How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

Please see Adstar's posts and my response to him above. (#58)

 

[12volt_man]

12volt_man,

Please see Adstar's posts and my response to him above. (#58)

OK. How does this begin to address anything in my post to you?

 

[LittleLion]

OK. How does this begin to address anything in my post to you?

The topic here is self-confidence; the confidence one has that one's beliefs are indeed as one believes that they are.
I'm not up to addressing your points right now, and they are also off-topic.
Please note that this is a thread in questions by non-Christians, and is not meant to debate formal apologetics.

 

[12volt_man]

The topic here is self-confidence; the confidence one has that one's beliefs are indeed as one believes that they are.
I'm not up to addressing your points right now, and they are also off-topic.
Please note that this is a thread in questions by non-Christians, and is not meant to debate formal apologetics.

My points aren't off topic. They are questions in response to points that you brought up.

Nor have I debated apologetics with you. Everything I've said here is for the express purpose of answering your questions and trying to explain Christian teaching to you that would answer your questions.

I'm sorry you feel that I'm trying to debate you and I'm sorry that you won't accept my answers to you.

 

[seekingpurity047]

Ok, everyone, calm down for a second... this is getting quite heated.... heh... just kidding.

Ok, no mean to intrude or anything, but I think my christian friends (whether they be calvinists or not, that doesn't matter much) have missed something crucial to this topic.

The question is about faith. How can we be sure of our salvation, etc etc?

There is a simple answer to this, and guess what? It's in the bible, and im utterly shocked that nobody thoguth about it before. w0w0w0w0w.

Hebrews 11 (several verses)

v1: Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

v3-4: By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

v6: 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

v8-10: By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

v13-16: All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

v24-28: By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

v39-40: These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

This text cannot be any clearer. She's asking, how can you be so sure of your salvation, etc etc. And, there is but only one answer, and it is: Faith. There is no other explanation.

Think about it for a second... How can you, LittleLion, be so sure that you are going to walk tomorrow? How can you be so sure that you'll wake up in the morning tomorrow? How can you be so sure? Surely, you don't generally think about these things because you are sooo confident (showing faith) that you are going to be awake tomorrow morning, or that you will be walking tomorrow. There is no other explanation for your questions. They aren't illogical questions, I agree, but you will never get the answer that you are looking for.

I'm sorry littlelion, but if my answer isn't good enough, then we know that there's a problem. No answer is good enough for you, should you not accept this one that is totally biblical, and totally logical. You don't know if you'll be making a post within the next hour or the next year, but you still believe that you will be (if you plan on doing so, that is), but you have faith that you will be posting something up on this forum, within another year or whatever. You have faith that you will be awake tomorrow morning. The same goes for the christian. We have faith that we are part of the elect, we have faith that we are going to heaven after our bodies die. We have faith in this, just like you have faith in waking up tomorrow morning.

Sincerely,

Randy

 

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

My points aren't off topic. They are questions in response to points that you brought up.

Nor have I debated apologetics with you. Everything I've said here is for the express purpose of answering your questions and trying to explain Christian teaching to you that would answer your questions.

I'm sorry you feel that I'm trying to debate you and I'm sorry that you won't accept my answers to you.

You don't seem to understand my quest at all.
It is not Christian beliefs per se that I am questioning.
I'll reply to your previous post, maybe then you'll see.


* * *


seekingpurity047,

This text cannot be any clearer. She's asking, how can you be so sure of your salvation, etc etc. And, there is but only one answer, and it is: Faith. There is no other explanation.

I don't think you understand me either.

Think about it for a second... How can you, LittleLion, be so sure that you are going to walk tomorrow? How can you be so sure that you'll wake up in the morning tomorrow? How can you be so sure?

I'm not sure about those things.

You don't know if you'll be making a post within the next hour or the next year, but you still believe that you will be (if you plan on doing so, that is), but you have faith that you will be posting something up on this forum, within another year or whatever. You have faith that you will be awake tomorrow morning.

