How can we do greater works than Jesus? (John 14:12)

[Theo H.]

Usually, we will try to reason to ourselves that Jesus didn't really meant what he was saying literally, and thus was implying something else.

Well, there things get really tricky. If I think and act like that, then every time Jesus says something which I find challenging or which makes me uncomfortable, I can just say, “Okay, He probably didn’t mean that the way He put it.” And then I can just go on, thinking what I want to think, leading my life the way I want to lead it. I understand that there are many parables in the Bible, and other things which are not meant literally, but one has to be very careful with interpretations, I believe.

 

[Guojing]

Well, there things get really tricky. If I think and act like that, then every time Jesus says something which I find challenging or which makes me uncomfortable, I can just say, “Okay, He probably didn’t mean that the way He put it.” And then I can just go on, thinking what I want to think, leading my life the way I want to lead it. I understand that there are many parables in the Bible, and other things which are not meant literally, but one has to be very careful with interpretations, I believe.

Yes, I much prefer to understand his words as literally as I can, taking the audience and context into account.

 

[RandyPNW]

Well, this is an interesting thread. You say, "Jesus was perfect, and we are not," but this contradict His own commandments, "Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father Who is in Heaven is perfect". So yes, purification is needed in most cases, in my case for sure, but Jesus still wants us to be perfect like Him, right?

In context Jesus was not talking about sinless perfection since it was well understood from the Law that all Israel required sanctification and atonement. So Jesus is just giving the typical exhortation to avoid compromise, which is what he would mean by "imperfection." One may keep the whole Law and then in one instance compromise badly. That is being "imperfect."

Jesus' exhortation, then, to "be perfect" would ask the followers of the Law to keep the whole Law, and not omit certain areas of the Law where someone refuses to cooperate with God. It has nothing at all to do with being sinless as Jesus was sinless. It is a matter of adopting the complete standard of righteousness God set out for Israel, as opposed to mixing it with paganism.

As Christians we know that the Law has exposed all of mankind as unworthy of Salvation. We are all proven to have flaws, to have a sinful nature, tending towards sin. But Israel was called to embrace the Law regardless as an appeal for atonement, trusting that even as their own works of atonement fell short, God would see their faith and Himself provide for their atonement through mercy.

 

[Theo H.]

In context Jesus was not talking about sinless perfection since it was well understood from the Law that all Israel required sanctification and atonement. So Jesus is just giving the typical exhortation to avoid compromise, which is what he would mean by "imperfection." One may keep the whole Law and then in one instance compromise badly. That is being "imperfect."

Jesus' exhortation, then, to "be perfect" would ask the followers of the Law to keep the whole Law, and not omit certain areas of the Law where someone refuses to cooperate with God. It has nothing at all to do with being sinless as Jesus was sinless. It is a matter of adopting the complete standard of righteousness God set out for Israel, as opposed to mixing it with paganism.

As Christians we know that the Law has exposed all of mankind as unworthy of Salvation. We are all proven to have flaws, to have a sinful nature, tending towards sin. But Israel was called to embrace the Law regardless as an appeal for atonement, trusting that even as their own works of atonement fell short, God would see their faith and Himself provide for their atonement through mercy.

I don’t believe there is a permanent division between Jesus and us. That Jesus is sinless and we are not, that this is a fixed situation. I believe we are asked to be more like Jesus, to let our lives and minds be transformed by the Spirit of God, to become more Christ-like. And then we can perform the same miracles that He performed, by the Grace of God, and reach His perfection.

This is something I hear a lot of Christians state, that Jesus differs from us, a role-model of something that we can never really achieve. And then Jesus said things like, John 14:12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

He also said, I am the Light of the world, and: You are the Light of the world with me. Jesus makes many statements related to our Divinity. So I believe we are here to invite the transformation, to become perfect as He was and is. Amen!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus.

 

[Oneofhope]

Another proof that our works are not greater in essence is that there are some things we cannot do like forgiving sins like Jesus can for that would make us God.

John 20:23 NLT - 23 If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

 

[Oneofhope]

Redemption can take a long time

Really? I always understood it to mean that it takes as much time for Christ to Redeem a person from the captivity of the Devil as it takes to release a person from a human prison. Eating from the Tree of Life is Redemption.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Really? I always understood it to mean that it takes as much time for Christ to Redeem a person from the captivity of the Devil as it takes to release a person from a human prison. Eating from the Tree of Life is Redemption.

