How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

[LittleLion]

MidnightBlue,

How do you know that your (perceived) faith is not just wishful thinking?

How do you know that you are not just deluding yourself, and the perceived answers to your prayers are something that would have happened anyway?

If you mean, can I demonstrate my faith logically and scientifically, using unassailable facts, no. Why should that bother me?

That's not how I mean it. How can you be sure that YOU are of His flock?
Do you have such confidence in yourself that what you think about yourself in regards to being of His flock, that you never wonder you might just be indulging wishful thinking?

It is up to God to decide whether you are part of His flock or not. Just because you wish to be part of God's flock doesn't make you part of God's flock.

How can you be sure that YOU are one of the elect?

If Calvinism is what's troubling you, free yourself from the confines of Calvinism. Personally, I don't find it a very wholesome or useful way of thinking about God.

For one, you haven't answered my question.

For two, your suggestion against Calvinism ... Are you saying one should believe about God whatever way one feels best for oneself?
Should one stick to just those parts of the Bible that are convenient for one?

 

[12volt_man]

Again: How do YOU, 12volt_man, know that YOU are included?

Because I trust God's word and I believe the two verses I gave you. Did you read them?

Are you so sure of your beliefs?!

I'm that sure of Jesus' promise.

 

[LittleLion]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking us (1) whether we know that our faith is true, or (2) whether we know we are saved, assuming our faith is true?

I assume you are asking the second question. If so, then I think the better questions are: would God cast us off (reject us) if we came to him out of repentance? If he wouldn't cast us off, can't we examine our fruit to see if we are doing what God told us to do?

I am not asking the questions you mention.

Can you not imagine it is possible that someone so badly wishes to be saved that he thinks himself to be saved, to be one of the elect?
And in this, is merely deluding himself?

How do you know that you are not merely playing a part, lead by your wishful thinking?

It is after all God who decides whether you have indeed been sincere or not.

I am puzzled by the confidence I see believers have in their own persuasion that they are saved, one of the elect.

 

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

Because I trust God's word and I believe the two verses I gave you. Did you read them?

Of course I read them.

Are you so sure of your beliefs?!

I'm that sure of Jesus' promise.

Yes, YOU. YOU have so much surety in YOUR own belief that what Jesus said is true for YOU.
In effect, you just have confidence in yourself, which you transpose to others, Jesus in this case.

 

[MidnightBlue]

That's not how I mean it. How can you be sure that YOU are of His flock?

Assurance of salvation is not an issue for me. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, and leave the rest to him.

For one, you haven't answered my question.

See above.

For two, your suggestion against Calvinism ... Are you saying one should believe about God whatever way one feels best for oneself?
Should one stick to just those parts of the Bible that are convenient for one?

I don't believe Calvinism is supported by scripture or by reason. People have been arguing about Calvinism since it was introduced though, and I don't intend to get drawn into such an argument.

Should one stick to just those parts of the Bible that are convenient for one?

One should use reason and discernment in studying and interpreting the Bible; neither leads me to an acceptance of Calvinism.

 

[Scholar in training]

I am not asking the questions you mention.

Can you not imagine it is possible that someone so badly wishes to be saved that he thinks himself to be saved, to be one of the elect?

I can imagine that happening.

And in this, is merely deluding himself?

We would have to first determine what it means to be "saved". What do you believe that it means to be saved?

How do you know that you are not merely playing a part, lead by your wishful thinking?

If one is consistently doing what is required to be saved (to believe on the one God has sent, and to bear fruit), then can one merely be playing a part?

 

[LittleLion]

MidnightBlue,

I don't believe Calvinism is supported by scripture or by reason. People have been arguing about Calvinism since it was introduced though, and I don't intend to get drawn into such an argument.

I have been in one, just recently, and Calvinism has the best scriptorial support.
It is not particulary nice to humans though.

One should use reason and discernment in studying and interpreting the Bible;

In other words, one should read what one likes, and disregard the rest ...

Bottomline, you have unassailable confidence in yourself.

 

[MidnightBlue]

I have been in one, just recently, and Calvinism has the best scriptorial support.

You are entitled to your opinion, however erroneous it may be.

It is not particulary nice to humans though.

No, it's not. Do you believe God is crueler than humans are?

In other words, one should read what one likes, and disregard the rest ...

That's not what I said or what I meant. Your mind-reading skills need work.

Bottomline, you have unassailable confidence in yourself.