I barely have such faith. I wouldn't be surprised if a tsunami came rolling to our house (and we live in the middle of country, far from sea or big rivers).
Nothing seems to surprise me.

 

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

Then tell me what they say.

1 John 5:11-13
The one who has the Son, has life. The on who does not have the Son, does not have life.

But how do you know you have the Son? How do you know you are not deluding yourself (because you wish so much to have Christ in your life) that you have the Son, when in fact it can be that you do not have Christ?


John 6:37

Whatsoever the Father gives to Christ, will come to Christ, and who comes to Christ will not be rejected.

All fine. But how do you know that you have come to Christ?

OK, so why do you tie a word to a definition you say has nothing to do with it?

I didn't. The Bible states that God hates Esau, which is in contradiction to stating that God loves all. It is the contradictions that bother me.
Of course, with proper additional study, such contradictions may be resolved, but without those studies, left to the plain biblical text, one is presented with contradictions, and in very emphatic terms.

Of ccourse. But how is one to know which verses translate awkwardly?

By studying the text in light of context.

Okay.

I've given you two verses that are very simpe to understand, very straightforward, and very easy to understand, but you say that you can't understand them.

I'm not saying I can't understand them. I am not sure how a person can be sure that they apply to them.

I've tried to help you understand a couple of passages of scripture and you just fight me. I'm starting to wonder if you're really sincere or if you're just playing games.

Yes, I have expected such an accusation. I'm not here to fight you. I envy you that you are so sure in your beliefs.

It's funny, but the only people I hear say that the Bible is hard are the ones who've never studied it.

The Bible is "hard" esp. to those who do not have a mind of their own, or are not sure of themselves.

See Romans 14:22-23.
Blessed is the one who does not condemn or judge himself for what he has decided.
I have doubts chasing me and it is as if my mind is not my own. I am not sure of anything I supposedly believe. Can you imagine this?

Please. I am saying that just because a person believes they believe in Christ does not mean that this belief, or faith, will be recognized as proper by Christ.

And when I asked you what kind of faith in Christ, Christ would not honor, you can't say.

Christ will not honor an improper faith. How can you be sure that you have the proper faith in Christ? Just because it is in Christ?

Even though YOU may think you are believing something with all your heart, this doesn't mean that God will accept it; maybe for God, you have been merely saying empty words, maybe God requires more than you think.

God has already told us what He requires.

How can you be sure that you indeed comply with those requirements?

You have such confidence in your own faith that you don't doubt it, so it's no wonder you can't understand me, just like Adstar doesn't.

Actually, that's not what I said. What I said is that I have confidence in the object of my faith, Jesus.

Again, you do not understand. I think Adstar and Scholar in training eventually understood my problem, but you don't.

You have confidence that your confidence in Jesus is proper.

To give another example.
How can you be sure you love someone? Can you trust your feelings, your mind, your heart? While you might think that you love someone, years later it can happen that you realize that you have not loved that person, that you were fooling yourself.

Similarly, it can happen that in some years, you might realize that your present faith in Christ was insufficient and faulty. Yet today, you act on it as if such a later realization were an impossibility.

?

 

[Nightfire]

You haven't answered my question.
How do you know you are not deluding yourself with wishful thinking?
A person can believe many things; but just because one believes them, doesn't make them true.

He did answer your question. He believes that Christ did what He came to do, and God did as He promised Israel. If God did not, and Christ did not, then we believe in vain. We do not believe on the basis of wishful thinking (because we know wishful thinking never accomplished anything) but on the basis of the testimony Christ brought, as recorded by his many disciples. That's the nature of belief. You can't believe in a thing and believe it's wishful thinking at the same time.

 

[Nightfire]

I didn't. The Bible states that God hates Esau, which is in contradiction to stating that God loves all. It is the contradictions that bother me.