Hey... it is us the slows the process down. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

But let's not confuse two separate issues - being born again transfers us from one kingdom to another - our new status is as a Child of God.

However our condition needs a lot of cleaning up and this takes time.

For me after returning to faith from a shipwrecked life it took 7 years to be solid in the Lord. Paul had many years of preparation before he launched into ministry.

When Lazarus was raised he was alive from the dead but still had grave clothes on hindering his freedom - Jesus said unwrap him and let him go. New converts can be born again yet in need of unwraping the effects of past foolishness. This can take time.

 

[RandyPNW]

I don’t believe there is a permanent division between Jesus and us. That Jesus is sinless and we are not, that this is a fixed situation. I believe we are asked to be more like Jesus, to let our lives and minds be transformed by the Spirit of God, to become more Christ-like. And then we can perform the same miracles that He performed, by the Grace of God, and reach His perfection.

I don't personally think Christianity involves the "perfection" of our current mortal beings. We remain "fallen," and are able to draw upon the grace of Christ to "overcome" the sin tendencies. We certainly do "mature" over time, becoming habituated to following Christ and growing stronger in our obedience to him. But this is a far cry from disposing of our sinful tendencies.

We become "like Jesus" simply by "abiding in him," by "obeying him." By following God's word to our conscience every day we exhibit Jesus spiritually in our lives. He dwells in us not to "perfect our flesh," but so that he can show himself more powerful in us than our flesh tendencies.

This is something I hear a lot of Christians state, that Jesus differs from us, a role-model of something that we can never really achieve. And then Jesus said things like, John 14:12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

As I said, I don't believe this has to do with becoming more "perfect." To be "perfect" in context, in this passage, refers to maintaining the integrity of the whole of the Law, not excluding certain "undesirable" parts.

A more "perfect" obedience to the Law would be one in which a Jew is devoted to *all parts* of the Law, not excluding any part at all. It has nothing to do with "Sinless Perfection" since the entire Law was predicated on the constant need to deal with Israel imperfections!

All of the sin sacrifices, purification rituals, and attempts to curb paganism were designed to *fix Man* in his present state, as a opposed to completely change who he is. It is the addition of divine spirituality as a means to mitigate this problem as opposed to its ultimate resolution at the resurrection.

He also said, I am the Light of the world, and: You are the Light of the world with me. Jesus makes many statements related to our Divinity. So I believe we are here to invite the transformation, to become perfect as He was and is. Amen!

Our "divinity?" Whoa--that sounds pretty heretical!

 

[Theo H.]

Hey... it is us the slows the process down. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

But let's not confuse two separate issues - being born again transfers us from one kingdom to another - our new status is as a Child of God.

However our condition needs a lot of cleaning up and this takes time.

For me after returning to faith from a shipwrecked life it took 7 years to be solid in the Lord. Paul had many years of preparation before he launched into ministry.

When Lazarus was raised he was alive from the dead but still had grave clothes on hindering his freedom - Jesus said unwrap him and let him go. New converts can be born again yet in need of unwraping the effects of past foolishness. This can take time.

I think I get what you mean, Carl. The Grace of God doesn’t really need time to work miracles, but I can slow things down by sticking to my old ways, by being stubborn, by making mistakes. I have certainly done all those things. I am glad God is filling me with Love, Power and Wisdom to counterbalance all of this!

 

[Theo H.]

I don't personally think Christianity involves the "perfection" of our current mortal beings. We remain "fallen," and are able to draw upon the grace of Christ to "overcome" the sin tendencies. We certainly do "mature" over time, becoming habituated to following Christ and growing stronger in our obedience to him. But this is a far cry from disposing of our sinful tendencies.

We become "like Jesus" simply by "abiding in him," by "obeying him." By following God's word to our conscience every day we exhibit Jesus spiritually in our lives. He dwells in us not to "perfect our flesh," but so that he can show himself more powerful in us than our flesh tendencies.

As I said, I don't believe this has to do with becoming more "perfect." To be "perfect" in context, in this passage, refers to maintaining the integrity of the whole of the Law, not excluding certain "undesirable" parts.

A more "perfect" obedience to the Law would be one in which a Jew is devoted to *all parts* of the Law, not excluding any part at all. It has nothing to do with "Sinless Perfection" since the entire Law was predicated on the constant need to deal with Israel imperfections!

