suggest you read scripture and reread and pray about it. Disagreeing is one thing but you seem to not understand spiritual matters. I don't mean this in a bad way either, it just seems you are reducing spiritual truths to something basic like clothes and fruit. Or perhaps you are joking as I asked before.

It wasn't about 'leaving a piece of fruit alone' it was about trusting and obeying God. Man's will verses God's will.

When I say there was no death, there was NO death. The world after creation looked nothing and worked nothing like it does now. We live on a corrupted groaning world.
Blood indicates death, man's sin is what brought in death.
God gave man and animals only plants to eat at creation.
Genesis 1:29
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
You can also find indications of how creatures lived together in verses about the remade earth, the new Eden. Which is why its a restoration, a restoration back to what? Back to how it was in Eden before the fall.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
For animals to change so drastically meant the fall changed this world in ways we can't even imagine.

When you repented of your sins and asked Jesus to be your Lord and savior what did you think you were signing up for? To go to heaven?
The new earth is the final destination. The goal is not heaven, heaven is the 'waiting room' until the resurrection of the body, after which comes the new earth or new Eden.
Romans 8:22-24 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.
The redemption of the body to live on the new earth is the hope. Right now we have spiritual redemption but not bodily redemption.

The new world will be:
Without the curse (just like Eden) Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse
Without death (Just like Eden) Revelation 21:4 Death shall be no more
With the tree of life twice (because there is no need for a tree to test mans obedience as all those in the new world have chosen God already) Revelation 22:2 On either side of the river was the tree of life
Sound familiar to Genesis? Because it is. It is the full circle from perfection-corruption-restoration.

Disagreeing with me is not what your doing, but excusing me of not having spiritual discernment because I'm not agreeing with you.

I can read between the lines. It's bad anyway I look at it. You created a whole new world from scripture even before the Revelation.

 

[coffee4u]

So you deceive yourself by pondering something you can't possibly know hmm.

You need to learn a little bit more about the difference between the lights, the great lights and the stars for they are all mentioned separately in scripture.

I'm not pondering anything. I am saying people can, but this pondering and calculating should not be taken as truth. *sigh* I do not see the point in this conversation as you don't seem to understand a word that I say.

 

[BeyondET]

I'm not pondering anything. I am saying people can, but this pondering and calculating should not be taken as truth. *sigh* I do not see the point in this conversation as you don't seem to understand a word that I say.

Ok that's fine

 

[RDKirk]

O I see, you looked at your mechanical clock each time you saw betelgeuse over a building, I can do the same with passing cars.

If you really wanted to do it without a mechanical clock at night. Look at the north star in the big dipper. It's like a mech clock but it's read backwards.

I was explaining how ancient people could track the passage of time through the night.

Now I think you're being purposefully obtuse.

 

[BeyondET]

I was explaining how ancient people could track the passage of time through the night.

Now I think you're being purposefully obtuse.

That is a real thing, it's called the star clock look it up. The north star doesn't really move its the center of the clock in the night sky. And the dip moves counterclockwise its pretty accurate.

Months can be counted with constellations it's a bit off like time without mechanical devices and adjustments to calendars. Time is a wide range of understanding. Cross the event horizon of a black hole and time stops all together.

Everything in the universe is in its own time bubble, continues accordingly.

 

[RDKirk]

That is a real thing, it's called the star clock look it up. The north star doesn't really move its the center of the clock in the night sky. And the dip moves counterclockwise its pretty accurate.

Months can be counted with constellations it's a bit off like time without mechanical devices and adjustments to calendars. Time is a wide range of understanding. Cross the event horizon of a black hole and time stops all together.

Everything in the universe is in its own time bubble, continues accordingly.

So, indeed, you have been acting deliberately obtuse.

 

[BeyondET]

So, indeed, you have been acting deliberately obtuse.

Hmm, deliberately, that was disappointing

 

[Halbhh]

What we do need to know

Is that Christ died for our sins, to bring us to God.

Really, that's what we do "need" to know.

You don't even have to have a bible or an Old Testament to be saved. You don't even have to know who Peter was.....

....you don't even have to know about Moses....

You have to know that Christ Jesus died for you!

So, if someone mistakenly believes wrong doctrine W.2 about topic X -- it will not matter what they think about question X at all -- not even a micro bit -- if they believe in Christ Jesus and follow Him, doing as He taught us we must do.

This is so important. We understand this: no one has to belong to church denomination Z.1 in order to be saved.

Nor must anyone believe in Old Testament interpretation doctrine Y.3 to be saved.

But we Must believe on Jesus Christ, risen from the dead. and admit we are sinners who rely on Him for salvation from our sins, believing on Him in faith.

Acts 16:30 - The Conversion of the Jailer

Then he brought them out and asked, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

biblehub.com

Acts 16:31 - The Conversion of the Jailer

They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.

biblehub.com

 

[RDKirk]

Is that Christ died for our sins, to bring us to God.

Really, that's what we do "need" to know.

You don't even have to have a bible or an Old Testament to be saved. You don't even have to know who Peter was.....

....you don't even have to know about Moses....

You have to know that Christ Jesus died for you!

So, if someone mistakenly believes wrong doctrine W.2 about topic X -- it will not matter what they think about question X at all -- not even a micro bit -- if they believe in Christ Jesus and follow Him, doing as He taught us we must do.

This is so important. We understand this: no one has to belong to church denomination Z.1 in order to be saved.

Nor must anyone believe in Old Testament interpretation doctrine Y.3 to be saved.

But we Must believe on Jesus Christ, risen from the dead. and admit we are sinners who rely on Him for salvation from our sins, believing on Him in faith.