But if your conclusion as to the reasons and consequences about God's hate for Esau does not rely on the Bible, what is your argument? It says nowhere that God did not save Esau, but you make that deduction. It only seems that God "hated" Esau on account of Jacob, through whom He would show His love to all of creation. We are told He picked Jacob over Esau for this purpose, "in order that God's purpose in election might stand". If God remained indecisive, waiting for either Jacob or Esau to "prove themselves", we would have been locked in a works-based salvation and election. But because God "hated Esau", we can know, through Jacob - the younger, weaker, less likely candidate - we have our present hope, and because of that, you may have the same hope without fearing that you are younger, weaker, and less likely to be saved.

Of course, with proper additional study, such contradictions may be resolved, but without those studies, left to the plain biblical text, one is presented with contradictions, and in very emphatic terms.

You mean, left to limited readings of difficult passages. They Bible contradicts many preconceptions we have, which is why we use it. "Esau I hated" may be an emphatic contradiction of "God loves everyone" simply because "God loves everyone" is not the final conclusion of the matter, while "Esau I hated" is. Esau lived and died, and the result of God's decisions became clear. None of us living have that benefit of hindsight, but we have Christ.

 

[Nightfire]

You have confidence that your confidence in Jesus is proper.

Because Jesus makes our imperfect faith perfect. He is the reason why it's proper at all. Not because we came to the right conclusions, but because He is who He is.

To give another example.
How can you be sure you love someone? Can you trust your feelings, your mind, your heart? While you might think that you love someone, years later it can happen that you realize that you have not loved that person, that you were fooling yourself.

Similarly, it can happen that in some years, you might realize that your present faith in Christ was insufficient and faulty. Yet today, you act on it as if such a later realization were an impossibility.

?

No, you can't trust your feelings for love, which is why Christian love is a decision, which once made ceases to depend on such feelings. That allows hard times to be overcome, and arguments to be solved, because they're never the final word - the decision is made knowing that feelings will sometimes fail to be enough. You respond to a current knowledge, aided by feelings at their proper time, and you remember that response, you maintain its validity - by not being unfaithful, by showing love, by paying attention, in short, by living up to your feelings and decisions. That's what makes them genuine for the other person, who in turn may expect such a promise to be held. And why marriage is not a promise made lightly.

Our present faith in Christ can never be shown insufficient or faulty, because He isn't insufficient or faulty.

2 Tim. 1:12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."​

This is what we believe. The only way our present confidence can become "faulty" is when we stop believing that. It is faulty, which is why we need Christ, and why we put our doubts and uncertainties to rest in Him.

 

[LittleLion]

Nightfire,

He did answer your question. He believes that Christ did what He came to do, and God did as He promised Israel. If God did not, and Christ did not, then we believe in vain. We do not believe on the basis of wishful thinking (because we know wishful thinking never accomplished anything) but on the basis of the testimony Christ brought, as recorded by his many disciples. That's the nature of belief.

This part I already know.
But:

You can't believe in a thing and believe it's wishful thinking at the same time.

I have doubts about this. Maybe my doubting what you are saying here is a sign of an agnosticism that has become pathological.

But if your conclusion as to the reasons and consequences about God's hate for Esau does not rely on the Bible, what is your argument? It says nowhere that God did not save Esau, but you make that deduction.

So we are at Abel and Cain, and God being glad at Abel's gift, and Cain being resentful for being overlooked by God?
Well, one sure would like some approval from God!

What I'm thinking is that if God doesn't show His approval (as He did not for Cain) -- does this mean God disapproves of the person and their doings?

Of course, with proper additional study, such contradictions may be resolved, but without those studies, left to the plain biblical text, one is presented with contradictions, and in very emphatic terms.

You mean, left to limited readings of difficult passages.

Hard to say. For a newcomer, it is hard to recognize a contradiction from a difficult passage.

You have confidence that your confidence in Jesus is proper.

Because Jesus makes our imperfect faith perfect. He is the reason why it's proper at all. Not because we came to the right conclusions, but because He is who He is.