All of the sin sacrifices, purification rituals, and attempts to curb paganism were designed to *fix Man* in his present state, as a opposed to completely change who he is. It is the addition of divine spirituality as a means to mitigate this problem as opposed to its ultimate resolution at the resurrection.

Our "divinity?" Whoa--that sounds pretty heretical!

Hey RandyPNW,

I don’t mean perfection of the human being. I am talking about the purification of the mind. He that is in me, is greater than he that is in the world. The focus on the “He that is in me,” the Christ, the hope of glory, to heal me.

I don’t see how Divinity has anything to do with heresy, really. Doesn’t the Bible teach us:

“For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.”(Romans 8:14, NIV)

Becoming more like Jesus can often look like taking time, yet I also believe it can be done in the twinkling of an eye by “letting go and letting God!”

Have a blessed day….

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think I get what you mean, Carl. The Grace of God doesn’t really need time to work miracles, but I can slow things down by sticking to my old ways, by being stubborn, by making mistakes. I have certainly done all those things. I am glad God is filling me with Love, Power and Wisdom to counterbalance all of this!

Yes, but it is also about what God has appointed and when...

Even Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing first.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hey RandyPNW,

I don’t mean perfection of the human being. I am talking about the purification of the mind. He that is in me, is greater than he that is in the world. The focus on the “He that is in me,” the Christ, the hope of glory, to heal me.

I don’t see how Divinity has anything to do with heresy, really. Doesn’t the Bible teach us:

“For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.”(Romans 8:14, NIV)

Becoming more like Jesus can often look like taking time, yet I also believe it can be done in the twinkling of an eye by “letting go and letting God!”

Have a blessed day….

You may not be familiar with some of the terminology associated with the heresy of self-deification? You said, "Jesus makes many statements related to our Divinity." That is poor language, and suggests that Jesus taught we are God.

While it is true that the Bible suggests we partake of the "divine nature," this does not mean that we are Divine! So I suggest you look into this critical difference because it really is important that we not mislead others. There are in fact people who want to believe we obtain identification with Deity--not just partake of His spiritual gifts. Big difference!

I'm glad you're not talking about becoming Sinless and Perfect. In context the word may refer to sinless perfection or it can refer simply to maintaining a full proportion of something. the complete item.

For example, to make a "perfect pie," one would have to make the whole pie, and not just half a pie. That would be making a "perfect," or complete, pie.

Or, using the other definition, one would have to avoid mistakes in making the pie. We would not mistakenly add salt in place of sugar, or burn the pie in the oven. One definition of "perfect" refers to "complete," and the other to "unmarred."

To become "perfect" under the Law Jesus understood that obeying the Law required that no part of the Law be ignored. That is the "complete" definition of "perfect." God wants not just some of the Law to be obeyed, but all of it. He did not want Israel to avoid adultery but engage in murder. He did not want Israel to avoid idols, but then violate the Sabbath. The whole Law had to be observed to be "perfect."

The "renewal of the mind" is something different altogether. It has to do with focusing on Christ, as you suggested. It is a mindset we put on by putting our thoughts and mentality on Christ, who then communicates to us his own thoughts and mentality. We are actually receiving the revelation of Christ as it is presented to us and in this way are able to drive out wayward thoughts which assail all pretty regularly. Thanks for explaining! Hope you're having a blessed holiday season as well!

 

[Theo H.]

Yes, but it is also about what God has appointed and when...

Even Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing first.

Yes, I agree, Carl, we shouldn't just heal or move mountains without being guided to do so. It is all about aligning ourselves with God's Will (again). Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[Theo H.]

You may not be familiar with some of the terminology associated with the heresy of self-deification? You said, "Jesus makes many statements related to our Divinity." That is poor language, and suggests that Jesus taught we are God.

While it is true that the Bible suggests we partake of the "divine nature," this does not mean that we are Divine! So I suggest you look into this critical difference because it really is important that we not mislead others. There are in fact people who want to believe we obtain identification with Deity--not just partake of His spiritual gifts. Big difference!

I'm glad you're not talking about becoming Sinless and Perfect. In context the word may refer to sinless perfection or it can refer simply to maintaining a full proportion of something. the complete item.

For example, to make a "perfect pie," one would have to make the whole pie, and not just half a pie. That would be making a "perfect," or complete, pie.

Or, using the other definition, one would have to avoid mistakes in making the pie. We would not mistakenly add salt in place of sugar, or burn the pie in the oven. One definition of "perfect" refers to "complete," and the other to "unmarred."

