How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

You said you read the verses I gave you, but how can you have read the verse from John and not know?

Apparently, I don't have such gifts.

But, again, my confidence isn't in myself. I didn't save myself. I can't save myself.

I'm saved only by completely God's unmerited grace.

That is NOT the issue here.

Because, I believe in the promises of God and in the two verses I gave you earlier.

I feel like a broken record. How do you know that you believe?

Not really. It's hard to be that way when God's word is so emphatic.

Well, God hated Esau ...

Just because you see yourself clinging to God's cross does not mean that God will recognize you.

Of course it does. Scripture tells us over and over that it's by the cross that we're reconciled to God and made sons of His.

Anyone can cling on to the Cross. But this doesn't mean God will recognize them.

Do you know of any examples in scripture of anyone coming to God, through Christ, who was turned away?

No, but it's not like Scripture goes into that.

Yes. I truly have faith in God.

How many times are you going to ask this question?

You don't understand what I am asking.
You have such confidence in your own faith.

 

[LittleLion]

Your question did not ask if the elect existed or not. you asked:

"How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?"

Your question did not call into doubt the existence of an elect. Therefore my answer covered your question.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You have unshakable faith in your faith ...

 

[12volt_man]

Apparently, I don't have such gifts.

Would you mind grabbing a Bible and telling us what these verses say, please?

That is NOT the issue here.

Then why do you keep asking?

I feel like a broken record. How do you know that you believe?

I believe because I believe.

Well, God hated Esau ...

OK. How does that show that God's word isn't emphatic?

Anyone can cling on to the Cross. But this doesn't mean God will recognize them.

So then why does Jesus say what He does in the verse I gave you from John?

No, but it's not like Scripture goes into that.

Sure it does. Scripture talks quite a bit about our relationship to the cross.

You don't understand what I am asking.

I must not.

 

[Adstar]

I feel like a broken record. How do you know that you believe?

This question is illogical in the extreme.

One either believes or they do not believe in the Word as pertains to salvation via belief in Jesus. This is simple. I don't need to have faith in belief. I either believe or i don't believe.

How can you ask such a question. "How do you know that you believe?"


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Scholar in training]

Again, personally, I am not sure, I only know of various theologies.

I am trying to find out what it is that I think. This may seem like an immature thing to say, or stupid, but I don't have the luxury of much self-confidence.
I thank everyone who listens to me; I have tried to sort things out for myself, by myself, and ended up more confused that I was when I began.

I think I can relate. You sound a bit like I did earlier this year.

But what if you are merely saying empty words, even before other men?
See Proverbs 15:8-9.

I just see no end to doubt.

Well, if someone is saying them in an empty way, like to gain face with people around them, without any commitment to the meaning behind the words, then they will have to answer to God for it.

I am not accepting Calvinism as the standard for interpreting Scripture.

Sounds like good news to me.

My problem is that there are so many ways to understand the Bible.

Well, it can seem a little overwhelming at first. But think of it this way: there are also many ways to understand the economy. Some ways will work, and be productive and fair; others won't. Once you find out which ideas work, then you will begin to understand the economy. Similarly, once you find out which biblical interpretations accurately and consistantly explain the Bible, you will begin to understand the Bible. It may take time, but it's worth your while.

 

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

Apparently, I don't have such gifts.

Would you mind grabbing a Bible and telling us what these verses say, please?

I meant that I apparently don't have the gift of understanding as you do.

Then why do you keep asking?

Because you did not understand what I was asking.

I believe because I believe.

This is circular ...

Well, God hated Esau ...

OK. How does that show that God's word isn't emphatic?

If you think that God hating Esau goes well along with God supposedly loving all people ...

So then why does Jesus say what He does in the verse I gave you from John?

I don't know why Jesus says that.

Sure it does. Scripture talks quite a bit about our relationship to the cross.

That it does, but I replied to "Do you know of any examples in scripture of anyone coming to God, through Christ, who was turned away?" The Scripture doesn't go into that, but gives a clear message that empty words won't do.

You don't understand what I am asking.

I must not.

Of course not. Then let's quit this.

 

[LittleLion]

This question is illogical in the extreme.

One either believes or they do not believe in the Word as pertains to salvation via belief in Jesus. This is simple. I don't need to have faith in belief. I either believe or i don't believe.

How can you ask such a question. "How do you know that you believe?"

The question is crucial and you apparently do not understand me.

It seems you have the luxury of being sure of yourself, so such questions as mine never enter your mind.

 

[LittleLion]

Scholar in training,

Well, if someone is saying them in an empty way, like to gain face with people around them, without any commitment to the meaning behind the words, then they will have to answer to God for it.