But this means that faith in God is essentially different from any other kind of faith.

 

[PhilosopherDave]

12volt_man,




1 John 5:11-13
The one who has the Son, has life. The on who does not have the Son, does not have life.

But how do you know you have the Son? How do you know you are not deluding yourself (because you wish so much to have Christ in your life) that you have the Son, when in fact it can be that you do not have Christ?


John 6:37

Whatsoever the Father gives to Christ, will come to Christ, and who comes to Christ will not be rejected.

All fine. But how do you know that you have come to Christ?




I didn't. The Bible states that God hates Esau, which is in contradiction to stating that God loves all. It is the contradictions that bother me.
Of course, with proper additional study, such contradictions may be resolved, but without those studies, left to the plain biblical text, one is presented with contradictions, and in very emphatic terms.




Okay.




I'm not saying I can't understand them. I am not sure how a person can be sure that they apply to them.




Yes, I have expected such an accusation. I'm not here to fight you. I envy you that you are so sure in your beliefs.




The Bible is "hard" esp. to those who do not have a mind of their own, or are not sure of themselves.

See Romans 14:22-23.
Blessed is the one who does not condemn or judge himself for what he has decided.
I have doubts chasing me and it is as if my mind is not my own. I am not sure of anything I supposedly believe. Can you imagine this?




Christ will not honor an improper faith. How can you be sure that you have the proper faith in Christ? Just because it is in Christ?




How can you be sure that you indeed comply with those requirements?




Again, you do not understand. I think Adstar and Scholar in training eventually understood my problem, but you don't.

You have confidence that your confidence in Jesus is proper.

To give another example.
How can you be sure you love someone? Can you trust your feelings, your mind, your heart? While you might think that you love someone, years later it can happen that you realize that you have not loved that person, that you were fooling yourself.

Similarly, it can happen that in some years, you might realize that your present faith in Christ was insufficient and faulty. Yet today, you act on it as if such a later realization were an impossibility.

?

Littlelion,

I'm interjecting my view here in the middle of 12 volt man's response so that I can try to assist you a bit. I understand how a quotation from the Bible doesn't quite set your mind at ease. It seems that you are wanting to know 'how much' or of 'what quality' of faith one has to have to feel that salvation is being rendered and credited to you by God. Am I getting close? Help me here to see what you feel you are not finding.

About Esau. Although I don't think this is conclusive, I find it interesting that when the Apostle Paul states in Romans 9:13 (NASB) "Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.", the word usd for hated in the Greek is subject to context, as are many Greek words. In many places, it means literal hatred. But in a few context, it infers simply an 'inferior attachment', as in when Jesus says, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26)" This is what is called 'hyperbole' (you may have already known that, but you can fill me in on what you already know). Obviously, as you've already stated, this usage of figurative language can cause us contemporary, Western thinkers many interpretive headaches. We like our language to be streamlined, literal, and scientifically practical. Unfortunately, the culture of the N.T. writers didn't know that we would prefer that 2,000 years later.

About requirements. This is not a test question, but I'd like to know how you think that Matthew 17:19, 20 and Luke 17:5,6 might indirectly apply to how you are feeling right now? In these verses, how much faith does Jesus say that you need to achieve spiritual results?

Littlelion, I know that you are frustrated. What I'm sensing here is that you have a particular rational complexity in your mind that is inhibiting you from feeling some peace. (I'm not saying that it is rationality that is the problem, but rather that it might be the epistemological form of your rationality that is causing you some grief.) What are you expecting 'faith' to feel like?


God Bless -- PhilosopherDave

 

[seekingpurity047]

LittleLion, I'm sorry if I was unable to answer your questions (no matter how illogical they are).

The answer is still faith, and its always going to be faith. That's the only logical answer we can give you, but you want a bigger answer, kinda like the question of God by the atheist. The atheist only looks inside the box, but doesn't want to look beyond, quite sad actually.

