How Christians should respond to new space images

[EclipseEventSigns]

I worry at times about young earth creationists (YEC) if for example faith-based scripturally sound old earth creationism may be correct, and a YEC believer one days finally sees YEC theory fail, when they suddenly realize/learn that earth is old, but in a scary way, not from a fellow believer, but instead from such as an atheist who wishes to destroy their faith.... will the YEC believer's faith in God be shaken, if/when the YEC theory belief collapses...?

But we do read in scripture what determines whether we will endure the storms of life (like having a pet theory shot down for instance):

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12-28 - English Standard Version

The Golden Rule - “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is...

www.biblegateway.com

We hear Him saying to us verses 24-27 -- and there we see whether or not we will endure/make it....

While we all fall short of perfection, we hear the clear wording we must be doers of Christ's commands to us, that we love one another, forgive all our brothers and sisters (over and over), that we do for others in all situations (like enemies we might encounter, people we might not at first like, or whomever, illegal immigrants, etc.) -- that we do for others as we would want others to do for us. (But though we all stumble at times into sins, wonderfully with amazing grace we are forgiven and renewed as soon as we confess: 1rst John 1:8-10)

If we are loving all our brothers and sisters, forgiven, doing to others as we would have others do to us....then we will endure, even all that happens in this life.

Unfortunately, those who do not believe in a literal Creation can not have a proper view of God's total prophetic timeline and plan for the human race. The expected 7000 years that comprise the construct of Time is hidden in their world view.

 

[Halbhh]

Unfortunately, those who do not believe in a literal Creation can not have a proper view of God's total prophetic timeline and plan for the human race. The expected 7000 years that comprise the construct of Time is hidden in their world view.

Wonderfully, it's not on the basis of advanced esoteric understanding that we are saved into heaven -- nor even by what a person interprets correctly or incorrectly in most of scripture -- and even someone that never read the bible (*) can be saved (and many will)...

...because, wonderfully, by the wisdom and Grace of God (with His wisdom superior to our own), we are saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ!

=========
(*note: in case it helps to know, I've recently completed reading every book in the bible the 3rd time, but have read every book in the NT at least 4 times, and most actually 5, 6 or more times, so I'm not suggesting anyone should go without reading the bible, but instead I repeatedly say and post that we all need to hear God's words)

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Wonderfully, it's not on the basis of advanced esoteric understanding that we are saved into heaven -- nor even by what a person interprets correctly or incorrectly in most of scripture -- and even someone that never read the bible can be saved (and many will)...

...because, wonderfully, by the wisdom and Grace of God (with His wisdom superior to our own), we are saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ!

It's simple faith of a child that saves. However, God's desire is not to remain at the stage of mother's milk. But to be mature believers in God. That is the meat of this discussion.

 

[Halbhh]

It's simple faith of a child that saves. However, God's desire is not to remain at the stage of mother's milk. But to be mature believers in God. That is the meat of this discussion.

While normally l never worry about things that people get wrong -- because we are not to argue on such things:

Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

biblehub.com

It's an instruction to believers. (if we believe, we should show that by obeying this instruction)

...there is a serious problem that happens around YEC though that is far more serious than merely arguing over how to keep the Sabbath (as you see given as example in Romans 14)....

It's that YEC can block a seeker from finding about about Christ, because they hear that the 'bible says Earth is 6,000 something years old' (which of course is nowhere written in all of the bible).

Hearing it asserted the Bible says the Earth is 6,000 something years old, many seekers have then concluded it must be that the bible is just myth, and because of that, they are blocked from even hearing about Christ....

In that way, on the internet, which is like a public square, a sidewalk in a city....YEC preachers at times are disobeying the commandment of Christ to spread the gospel, because instead of the gospel, they preach YEC, and it's a roadblock -- like the roadblocks the Pharisees put up in Matthew 23.

Read about putting up such man made requirements and such on believers and seekers here: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23 - New International Version

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

While normally l never worry about things that people get wrong -- because we are not to argue on such things:

Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

biblehub.com

It's an instruction to believers. (if we believe, we should show that by obeying this instruction)

...there is a serious problem that happens around YEC though that is far more serious than merely arguing over how to keep the Sabbath (as you see given as example in Romans 14)....

