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How Christ became superfluous

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Redwolf

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According to the Catholic catechism, Muslims and Jews are saved despite their rejection of Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR, our ONLY means to salvation.

Paragraph 841:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

Here are two biblical examples of how salvation works.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Footnote 330 also directs one to
star.gif
NOSTRA AETATE, (DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS), POPE PAUL VI, October 28, 1965, section 3:
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
For both those of the Jewish and Muslim faiths, this element of faith in Jesus Christ as the raised Son of God is decidedly lacking. However, the Roman Catholic Church has taken it upon themselves to boldly proclaim that faith in Jesus Christ is not required, one only needs to believe in the creator and have Abraham's faith.

The contradiction:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

For further reading:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/newcat.htm
 

Oblio

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The Holy Apostle Paul said:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Phi 2:12 KJVA)

:crosseo:
 
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Redwolf

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Redwolf said:
According to the Catholic catechism, Muslims and Jews are saved despite their rejection of Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR, our ONLY means to salvation.

Paragraph 841:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

Here are two biblical examples of how salvation works.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Footnote 330 also directs one to
star.gif
NOSTRA AETATE, (DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS), POPE PAUL VI, October 28, 1965, section 3:
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
For both those of the Jewish and Muslim faiths, this element of faith in Jesus Christ as the raised Son of God is decidedly lacking. However, the Roman Catholic Church has taken it upon themselves to boldly proclaim that faith in Jesus Christ is not required, one only needs to believe in the creator and have Abraham's faith.

The contradiction:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

For further reading:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/newcat.htm
Hello, Redwolf
Looks like no one wants to give you an explanation of how this is possible.
What did you say? You thought that might happen?
Well, then you are not surprised, eh, what?
 
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MikeMcK

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Redwolf said:
According to the Catholic catechism, Muslims and Jews are saved despite their rejection of Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR, our ONLY means to salvation.

Paragraph 841:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

Here are two biblical examples of how salvation works.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Footnote 330 also directs one to
star.gif
NOSTRA AETATE, (DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS), POPE PAUL VI, October 28, 1965, section 3:
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

For both those of the Jewish and Muslim faiths, this element of faith in Jesus Christ as the raised Son of God is decidedly lacking. However, the Roman Catholic Church has taken it upon themselves to boldly proclaim that faith in Jesus Christ is not required, one only needs to believe in the creator and have Abraham's faith.

The contradiction:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

For further reading:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/newcat.htm

Ironic that they can be saved without Christ, but Baptists who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior by faith will be damned if they reject the Catholic church.
 
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QuantaCura

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Jesus said not to judge or condemn. So if I cannot pronounce that any individual is in Hell, I must hold to the possibility that Jesus may save them. There's no other option for me. Also, we don't declare Muslims and Jews "are saved." We say they may be saved. We don't pass judgment on the souls on this earth, we don't even judge ourselves. We also hope that we may be saved. We don't do God's job and judge ourselves while we are still on this earth.

The same goes for Baptists. Objectively the sins against faith (heresy, schism, and apostacy) are damning unless there are mitigating circumstances--which only God can judge--He alone knows the secrets of the hearts of men. So, we always hold out the possiblity of salvation and pray for God's mercy.


The Catholic Church has never declared any individual to be in Hell. Have you ever declared some individual to be in Hell? Does Jesus want you to do this?

Also, we believe the plan of salvation includes all men--Jesus redeemed the whole world. Whether or not everyone will be saved is up to the individual and God's judgement.
 
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Redwolf

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QuantaCura said:
Jesus said not to judge or condemn. So if I cannot pronounce that any individual is in Hell, I must hold to the possibility that Jesus may save them. There's no other option for me. Also, we don't declare Muslims and Jews "are saved." We say they may be saved. We don't pass judgment on the souls on this earth, we don't even judge ourselves. We also hope that we may be saved. We don't do God's job and judge ourselves while we are still on this earth.

The same goes for Baptists. Objectively the sins against faith (heresy, schism, and apostacy) are damning unless there are mitigating circumstances--which only God can judge--He alone knows the secrets of the hearts of men. So, we always hold out the possiblity of salvation and pray for God's mercy.


The Catholic Church has never declared any individual to be in Hell. Have you ever declared some individual to be in Hell? Does Jesus want you to do this?

Also, we believe the plan of salvation includes all men--Jesus redeemed the whole world. Whether or not everyone will be saved is up to the individual and God's judgement.

Thank you for your comments. Then you do not agree with this.........
Paragraph 841:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330
]

This makes Jesus superfluous.
Satan also acknowledges the Creator.....and he trembles.
James 2:19 ........the devils also believe, and tremble
 
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CaDan

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Redwolf said:
Thank you for your comments. Then you do not agree with this.........
Paragraph 841:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330
]

This makes Jesus superfluous.
Satan also acknowledges the Creator.....and he trembles.
James 2:19 ........the devils also believe, and tremble

Answered above.
 
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Redwolf

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MikeMcK said:
Ironic that they can be saved without Christ, but Baptists who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior by faith will be damned if they reject the Catholic church.
I love being a heretic. Don't you?
And an infidel. I can look Jesus in the eyes and not worry I have denied him from the left side of my mouth and praised him from the right side.
 
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QuantaCura

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Redwolf said:
Thank you for your comments. Then you do not agree with this.........
Paragraph 841:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330
]

This makes Jesus superfluous.
Satan also acknowledges the Creator.....and he trembles.
James 2:19 ........the devils also believe, and tremble

I don't see what you're getting at. It doesn't make Jesus superfluous at all. He is always the one doing the saving. What it does is say Jesus doesn't need us to command Him who to save.
 
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CaDan

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Redwolf said:
I love being a heretic. Don't you?
And an infidel. I can look Jesus in the eyes and not worry I have denied him from the left side of my mouth and praised him from the right side.

Do you like ice cream?
 
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Redwolf

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QuantaCura said:
I don't see what you're getting at. It doesn't make Jesus superfluous at all. He is always the one doing the saving. What it does is say Jesus doesn't need us to command Him who to save.
That is not what the treatise states.
 
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CaDan

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Redwolf said:
Diversion using flippancy.
If I don't think about it, it will go away.

Flippant? Li'l ol' me? :D

Actually, just about everything I post is meaningful.

Ice cream is one of the most serious things in the universe.
 
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