Ok, let me ask you this question. Christopher Columbus discovered America, did he not? If he did, then you must have faith that he did, but you never saw him discover America because you weren't there 500 years ago. You have faith in something, everyone does. They jsut don't generally think about it. The same goes with Christ. We have faith taht He died for our sins, and will redeem us when we die. He will bring us into His holy presence and embrace us, becuase we put our faith in Him.

I'm sorry, but for your continuous questions, there is no answer beyond faith. You want more. Like "Prove that God exists" Take a look around. Not good enough. Just like David Hume. You won't accept the most simple answer, becuase you just say "There has to be more, it can't be that simple" Well guess what? It is.

That's all I have to say, this forum is getting out of hand, cuz the questions have become sooo illogical.

Randy

 

[LittleLion]

Philosopher Dave,

I'm interjecting my view here in the middle of 12 volt man's response so that I can try to assist you a bit. I understand how a quotation from the Bible doesn't quite set your mind at ease. It seems that you are wanting to know 'how much' or of 'what quality' of faith one has to have to feel that salvation is being rendered and credited to you by God. Am I getting close? Help me here to see what you feel you are not finding.

Exactly. My ever-present thinking that nothing is ever enough. Not in quality, not in quantity.

CS Lewis mentions in Surprised by Joy he was praying each night, as a child, and developed a ruthless discipline of always asking at the end of prayer "But have you really thought about it? Have you come to a conclusion?" and then the self-inquisition went on for hours, leaving him exhausted. Eventually, this was one of the reasons he abandoned his faith in his youth, for it was wearing him out -- that is, the way he was practising his faith was wearing him out.

My problem is similar. At the end of each thought, conclusion, decision, always the gnawing self-doubt crawls up and asks "Really?"
Come to think, this is what the serpent said -- "Did God really tell you that you must not eat of the tree?"

About Esau. Although I don't think this is conclusive, I find it interesting that when the Apostle Paul states in Romans 9:13 (NASB) "Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.", the word usd for hated in the Greek is subject to context, as are many Greek words. In many places, it means literal hatred. But in a few context, it infers simply an 'inferior attachment', as in when Jesus says, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26)"This is what is called 'hyperbole' (you may have already known that, but you can fill me in on what you already know).

Yes, I know this particular explanation.

Obviously, as you've already stated, this usage of figurative language can cause us contemporary, Western thinkers many interpretive headaches. We like our language to be streamlined, literal, and scientifically practical. Unfortunately, the culture of the N.T. writers didn't know that we would prefer that 2,000 years later.

Well, it's not just what we wish our language to be like. We shouldn't, after all, allow for some gross inconsistencies in our beliefs and the textual sources for them. It is reasonable to demand that a text be clear.

About requirements. This is not a test question, but I'd like to know how you think that Matthew 17:19, 20 and Luke 17:5,6 might indirectly apply to how you are feeling right now? In these verses, how much faith does Jesus say that you need to achieve spiritual results?

For a mustard seed of faith ...
Maybe the problem isn't faith, but in the expectation of results, depending on them. Also, I have this very bad habit of patronizing myself When I take up a study of something, I am both the teacher and the student; I do as if I already knew that which I am yet to learn! It is an old thing from school and esp. from home where we were always treated as if we were already supposed to know the things we were about to be taught.

Littlelion, I know that you are frustrated. What I'm sensing here is that you have a particular rational complexity in your mind that is inhibiting you from feeling some peace. (I'm not saying that it is rationality that is the problem, but rather that it might be the epistemological form of your rationality that is causing you some grief.)

That is right. Uh. I am so relieved I met you! You know the terms that name my problems in ways I understand.
I dont' want to be an intellectual though. I hate philosophizing. I want to be simple.

What are you expecting 'faith' to feel like?

No idea! Imagine this! All this time I have been going on about faith, but it is like a blank to me. As if in all this talking about faith I have forgotten what it is.
I think it dawns on me now that somewhere along the line, I have most likely confused faith and character/personality. They aren't completely separate, of course, but they aren't the same either.