It's that YEC can block a seeker from finding about about Christ, because they hear that the 'bible says Earth is 6,000 something years old' (which of course is nowhere written in all of the bible).

Hearing it asserted the Bible says the Earth is 6,000 something years old, many seekers have then concluded it must be that the bible is just myth, and because of that, they are blocked from even hearing about Christ....

In that way, on the internet, which is like a public square, a sidewalk in a city....YEC preachers at times are disobeying the commandment of Christ to spread the gospel, because instead of the gospel, they preach YEC, and it's a roadblock -- like the roadblocks the Pharisees put up in Matthew 23.

Read about putting up such man made requirements and such on believers and seekers here: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23 - New International Version

I understand your viewpoint. But, yes, the Bible DOES imply that the Earth (and universe) is about 6000 years old from when Time began. All of the information given about historical dates and geneologies leads to the Year of Creation in 3970 BC. If a seeker has a problem with this type of information, then it isn't up to us whether or not they accept it. That's the job of the Holy Spirit and if they are written in the Book of Life. Our responsibility is to proclaim the Truth - all truth is God's truth.

 

[Halbhh]

I understand your viewpoint. But, yes, the Bible DOES imply that the Earth (and universe) is about 6000 years old from when Time began. All of the information given about historical dates and geneologies leads to the Year of Creation in 3970 BC. If a seeker has a problem with this type of information, then it isn't up to us whether or not they accept it. That's the job of the Holy Spirit and if they are written in the Book of Life. Our responsibility is to proclaim the Truth - all truth is God's truth.

So, if you believe, then in view of Matthew 23 and Romans 14, you are constrained (just like me) to be very cautious in how you talk about some understanding you have where and with who. Basically, you can only correctly share your YEC ideas with strong believers (who are strong by doing Matthew 7:24-27) in person I think due to how even this sub forum is still exactly like standing on a street corner in front of a church shouting to passing strangers, just many dozens of random people passing by.

If you just posted YEC stuff on the internet most anywhere, it's like you shout it on a street corner, and both some believers and some seekers that think the Earth is old could be blocked from continuing in their faith journey -- some before they even hear the Gospel.

Or at least so long as you Romans 14 is valid/scripture, and Matthew 23 -- if you believe their are valid, God's Word. (if you think Romans isn't from God, please let me know, so we can talk about that...)

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

So, if you believe, then in view of Matthew 23 and Romans 14, you are constrained (just like me) to be very cautious in how you talk about some understanding you have where and with who. Basically, you can only correctly share your YEC ideas with strong believers (who are strong by doing Matthew 7:24-27) in person I think due to how even this sub forum is still exactly like standing on a street corner in front of a church shouting to passing strangers, just many dozens of random people passing by.

If you just posted YEC stuff on the internet most anywhere, it's like you shout it on a street corner, and both some believers and some seekers that think the Earth is old could be blocked from continuing in their faith journey -- some before they even hear the Gospel.

Or at least so long as you Romans 14 is valid/scripture, and Matthew 23 -- if you believe their are valid, God's Word. (if you think Romans isn't from God, please let me know, so we can talk about that...)

I'm really not sure where you are getting your ideas. What verse in Matt 23 and Romans 14 are you specifically referring to? I don't see anything in either entire chapter where we are to muzzle ourselves from proclaiming God's truth. After all, God's plan of prophecy which is tied to "young earth" is a very strong evidence for the existence of God and how He works through human history. It's a great tool for potential believers to accept Messiah Jesus.

 

[Halbhh]

What verse in Matt 23 and Romans 14 are you specifically referring to?

Full chapters, even though in Romans 14 even just the first verse is already decisively commanding us in a clear way about this.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14 - New International Version

The Weak and the Strong - Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the...

www.biblegateway.com

So, those that actually believe must become obedient to this instruction, in time. (maturing in the faith, we begin to obey instructions to us, such as in 1rst Corinthians 8 (full chapter) and Romans 14 (full chapter).