To become "perfect" under the Law Jesus understood that obeying the Law required that no part of the Law be ignored. That is the "complete" definition of "perfect." God wants not just some of the Law to be obeyed, but all of it. He did not want Israel to avoid adultery but engage in murder. He did not want Israel to avoid idols, but then violate the Sabbath. The whole Law had to be observed to be "perfect."

The "renewal of the mind" is something different altogether. It has to do with focusing on Christ, as you suggested. It is a mindset we put on by putting our thoughts and mentality on Christ, who then communicates to us his own thoughts and mentality. We are actually receiving the revelation of Christ as it is presented to us and in this way are able to drive out wayward thoughts which assail all pretty regularly. Thanks for explaining! Hope you're having a blessed holiday season as well!

Well, maybe I was not expressing myself clearly enough. I do not believe human beings, personalities are Divine. I do believe that Christianity is about remembering the Divine in ourselves and associating with this again. There are many associations and remarks about this in the Bible, about what you could call “the mystical teachings of Jesus.” These are some example of Bible references to our Divinity:

“Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’?”
(John 10:34, NKJV)

“I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.”
(Psalm 82:6, NKJV)

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”
(Romans 12:1-2, NKJV)

‘Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”’
(John 3:3, NKJV)

“You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”
(1 John 4:4, NKJV)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, I agree, Carl, we shouldn't just heal or move mountains without being guided to do so. It is all about aligning ourselves with God's Will (again). Thanks for bringing this up.

I think it is more than that... We can't heal or move mountains unless the Father is doing it.

Nor could Jesus - that was what the temptation in the wilderness was all about - being asked to do what the Father wasn't doing.

So the real deal in healing is to first learn how to hear the Father and see what He is doing. Then to proclaim it is effortless - that is real faith - faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ.

This is generally not taught.

Folks are told they have the gifts - then use them (no reference whatever to whether it might be in Gods purpose)

Food for thought.

 

[Guojing]

I think it is more than that... We can't heal or move mountains unless the Father is doing it.

Nor could Jesus - that was what the temptation in the wilderness was all about - being asked to do what the Father wasn't doing.

So the real deal in healing is to first learn how to hear the Father and see what He is doing. Then to proclaim it is effortless - that is real faith - faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ.

This is generally not taught.

Folks are told they have the gifts - then use them (no reference whatever to whether it might be in Gods purpose)

Food for thought.

You are not in a standard charismatic church?

The main teaching there is using Isaiah 53:5, "by his stripes you are healed".

So Jesus on the cross has already paid for all the healing, it is up to each believer to receive it.

You don't agree with this teaching?

 

[Carl Emerson]

You are not in a standard charismatic church?

The main teaching there is using Isaiah 53:5, "by his stripes you are healed".

So Jesus on the cross has already paid for all the healing, it is up to each believer to receive it.

You don't agree with this teaching?

It depends what you mean...

The Cross is a timeless event and healing is through the Cross, guaranteed to the believer - but when it manifests is the issue.

To suit His purpose He heals some sicknesses in this life before resurrection time but there is no demanding this.

I don't follow the 'standard line' on this.

 

[Guojing]

It depends what you mean...

The Cross is a timeless event and healing is through the Cross, guaranteed to the believer - but when it manifests is the issue.

To suit His purpose He heals some sicknesses in this life before resurrection time but there is no demanding this.

I don't follow the 'standard line' on this.

Healing was guaranteed through the cross.

You may however not get healed in your lifetime because it does not suit his purpose to do so.

You don't think these 2 statements are contradictory?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Healing was guaranteed through the cross.

You may however not get healed in your lifetime because it does not suit his purpose to do so.

You don't think these 2 statements are contradictory?

Totally not.

The Cross secures our complete healing in eternity but when this manifests is subject to His will.

There has been too much false teaching linking healing to exercising faith.

Sure unbelief can frustrate the faith we are given, but faith is a gift given by personal hearing of His Word.

Some have the assurance of healing of a condition in this life, some don't.

Some who do have this personal revelation fall into unbelief and miss out on what He intended.

Some hang onto the Word they received and see the healing.

Further to all of this some are healed without faith at all (even before they believe)

So the idea of believers missing out on healing through 'lack of faith' (as if it was their fault) is flawed because not all are appointed to being healed.

Only those in whom He personally choses to glorify himself in this way, and speaks to about it, can expect healing, if they hold onto His Word in belief.