* * *


seekingpurity047,

LittleLion, I'm sorry if I was unable to answer your questions (no matter how illogical they are).

The answer is still faith, and its always going to be faith. That's the only logical answer we can give you,

but you want a bigger answer, kinda like the question of God by the atheist.

No, don't think me so. I have resolved this long ago.

You have faith in something, everyone does. They jsut don't generally think about it.

This is a very good observation. Thank you.

That's all I have to say, this forum is getting out of hand, cuz the questions have become sooo illogical.

No. My problem is self-doubt. I'm even capable of doubting my own name.

 

[seekingpurity047]

LittleLion, thanks for your reply. This will surely be a short post for me

Have you read any Descartes lately, or something? Ya know, the whole doubt everything thing.

Randy

 

[Rafael]

2Peter 1:10 So, dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away.

Don't be confused by election. God has elected to make salvation available to all men and women. The fact that He stands outside of time and knows all things from beginning to end does not mean that He forces the hand of anyone unless it is to do good to those that love God, being the called according to His purpose. Pharoah's heart was know to God even within the womb of his mother, and if hardening and using that already committed to being a proud enemy of God brings about good and the testimony of God's power and provision for those that love Him - then that is not taking away free will of Pharoah, but redirecting the energy of evil to perform good for those that love Him.

Proverbs 1:29 For they hated knowledge and chose not to fear the LORD.
30 They rejected my advice and paid no attention when I corrected them.
31 That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[LittleLion]

LittleLion, thanks for your reply. This will surely be a short post for me

Have you read any Descartes lately, or something? Ya know, the whole doubt everything thing

I know. But Desi was fortunate to have surety of himself and his faith BEFORE he went on wondering about doubt.
I'm not sure it is possible to go in the other direction; from consistent doubt to surety in faith.

Namely, Desi postulated "I doubt everything, except that I doubt". That's a nice way to avoid the real problem.

 

[seekingpurity047]

Doubt will never get you anywhere unless you are sure of something else. But it is by faith that truth is revealed to us. It is by having faith that there is something more, there has to be. "I think therefore I am" however, could Descartes doubt that one? Can you doubt simply that you are? If so, explain how, cuz this is quite interesting.

Know this, whether you doubt or not, all things work out for the glory of God and the good of those who love God. You can doubt that, but I put my faith in that statement, I put my faith in Christ, for in Him there is truth and revelation, unlike the lies of this world.

May Christ's name be forever praised, Amen.

Randy

EDIT: You say that you aren't sure if you can go from doubt to faith, but everything is possible with God.

 

[PhilosopherDave]

Philosopher Dave,




Exactly. My ever-present thinking that nothing is ever enough. Not in quality, not in quantity.

CS Lewis mentions in Surprised by Joy he was praying each night, as a child, and developed a ruthless discipline of always asking at the end of prayer "But have you really thought about it? Have you come to a conclusion?" and then the self-inquisition went on for hours, leaving him exhausted. Eventually, this was one of the reasons he abandoned his faith in his youth, for it was wearing him out -- that is, the way he was practising his faith was wearing him out.

My problem is similar. At the end of each thought, conclusion, decision, always the gnawing self-doubt crawls up and asks "Really?"
Come to think, this is what the serpent said -- "Did God really tell you that you must not eat of the tree?"




Yes, I know this particular explanation.




Well, it's not just what we wish our language to be like. We shouldn't, after all, allow for some gross inconsistencies in our beliefs and the textual sources for them. It is reasonable to demand that a text be clear.




For a mustard seed of faith ...
Maybe the problem isn't faith, but in the expectation of results, depending on them. Also, I have this very bad habit of patronizing myself When I take up a study of something, I am both the teacher and the student; I do as if I already knew that which I am yet to learn! It is an old thing from school and esp. from home where we were always treated as if we were already supposed to know the things we were about to be taught.