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Full chapters, even though in Romans 14 even just the first verse is already decisively commanding us in a clear way about this.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14 - New International Version

The Weak and the Strong - Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the...

www.biblegateway.com

So, those that actually believe must become obedient to this instruction, in time. (maturing in the faith, we begin to obey instructions to us, such as in 1rst Corinthians 8 (full chapter) and Romans 14 (full chapter).

I still don't see anything in those passages that support your viewpoint. Matthew 23 is Messiah Jesus' strong condemnation of the Jewish religious leaders of His day. They were hypocrites. Forcing followers to do things they themselves didn't do or believe. No where is there anything to do with true believers.
And Romans 14 is Paul's teaching that believers should not "treat with contempt" those that are weaker in the faith. That doesn't mean to never discuss those topics. But it means not to call someone an "unbeliever" if they don't believe what you have determined in heart to believe as worship to God. A lot of that goes on here in this forum, by the way.

 

[Halbhh]

I still don't see anything in those passages that support your viewpoint.

You mean whether or not I should argue in an intense way against those weak in faith about a disputed question (like what day is the right day for the Sabbath, or whether the Earth is young or old....).

I take it literally:

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.

Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

biblehub.com

Since I'm a believer in Christ Jesus, with real faith, I don't think I can just toss aside instructions to me in the New Testament. I have to obey these instructions. Because I believe in Christ.

But just as was done several times in the New Testament, it is necessary to dispute someone that is preaching a different gospel about how we get salvation through Jesus Christ. (example: Galatians chapter 2: Paul confronts Peter about the gospel acceptance of the uncircumcised)

In the Old Testament, the uncircumcised would not be accepted by God, but in the New Testament, they are accepted by God, because true circumcision is circumcision of the heart.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

You mean whether or not I should argue in an intense way against those weak in faith about a disputed question (like what day is the right day for the Sabbath, or whether the Earth is young or old....).

I take it literally:

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.

Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

biblehub.com

Since I'm a believer in Christ Jesus, with real faith, I don't think I can just toss aside instructions to me in the New Testament. I have to obey these instructions. Because I believe in Christ.

But just as was done several times in the New Testament, it is necessary to dispute someone that is preaching a different gospel about how we get salvation through Jesus Christ. (example: Galatians chapter 2: Paul confronts Peter about the gospel acceptance of the uncircumcised)

In the Old Testament, the uncircumcised would not be accepted by God, but in the New Testament, they are accepted by God, because true circumcision is circumcision of the heart.

Again, BIG DIFFERENCE between what is discussion and what is "quarelling" and "treating with contempt". We are also supposed to correct and not let wrong theology exist in the community of believers.

 

[Halbhh]

Again, BIG DIFFERENCE between what is discussion and what is "quarelling" and "treating with contempt". We are also supposed to correct and not let wrong theology exist in the community of believers.

So, being Christians under the New Covenant, the things that matter are in the New Testament: people must hear the Words of Christ, and learn how they are to confess their sins, for example: Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1 - New International Version

I'm not to argue with someone about which day to keep the Sabbath. I can gently discuss occasionally how one might keep the Sabbath face to face with someone asking about that kind of question of how to set aside time for God, but I need to be careful in regard to what they might think about disputable matters (like a Saturday as being a Sabbath day), lest I violate Romans 14:1.

But I'm required to help people learn key things in the New Testament that are required of us all to do -- commandments/instructions. Such as how we are instructed to pray (Matthew 6), and how we are instructed to confess our sins (1rst John 1)....

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

So, being Christians under the New Covenant, the things that matter are in the New Testament: people must hear the Words of Christ, and learn how they are to confess their sins, for example: Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1 - New International Version

I'm not to argue with someone about which day to keep the Sabbath. I can gently discuss occasionally how one might keep the Sabbath face to face with someone asking about that kind of question of how to set aside time for God, but I need to be careful in regard to what they might think about disputable matters (like a Saturday as being a Sabbath day), lest I violate Romans 14:1.

But I'm required to help people learn key things in the New Testament that are required of us all to do -- commandments/instructions. Such as how we are instructed to pray (Matthew 6), and how we are instructed to confess our sins (1rst John 1)....