Acts 16:30 - The Conversion of the Jailer

Then he brought them out and asked, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

biblehub.com

Acts 16:31 - The Conversion of the Jailer

They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.

biblehub.com

Yes. How much did the Philippian jailer know? He was a Roman...he had his own pagan creation beliefs. Had he been re-schooled in all of those before Paul had him baptized? Scripture tells us he'd heard nothing but some Psalms, but was baptized within the hour. We know the essentials: Peter gave them to Cornelius. That's all it takes. Saving gospel is a lot slimmer than we often think.

 

[Lukaris]

I realize this was thread is long but I just wanted to mention that young creation seems to have been held by some Christians since the beginning. This is clearly the case in the Epistle of Barnabas ( not Barnabas who travelled with Paul). For ex.

CHAP. XIII.​

That the sabbath of the Jews was but a figure of a more glorious sabbath to come, and their temple, of the spiritual temples of God.

FURTHERMORE it is written concerning the sabbath, in the Ten 8 Commandments, which God spake in the Mount Sinai to Moses, 9 face to face; Sanctify the sabbath of the Lord with pure hands, and with a clean heart.

2 And elsewhere he saith; 10 If thy children shall keep my sabbaths, then will I put my mercy upon them.

3 And even in the beginning of the creation he makes mention





















p. 161

Click to enlarge
VERONICA AFFLICTED WITH AN ISSUE OF BLOOD.​

of the sabbath. 1 And God made in six days the works of his hands; and he finished them on the 2 seventh day, and he rested the seventh day, and sanctified it.

4 Consider, my children, what that signifies, he finished them in six days. The meaning of it is this; that in 3 six thousand years the Lord God will bring all things to an end.

5 For with him one day is a thousand years; as himself testifieth, saying, Behold this day shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, shall 4 all things be accomplished.

6 And what is that he saith, And he rested the seventh day: he meaneth this; that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the 5 Wicked One, and judge the ungodly; and shall change the sun and the moon, and the stars; then he shall gloriously rest in that seventh day.

7 He adds lastly; Thou shalt sanctify it with clean hands and a pure heart. Wherefore we are greatly deceived if we imagine that any one can now sanctify that day which God has made holy, without having a heart pure in all things.

8 Behold therefore he will then truly sanctify it with blessed rest, when we (having received the righteous promise, when iniquity shall be no more, all things being renewed by the Lord) shall be able to sanctify it, being ourselves first made holy.

9 Lastly, he saith unto them: 6 Your new moons and you: sabbaths I cannot bear them. Consider what he means by it; the sabbaths, says he, which ye now keep are not acceptable unto me, but those which I have made; when resting from all things I shall 7 begin the eighth day, that is, the beginning of the other world.

10 For which cause we observe the eighth day with gladness, in which Jesus rose from the dead; and having manifested himself to his disciples, ascended into heaven.

11 ¶ It remains yet that I speak to you concerning the temple how these miserable men being deceived have put their trust in the house, 8 and not in God himself who made them, as if it were the habitation of God.

12 For much after the same manner as the Gentiles, they consecrated him in the temple.

13 But learn therefore how the Lord speaketh, rendering the temple vain: 9 Who has measured the heaven with a span, and the earth with his hand? Is it not I? Thus saith the Lord, 10 Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What is the house that ye will build me? Or what is the place of my rest? Know therefore that all their hope is vain.

14 And again he speaketh after this manner: 11 Behold they

The Lost Books of the Bible: The General Epistle of Barnabas

The Lost Books of the Bible, [1926], full text etext at sacred-texts.com

www.sacred-texts.com

Epistle of Barnabas - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I believe in a universe billions of years old but young creation seems to have always been held by many. The numbering of Barnabas varies among translations.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The Bible, if you don't want to play debilitating interpretation games with it, straightforwardly asserts that the infinite God has the power to have created the universe in six, calendar days. And He used that power, to His glory.

God indeed has that power. But We ought not confine God to our literal interpretations. The wonderful images from the Webb telescope give us ever deeper views of God's creation. We need not be afraid to look.

 

[BobRyan]

Most Christians world wide really do not care about Young Earth Creationism

You can't be serious. A lot of Evangelical Christians still accept the Bible account of a 7 day creation week -- and a great many more Christian denominations accepted it before the rise of evolutionism in the early 1800's.

ICR is a good example of a non-SDA group that affirms a literal creation week

The Literal Week of Creation

There are many Christians today who insist that they believe the Bible, but seem unable to believe its very first chapter. The Biblical record says that God created the universe and everything in it in six days, then rested on the seventh day (note Exodus 20:8-11). But the modern worldview is...

www.icr.org

Also -- the "Answers in Genesis" group s another well-known non-SDA Christian group agreeing with the Bible on the literal creation week

Did Jesus Say He Created in Six Literal Days?

A very important question we must ask is, “What was Jesus’ view of the days of creation? Did He say that He created in six literal days?”

answersingenesis.org

Some "Detroit Baptists" -- which I prefer to think of as another example of non-SDA Christians solidly endorsing scripture when it comes to a literal creation week -

Length of Days in the Creation Week: Genesis 1–2:3 - Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

Though there are a number of Christians who question a literal interpretation of the creation week, a closer look at Genesis 1:1–2:3 should challenge those who have abandoned or are... Read More

dbts.edu

Most Christians world wide really do not care about Young Earth Creationism that originated in the USA in the Seventh Day Adventist church, from the visions of Ellen G. White.

The idea that nobody read the literal creation week account of Gen 1 - Gen 2:3 (also in Legal code as a literal 7 day creation week in Ex 20:8-11) - without first asking Ellen White or getting Ellen White to read it for them or .. .(in whatever other way you might wish to re-cast that bit of history) -- is pretty far fetched.