That is right. Uh. I am so relieved I met you! You know the terms that name my problems in ways I understand.
I dont' want to be an intellectual though. I hate philosophizing. I want to be simple.




No idea! Imagine this! All this time I have been going on about faith, but it is like a blank to me. As if in all this talking about faith I have forgotten what it is.
I think it dawns on me now that somewhere along the line, I have most likely confused faith and character/personality. They aren't completely separate, of course, but they aren't the same either.


* * *


seekingpurity047,




No, don't think me so. I have resolved this long ago.




This is a very good observation. Thank you.




No. My problem is self-doubt. I'm even capable of doubting my own name.

Littlelion,

Well, I guess you would be technically correct to say that our own efforts before God, if He exist (I say this because I'm an existentialist when it comes to theology), could never be enough. We both know that the 'orthodox' answer would be that our own efforts are dirty rags and only Christ can cover our human deficiencies with God.

However, I take a more Kierkagaardian, Pascalian approach to faith. I chose Christianity and utilized it because I like it the best among paradigms. It gives my life form. It just so happnes that in utilizing faith this way, that one main source of Christian information, the Bible, hands me a message of paradox...that I really didn't do the choosing, even if I was 'leaping' like Kierkagaard--Christ chose me. On a practical scale, I don't feel chosen. Often my thoughts run so deep that, whether on the critical scale or in simply being sublime, that I fell disattached from this entity called Christianity. Funny though, its presence keeps coming back and pressing itself on me...I can't escape it. Am I worried whether or not its all true, well frankly, from a Kantian angle (along with the two mentioned above), I don't think that I could ever be conclusive empirically or rationally. Some Christians instead pride themselves on their 'evidentialism.' I sometimes like studying some things from that angle, but in the overall analysis, I still lean on God existentially. You may find that is all you can do too. I am almost convinced that supreme knowledge of God is really beyond our reach, and God has to deposit somehow in our lives and hearts His intent. It is almost mystical, but I'm to rational to go for sheer mysticism.

I'm also familiar with C.S. Lewis and his story. I really like him, although I've only read a couple of his books. However, I wouldn't rely on achieving some kind of certainty by hoping that I could duplicate his rational steps to arrive at belief and then faith. Some people try to use his stuff in that way. I take it as more rational/inspirational, but not evidential. We, as he, can get worn out by constantly looking for human proofs.

About Eve and the serpent. I'm not sure how analogous Eve's predicament is to yours. The text doesn't say 'don't touch', it just says "don't eat." I'm not so sure that the knowledge was gained by ingesting the fruit, by rather the knowledge was gained by the act of going against God's better judgement. Existentially, I've seen that the ethics of the Bible, in general, when clear and not obcured by ancient cultural conditions, have tended to work in my life. I guess in that sense, I am also a 'pragmatist'. (of course, being that I'm American, this comes easy for me.)

As for the clarity of the bible. I'm not sure that any piece of literature could ever achieve great clarity across cultures, let alone eons. It may have been clearer for those contemporary to the texts. My point is, so many things in the Bible appear to me to be intended to make us struggle. Then it gets rough when what is clear is parabolic and pointed to as being figurative.

Littlelion, I don't think you're going to find what you need to allay your inner turmoil by thinking that some concrete answer will be provided by God. Yes, I know most other Christians will disagree, and I'm not saying that God might never give some people a special insight into his 'realness.' But, so far, I haven't had that privelege, as did the apostles of Christ. You'll continue to give yourself a headache if you approach it that way. Instead, and this is just my suggestion, try to find ways to enjoy life...NOW...and incorporate what you can ethically and spiritually. If it turns out in the end that all you can have, by some people's definitions, is a mustard-seed faith...God won't turn you away for that.

By the way, thanks for signing the guestbook.

God Bless you in Slovenia (I'm guessing that is where you're from by your flag icon. I like European parts of the world. In fact, my wife is from Russia.)