Well, at this point I think I will do what Paul states in Romans 14 and let you do what you have decided in your mind. It's not something I have determined in my own mind from God's word.

 

[coffee4u]

I worry at times about young earth creationists (YEC) if for example faith-based scripturally sound old earth creationism may be correct, and a YEC believer one days finally sees YEC theory fail, when they suddenly realize/learn that earth is old, but in a scary way, not from a fellow believer, but instead from such as an atheist who wishes to destroy their faith.... will the YEC believer's faith in God be shaken, if/when the YEC theory belief collapses...?

We hear Christ teach to us what determines whether we will endure the storms that will come onto us in life (at the end of this key passage):

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12-28 - English Standard Version

The Golden Rule - “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is...

www.biblegateway.com

We hear Him saying to us verses 24-27 -- and there we see whether or not an individual person will endure/make it....

While we all fall short of perfection, we hear the clear wording we must be doers of Christ's commands to us -- that we love one another, forgive all our brothers and sisters (over and over), that we do for others in all situations (like enemies we might encounter, people we might not at first like, or whomever, illegal immigrants, etc.) -- that we do for others as we would want others to do for us. (But though we all stumble at times into sins, wonderfully with amazing grace we are forgiven and renewed as soon as we confess: 1rst John 1:8-10)

If we are loving all our brothers and sisters, forgiving others, doing to others as we would have others do to us....then we will endure, even all that happens in this life.

No matter what happens to us, even if everyone we know is killed in an earthquake, or any other thing that can happen, we will endure if we are doing as Christ instructs us to do.

I don't believe that old earth creationism is sound scripturally. I have looked at it and other variations, none of them hold up. Since scripture nowhere teaches that the earth is old this idea- "when they suddenly realize/learn that earth is old" is not possible since scripture does not teach that. A man could pour over scripture all of his life and he will never find that teaching. So where does that idea, that kernel come from? Certainly not from scripture.
If something is not from scripture than the only place this could be learnt from is man. Well mankind tries to teach us a lot of things including that men can be women and that God is a fairy tale among other things. I would be greatly skeptical of anything mankind says.

I was an agnostic, I was a garden variety evolutionist. I got saved and then scripture made it plain to me that there was no death before sin and hence creation cannot be that old. It was a wrestle but I knew which one I had to pick. This was 33 years ago and I have not changed my stance, it has only become stronger.
No death before sin is not possible unless the earth is young. I toyed for a short time over the gap theory, that perhaps the earth sat for a long time before creation, but no Exodus squashed that option too.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Millions of years is for one thing and one thing only, and that is to bow to mans knowledge. It's a face saving exercise towards man. The Fear of Man was a very good sermon by Derick prince.
I hope this sermon is still as powerful and eye opening as it was 30 years ago.

I bow to no one but God. It may make no sense from a scientific standpoint, but I don't require science. I assume either that there are things that can't be measured but man in his arrogance thinks it can, or that things changed so drastically at the fall that nothing science measures is in anyway correct and or its a great deception.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
“a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.”
It doesn't matter how true mankind can make something look, Satan is the father of lies. Mankind is fallen and full of sin and evil.
God doesn't have to appeal to our reason. If all things must make sense to our reason then we better be prepared to toss out most of scripture.
When a persons belief is built upon sand it will collapse. Not when it is built upon God's revealed truth. Peter started to sink beneath the waves because his reason and intellect told him that what he was doing was impossible and that is why he took his eyes off Jesus. If one needs to bolster their faith with intellectual findings (I would say this is weakness of faith) then there are plenty of things that point to a younger earth such as the ocean floors and the salinity of the oceans.