Bottom line: You don't know me, and your opinion of me is of no concern to me. Think what you like.

 

[LittleLion]

Scholar in training,

We would have to first determine what it means to be "saved". What do you believe that it means to be saved?

Personally, I don't have any particular belief. I know that different theologies understand it differently. So some say one is saved after death, that is, not going to hell. Some say one is already saved in this life ...

(I have been using the term with these discrepancies in mind though.)

If one is consistently doing what is required to be saved (to believe on the one God has sent, and to bear fruit), then can one merely be playing a part?

Yes. Self-delusion and denial can be very strong.

 

[12volt_man]

Of course I read them.

What part of them do you feel are not relevant?

Yes, YOU. YOU have so much surety in YOUR own belief that what Jesus said is true for YOU.
In effect, you just have confidence in yourself, which you transpose to others, Jesus in this case.

It has nothing to do with me.

I'm not so naive to think that any of my doings could possibly make me righteous.

I'm not so arrogant to think that Jesus died to reconcile me to God for any other reason than that He knew, as I know, that I couldn't do it, myself.

When I stand before God, all I can say is, "nothing in my hand I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling".

 

[LittleLion]

MidnightBlue,

You are entitled to your opinion, however erroneous it may be.

And you know what the truth is, you have such confidence in yourself.

No, it's not. Do you believe God is crueler than humans are?

I don't know. God is definitely stronger.

In other words, one should read what one likes, and disregard the rest ...

That's not what I said or what I meant. Your mind-reading skills need work.

I wasn't mind-reading.
But one must be very selective in reading the Bible if one wants to avoid the problematic points.

Bottom line: You don't know me, and your opinion of me is of no concern to me. Think what you like.

This isn't personal.
You have just made it clear, with your own example, that there are people who set their self-confidence above God's judgment, even though they say they believe in God.

 

[Scholar in training]

Personally, I don't have any particular belief. I know that different theologies understand it differently. So some say one is saved after death, that is, not going to hell. Some say one is already saved in this life ...

(I have been using the term with these discrepancies in mind though.)

I believe that being saved is a process. John 6:25-29 says that the work of God is to believe on the one he has sent (Jesus). IOW, we can't "earn" our salvation through works, but at the same time, faith without works is vain, just like thinking about helping someone but neglecting to give them tangible help is vain.

Yes. Self-delusion and denial can be very strong.

I don't understand. If a firefighter really saves someone from a fire, can his/her act of heroism be a form of self-delusion and denial? A Christian's belief that he/she is saved (if they can be so sure of it now) based on an examination of his/her faith and fruits is only worthless if God does not exist.

 

[LittleLion]

12volt_man,

What part of them do you feel are not relevant?

I don't find them irrelevant at all.
I am wondering what makes you so sure that YOU are addressed by them, and that YOU are one of the saved.
What makes you so sure that what the Scripture says is true for YOU?

It has nothing to do with me.

It has everything to do with you and your confidence that you think yourself as one of the saved. (If you do consider to be one of the saved, that is.)

I'm not so naive to think that any of my doings could possibly make me righteous.

I'm not saying that.

I'm not so arrogant to think that Jesus died to reconcile me to God for any other reason than that He knew, as I know, that I couldn't do it, myself.

When I stand before God, all I can say is, "nothing in my hand I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling".

How do YOU know God will accept YOU?
Or, if you believe that you are already saved, how come you have such confidence in yourself?
Do you never wonder that you may be merely deluding yourself, indulging wishful thinking, thinking you are one of the saved, when in fact you have no reason to believe so, other than your own confidence that you indeed are one of the saved?

Just because you see yourself clinging to God's cross does not mean that God will recognize you.
Just because you see yourself as having faith in God -- does this mean you truly have faith in God?

 

[MidnightBlue]

And you know what the truth is, you have such confidence in yourself.

It is my considered opinion that Calvinism is in error. It is your opinion that it is not. However, I have not reduced the disagreement to personal insult, as you have.

I don't know. God is definitely stronger.

If he's morally inferior to humans, there's no point in worshiping him or caring what he thinks, and there's no reason to think that a cruel and arbitrary God will be impressed with attempts to suck up.

I wasn't mind-reading.

You attributed a point of view to me that is not mine and that had no basis in what I said.

But one must be very selective in reading the Bible if one wants to avoid the problematic points.

Not really. Christians managed to read the Bible for a millenium and a half without falling into the errors of Calvinism.