Count yourself blessed if you don't know the depths of doubt as I do ...

Well, it can seem a little overwhelming at first. But think of it this way: there are also many ways to understand the economy. Some ways will work, and be productive and fair; others won't. Once you find out which ideas work, then you will begin to understand the economy. Similarly, once you find out which biblical interpretations accurately and consistantly explain the Bible, you will begin to understand the Bible. It may take time, but it's worth your while.

I have thought this earlier today, and I think it is the best explanation about the Bible I have come up, ever:

It is obvious that the Bible is not a logico-philosophical tractate, and therefore, it should not be treated -- quoted -- as if it were one.

I think that the Bible is just "raw material", a text, when read, attempts to produce certain turmoils in the reader, and these turmoils and trying to resolve them lead the reader further on the spiritual path.

 

[12volt_man]

I meant that I apparently don't have the gift of understanding as you do.

You don't understand them because you didn't read them.

These verses are so simple, that you can not, not understand them.

If you think that God hating Esau goes well along with God supposedly loving all people ...

First of all, that's not what "emphatic" means. Emphatic means that something is clear and very plainly stated. It doesn't have anything to do with love.

Second, God did not "hate" Esau, as we think of hatred. The word is used quantitatively to show that Jacob recieved God's blessing over Esau.

It's important to remember that the OT is written in another language, to another culture, in another context.

As such there are words and phrases that may translate awkardly. This is one of them.

I don't know why Jesus says that.

Obviously, that's not what I meant.

What I meant was, how do you reconcile your belief that not everyone who comes to Christ is accepted with Jesus' statement?

Do you really believe that you're more qualified to say who Jesus will accept than Jesus is?

That it does, but I replied to "Do you know of any examples in scripture of anyone coming to God, through Christ, who was turned away?" The Scripture doesn't go into that, but gives a clear message that empty words won't do.

Again, scripture does go into that.

We're not talking about "empty words", we're talking about being saved or not by virtue of faith in Christ.

 

[Scholar in training]

Count yourself blessed if you don't know the depths of doubt as I do ...

Probably not as much doubt as you have expressed, admittedly, but I've still experienced a lot. If you are interested in learning more about the Bible, might I recommend an apologetics site for you to read? Tektonics.org is a vast, but a good, resource for learning about the Bible.

I have thought this earlier today, and I think it is the best explanation about the Bible I have come up, ever:

It is obvious that the Bible is not a logico-philosophical tractate, and therefore, it should not be treated -- quoted -- as if it were one.

I think that the Bible is just "raw material", a text, when read, attempts to produce certain turmoils in the reader, and these turmoils and trying to resolve them lead the reader further on the spiritual path.

The Bible includes many genres. Poetry, wisdom literature, biography, epistles/teaching literature, etc. I don't think the Bible is supposed to be read as "raw material". Some of it can be used as apologetic, some of it can be used to reason about God and our relation to him.

 

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

You don't understand them because you didn't read them.

I did read them.

These verses are so simple, that you can not, not understand them.

I have an ability to doubt to which you cannot relate. This is why we are speaking past eachother.

If you think that God hating Esau goes well along with God supposedly loving all people ...

First of all, that's not what "emphatic" means. Emphatic means that something is clear and very plainly stated. It doesn't have anything to do with love.

Yes.

Second, God did not "hate" Esau, as we think of hatred. The word is used quantitatively to show that Jacob recieved God's blessing over Esau.

It's important to remember that the OT is written in another language, to another culture, in another context.

As such there are words and phrases that may translate awkardly. This is one of them.

Of course. But how is one to know which verses translate awkwardly?
I can't just pick up the Bible and read it. I must have all sorts of additional resources, or it won't make much sense.
So much for the Bible being "for the simple folk".

What I meant was, how do you reconcile your belief that not everyone who comes to Christ is accepted with Jesus' statement?

Do you really believe that you're more qualified to say who Jesus will accept than Jesus is?

Please. I am saying that just because a person believes they believe in Christ does not mean that this belief, or faith, will be recognized as proper by Christ.

We're not talking about "empty words", we're talking about being saved or not by virtue of faith in Christ.

NO. Please listen. I am saying that just because a person believes they believe in Christ does not mean that this belief, or faith, will be recognized as proper by Christ.
Even though YOU may think you are believing something with all your heart, this doesn't mean that God will accept it; maybe for God, you have been merely saying empty words, maybe God requires more than you think.

You have such confidence in your own faith that you don't doubt it, so it's no wonder you can't understand me, just like Adstar doesn't.

 

[sethad]

**runs off to start a predestination vs free will debate so I can join in**

 

[Adstar]

The question is crucial and you apparently do not understand me.