If the earth is old then there was death before sin as death was simply a natural part of life. As natural as breathing.
If there was death before sin then God used it (his enemy) to shape his creation, to work alongside of him hand in hand.
That His proclamation of 'very good' at the end of creation included death.
Revelation says that after sin is vanquished; death, pain, and sorrow will also be vanquished. If this is the restoration of the creation, we are left with a question about death. If we believe that death is a normal part of living then why is death being done away with? Why is it called God's enemy to be thrown into the lake of fire? What kind of God allows his enemy free reign in his creation? My God is not one who is friends with death. Death is an interloper and an enemy that came into the perfect creation due to mans sin. Death is the wages of sin and the wages of sin alone, and as the interloper it is, it will be destroyed.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Stephen C. Meyer who runs the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture with all its scientists have a lot to say about the Theory of Evolution, the Universe and many main stream science theories pushed as fact.

Stephen C. Meyer

Dr. Stephen C. Meyer received his PhD from the University of Cambridge in the philosophy of science. A former geophysicist and college professor, he now directs the Center for Science and Culture at…

www.discovery.org

 

[BeyondET]

I don't believe that old earth creationism is sound scripturally. I have looked at it and other variations, none of them hold up. Since scripture nowhere teaches that the earth is old this idea- "when they suddenly realize/learn that earth is old" is not possible since scripture does not teach that. A man could pour over scripture all of his life and he will never find that teaching. So where does that idea, that kernel come from? Certainly not from scripture.
If something is not from scripture than the only place this could be learnt from is man. Well mankind tries to teach us a lot of things including that men can be women and that God is a fairy tale among other things. I would be greatly skeptical of anything mankind says.

I was an agnostic, I was a garden variety evolutionist. I got saved and then scripture made it plain to me that there was no death before sin and hence creation cannot be that old. It was a wrestle but I knew which one I had to pick. This was 33 years ago and I have not changed my stance, it has only become stronger.
No death before sin is not possible unless the earth is young. I toyed for a short time over the gap theory, that perhaps the earth sat for a long time before creation, but no Exodus squashed that option too.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Millions of years is for one thing and one thing only, and that is to bow to mans knowledge. It's a face saving exercise towards man. The Fear of Man was a very good sermon by Derick prince.
I hope this sermon is still as powerful and eye opening as it was 30 years ago.

I bow to no one but God. It may make no sense from a scientific standpoint, but I don't require science. I assume either that there are things that can't be measured but man in his arrogance thinks it can, or that things changed so drastically at the fall that nothing science measures is in anyway correct and or its a great deception.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
“a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.”
It doesn't matter how true mankind can make something look, Satan is the father of lies. Mankind is fallen and full of sin and evil.
God doesn't have to appeal to our reason. If all things must make sense to our reason then we better be prepared to toss out most of scripture.
When a persons belief is built upon sand it will collapse. Not when it is built upon God's revealed truth. Peter started to sink beneath the waves because his reason and intellect told him that what he was doing was impossible and that is why he took his eyes off Jesus. If one needs to bolster their faith with intellectual findings (I would say this is weakness of faith) then there are plenty of things that point to a younger earth such as the ocean floors and the salinity of the oceans.

If the earth is old then there was death before sin as death was simply a natural part of life. As natural as breathing.
If there was death before sin then God used it (his enemy) to shape his creation, to work alongside of him hand in hand.
That His proclamation of 'very good' at the end of creation included death.
Revelation says that after sin is vanquished; death, pain, and sorrow will also be vanquished. If this is the restoration of the creation, we are left with a question about death. If we believe that death is a normal part of living then why is death being done away with? Why is it called God's enemy to be thrown into the lake of fire? What kind of God allows his enemy free reign in his creation? My God is not one who is friends with death. Death is an interloper and an enemy that came into the perfect creation due to mans sin. Death is the wages of sin and the wages of sin alone, and as the interloper it is, it will be destroyed.

Show me some sound scripture on creation each day was 24 hours?

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Intelligent Design: Theistic Implications? | Evolution News and Science Today

Although the case for intelligent design depends upon scientific evidence and methods of reasoning, it may well have larger theistic implications.

evolutionnews.org

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Show me some sound scripture on creation each day was 24 hours?

really? gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

[BeyondET]

really? gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Yea really I didn't see 24 hour day in that verse. And yom means more than just that.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Yea really I didn't see 24 hour day in that verse. And yom means more than just that.

Not hardly. Day, morning evening. Pretty clear terms if you are being honest with the text.