This isn't personal.
You have just made it clear, with your own example, that there are people who set their self-confidence above God's judgment, even though they say they believe in God.

You say, "This isn't personal," and you follow it with a personal insult. Is that the kind of reason you employ in your interpretation of scripture?

 

[LittleLion]

Scholar in training,

I don't understand. If a firefighter really saves someone from a fire, can his/her act of heroism be a form of self-delusion and denial?

No, I'm not saying that.

A Christian's belief that he/she is saved (if they can be so sure of it now) based on an examination of his/her faith and fruits is only worthless if God does not exist.

So if one finds oneself sure of one's faith in God (with all the according works), then this is enough to believe you indeed have faith in God? God will acknowledge that?
Just because you think you have faith in God does not mean that God will acknowledge you.


Believe me, I am not writing this with a peaceful mind. Maybe I have more ability to doubt than other people.
I do not think it is right to be so sure of one's own beliefs about God.

 

[LittleLion]

MidnightBlue,


You chose to feel insulted.
I have no intention to insult you.

 

[Scholar in training]

So if one finds oneself sure of one's faith in God (with all the according works), then this is enough to believe you indeed have faith in God?

What do you believe qualifies as "having faith in God"?

God will acknowledge that?
Just because you think you have faith in God does not mean that God will acknowledge you.

Luke 12:8-9 (Jesus speaking):
"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

Would it be fair of God to reject me if I acknowledged him?

Believe me, I am not writing this with a peaceful mind. Maybe I have more ability to doubt than other people.

Who are you to say that Christians don't doubt their own salvation from time to time?

I do not think it is right to be so sure of one's own beliefs about God.

So, you are speculative when it comes to God, but not when it comes to accepting Calvinism as the standard for interpreting Scripture?

 

[12volt_man]

I don't find them irrelevant at all.
I am wondering what makes you so sure that YOU are addressed by them, and that YOU are one of the saved.
What makes you so sure that what the Scripture says is true for YOU?

You said you read the verses I gave you, but how can you have read the verse from John and not know?

It has everything to do with you and your confidence that you think yourself as one of the saved. (If you do consider to be one of the saved, that is.)

But, again, my confidence isn't in myself. I didn't save myself. I can't save myself.

I'm saved only by completely God's unmerited grace.

How do YOU know God will accept YOU?
Or, if you believe that you are already saved, how come you have such confidence in yourself?

Because, I believe in the promises of God and in the two verses I gave you earlier.

Do you never wonder that you may be merely deluding yourself, indulging wishful thinking, thinking you are one of the saved, when in fact you have no reason to believe so, other than your own confidence that you indeed are one of the saved?

Not really. It's hard to be that way when God's word is so emphatic.

Just because you see yourself clinging to God's cross does not mean that God will recognize you.

Of course it does. Scripture tells us over and over that it's by the cross that we're reconciled to God and made sons of His.

Do you know of any examples in scripture of anyone coming to God, through Christ, who was turned away?

Just because you see yourself as having faith in God -- does this mean you truly have faith in God?

Yes. I truly have faith in God.

How many times are you going to ask this question?

 

[Adstar]

You haven't answered my question.
How do you know you are not deluding yourself with wishful thinking?
A person can believe many things; but just because one believes them, doesn't make them true.

Your question did not ask if the elect existed or not. you asked:

"How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?"

Your question did not call into doubt the existence of an elect. Therefore my answer covered your question.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LittleLion]

Scholar in training,

What do you believe qualifies as "having faith in God"?

Again, personally, I am not sure, I only know of various theologies.

I am trying to find out what it is that I think. This may seem like an immature thing to say, or stupid, but I don't have the luxury of much self-confidence.
I thank everyone who listens to me; I have tried to sort things out for myself, by myself, and ended up more confused that I was when I began.

Luke 12:8-9 (Jesus speaking):
"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

Would it be fair of God to reject me if I acknowledged him?

But what if you are merely saying empty words, even before other men?
See Proverbs 15:8-9.

I just see no end to doubt.

Who are you to say that Christians don't doubt their own salvation from time to time?

I'm not saying they don't. I wonder what makes them so sure.

So, you are speculative when it comes to God,

I'm not speculative when it comes to God.
I am speculative when it comes to man's relationship with God.

but not when it comes to accepting Calvinism as the standard for interpreting Scripture?

I am not accepting Calvinism as the standard for interpreting Scripture, I apologize if it seems so.
My problem is that there are so many ways to understand the Bible.