It seems you have the luxury of being sure of yourself, so such questions as mine never enter your mind.

I don't need to be sure of myself. I do not need to have confidence in my belief.

It's like a light bulb, its either switched off or its is switched on.

Self-confidence is not needed, confidence in Jesus is needed.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LittleLion]

Scholar in training,


Thank you for the link. I have bookmarked it.

The Bible includes many genres. Poetry, wisdom literature, biography, epistles/teaching literature, etc. I don't think the Bible is supposed to be read as "raw material". Some of it can be used as apologetic, some of it can be used to reason about God and our relation to him.

When you start reading it, it is very raw material.
One cannot just open the Bible somewhere, and take for granted what they have read -- not with their present newcomer understanding.
Even though many Christians who wish to help me downright pushed me into such reading and understanding. I felt like I was about to have a nervous breakdown.

 

[LittleLion]

I don't need to be sure of myself. I do not need to have confidence in my belief.

It's like a light bulb, its either switched off or its is switched on.

Self-confidence is not needed, confidence in Jesus is needed.

You have confidence in your confidence in Jesus.

 

[visionary]

Jesus loves me... this I know.

 

[Scholar in training]

Scholar in training,

Thank you for the link. I have bookmarked it.

When you start reading it, it is very raw material.
One cannot just open the Bible somewhere, and take for granted what they have read -- not with their present newcomer understanding.
Even though many Christians who wish to help me downright pushed me into such reading and understanding. I felt like I was about to have a nervous breakdown.

I agree that it is difficult to read the Bible without forming an understanding of how it was written and why it was written. That's why some preliminary studying can help in one's understanding of the Bible (something people who take Genesis too literally tend to have neglected ). For instance, do you know one of the reasons why much of the Old Testament was written in poetic form? Because the imagery it creates - the strong parellels, the vivid use of hyperbole - are memorable to the listener. That was critical in a time when oral tradition rather than written tradition were the preferred method of transmitting ideas. Knowing things like that initially can help you formulate a broader understanding of the Bible and its purpose.

 

[Adstar]

Please. I am saying that just because a person believes they believe in Christ does not mean that this belief, or faith, will be recognized as proper by Christ.

Thats true.

Thats why all followers of Jesus must check that they are followers of Jesus by reading His Word and asking God for understanding. I trust that God will not turn away a genuine seeker.

Why didn't you make this statement when you first asked your question?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LittleLion]

Thats true.

Thats why all followers of Jesus must check that they are followers of Jesus by reading His Word and asking God for understanding. I trust that God will not turn away a genuine seeker.

Why didn't you make this statement when you first asked your question?

I have been saying this all along, in many variations as it applies to several aspects of belief/faith.

I think it is indeed a matter of having faith in oneself that one considers oneself a genuine seeker.

 

[12volt_man]

I did read them.

Then tell me what they say.

I have an ability to doubt to which you cannot relate. This is why we are speaking past eachother.

I have an ability to doubt, as well. For instance, I doubt that you've read the verses I've posted for you.

Yes.

OK, so why do you tie a word to a definition you say has nothing to do with it?

Of ccourse. But how is one to know which verses translate awkwardly?

By studying the text in light of context.

I can't just pick up the Bible and read it. I must have all sorts of additional resources, or it won't make much sense.

It seems to me that you're playing the old Bugs Bunny game of "I dare you to cross over this line...OK, I dare you to cross over this line..."

I've given you two verses that are very simpe to understand, very straightforward, and very easy to understand, but you say that you can't understand them.

I've tried to help you understand a couple of passages of scripture and you just fight me. I'm starting to wonder if you're really sincere or if you're just playing games.

I don't know that anything I or these "resources" could tell you anything that you'd find acceptable.

So much for the Bible being "for the simple folk".

It's funny, but the only people I hear say that the Bible is hard are the ones who've never studied it.

Please. I am saying that just because a person believes they believe in Christ does not mean that this belief, or faith, will be recognized as proper by Christ.

And when I asked you what kind of faith in Christ, Christ would not honor, you can't say.

Again, how do you reconcile this statement with Christ's words in the verse in John, (that you insist you've read, but can't tell us what it says)?

NO. Please listen. I am saying that just because a person believes they believe in Christ does not mean that this belief, or faith, will be recognized as proper by Christ.

See above.

Even though YOU may think you are believing something with all your heart, this doesn't mean that God will accept it; maybe for God, you have been merely saying empty words, maybe God requires more than you think.

God has already told us what He requires.

You have such confidence in your own faith that you don't doubt it, so it's no wonder you can't understand me, just like Adstar doesn't.

Actually, that's not what I said. What I said is that I have confidence in the object of my faith, Jesus.