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How certain are we that God forgives habitual sin?

PrincetonGuy

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From Naves Topical Bible,

Apostasy
Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12
Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13
Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10
Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22
Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17
Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3
See Antichrist
Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6
See Backsliders; Reprobacy
Instances of:
Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14
Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18
Amaziah
2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27
Disciples
Joh_6:66
Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18
Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20
Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15
See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel
 
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98cwitr

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Glad you asked:

Matthew 12:30
“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Who ever is not the elect is, for all intensive purposes, an anti-christ. All anti-christs are apostate and all apostates are anti-christs.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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What? Where in Matthew 12:30 do you find anyone apostatizing from anything? Do you know what apostasy means? Have you studied the meaning of the Greek word translated as apostasy? Antichrists cannot be apostates unless they were for a time Christians.
 
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So essentially we can snatch ourselves out of God's hand?

Loophole?

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
nobody can snatch you away, you can walk away on your own free will
 
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like I always say theres two ditches with most doctrine, to far in one side or to far in the other, the bible is a balanced road
 
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98cwitr

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Mathew 7:23

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".


Keep ignoring the most obvious passage for eternal security.

exactly...it doesn't say "I once knew you..." It says never

οὐδέποτε,d \{oo-dep'-ot-eh}
1) never

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3763.htm

^^^Looks like the definitions are pretty absolute...so much for "balanced road."
 
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NOW THIS IS A BIBLICALLY BALANCED TEACHING! been awhile since I've read such a good post on the subject. It simply doesn't make sense when your in a ditch and your faced with contradicting passages, which ever side your in.....get back on the road!
 
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Sometimes you just have to take the criticism from some of the ones who are gonna hold to one form of 'ism', or 'ist', than another. I know it may sound heretical to some, but I just will not be bound by one so strongly, that I ignore some warnings, the text will clearly give.

This is one of those texts. Specifically Heb. 10:29, and yes I know the entire context. Fact is, the text says, "who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is a warning. A very stern one. I believe custom was, or scholars more familiar with jewish customs wrote, that at passover, when the blood was placed on the mantle and doorpost, they had to be very careful and not let any of the blood spill or drop onto the floor at the doorway. To trample on the blood would disgrace the sacrifice.

This warning is clearly given to one who has been sanctified, as the bold letters (made bold) in the text shows. The reference is to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the blood of the covenant through Him. This particular verse is making no reference to any OT sacrifice.

The Bible will convict all, whatever church or doctrine we may hold to. Far as I am concerned that is how it should be. If not careful we will become guilty of the very same things the church was doing when the protest was made. Refusing to let scripture have authority over church teachings.

The issue concerning these verses are not about knowing, and not knowing. "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" easily shows the seriousness of the blood of the New Covenant. Yes, they would just offer another sacrifice, which was only a shadow of what was to come, as Heb. 10:1-6 clearly points out. And then the fulfillment in Jesus Christ is pointed out in verses 7-14. The fact that the Holy Spirit abides and writes His law on the heart is then pointed out, verses 15 and 16. The results are spoken of in verses 17-22. Exhortation is given in verses 22-25. And then we are warned, and that is what all the fuss is about. The seriousness is evident in the text being discussed. If scripture says something stern, just accept it, instead of jumping all around in scripture, which is what many will do.

Nobody has changed one single word of the text being discussed. We are a society of empty words and promises. God does not work that way. Calvinist, eternal security folks, will say those who commit apostasy, never were saved. The other folks will say they lost what they had. The results are going to be the same. Who is truly guilty, is not going to be decided by us anyhow. Surely, though, we can both agree, that exactly as Jesus said, "Many will say to Me in that day". He did not say what 'ism' they held either. Or what church group they would come out of. Personally, I believe some are living a lie, or are deceived, out of every one of them. And yes, some are gonna make it, but suffer much loss, because all they focused on was trash. Straw, wood, stubble. They never got serious enough to earn the precious materials, they cost too much. This ain't as light a matter as some are thinking, folks. And that is my input on Heb. Chapter 10.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Matt. 7:21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23. “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’”

Jesus has a personal relationship ONLY with those people who have been justified by faith and who are doing the will of His Father who is in heaven. Prophesying in His name, casting out demons in His name, and performing many miracles in his name does not make one justified.

This passage in Matthew says nothing at all about true, born-again Christians who were justified by faith and did the will of the Father for a period of time, but of their own free will, cease to do so and become apostates.

Critical to the correct interpretation of this passage is grasping the force of the Greek present participle ποιων in v. 21 translated as “does.” Greek present participles do not speak of one-time actions, but of continuous, ongoing action. The ONLY people who will enter the kingdom of heaven are those people have been justified by faith and who are continuing in an ongoing manner to do the will of the Father.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Um, you can't have "justified and" anything to be saved. Otherwise, justification loses it's meaning. "Justified and" sounds very RCC.

Are you saying that Jesus was a heretic, a Roman Catholic, a fruitcake, or just plain confused?

Matt. 7:21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23. “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is contrasting doing the will of His father with practicing lawlessness. What, therefore, does Jesus mean by doing “the will of [His] Father who is in heaven?
 
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WOW! two good post in a row! when are the ditch diggers gonna get here?
 
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98cwitr

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And how does one come to do the Will of God, is this of themselves? Are you preaching self-righteousness now?
 
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And how does one come to do the Will of God, is this of themselves? Are you preaching self-righteousness now?
good question! what does the bible say about obtaining righteousness, how did the great men of the bible do it? see the problem with no longer giving man a free will, is it stands in complete contradiction to huge portions of scripture, needless to say puts God in the business of making you sinful just as its Him making you righteous, Its a ditch doctrine!
 
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98cwitr

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God doesn't force me to be sinful...we're born slaves to sin due to original sin (now if you want to go into why God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden...let's do it but in a new thread ). That which is sinful will inherently be sinful! This is why Christ says we must be born again [of Spirit and not flesh]. Following the Law never saved anyone (Hebrews 10:1, Ephesians 2:8) only Christ saves...we cannot save ourselves.
 
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RobertZ

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Hammster

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A straw man? Really?
 
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