How can there be free will in heaven?

[BNR32FAN]

His Word does not change - and there is no deduction or assumptions as to whether it changes or not. Again he is lenient towards man - which is mercy

What Does the Bible Say About My Word Does Not Change?

He doesn't want man to eat meat but he allows it.

What does it mean that “My words will not pass away”? Does it mean that once God says something that He will not change it? I’ve already proven that interpretation to be false. God declared that He would destroy everyone in Sodom, yet Abraham convinced Him to spare Lot and his family. That link doesn’t provide one single passage that says that God will not change His commandments or His decrees.

 

[Sheila Davis]

There’s a difference between a deduction and an assumption. A deduction is a conclusion that can be reached according to the information available. An assumption is a conclusion that is reached that is not supported by the information available. We can deduce that Cain and Able were children of Adam by the information provided in the scriptures. We cannot deduce that they were their first born by the information provided in the scriptures which makes it an assumption. So those that clai
that Cain and Able are Adam’s first two born are making an assumption not a deduction.

My friend, I don't need to be educated in the difference between assumptions and deductions.
Scripture does not indicate anywhere that Adam and Eve had children before Cain therefore when the church teaches Cain and Abel were their first two children it is a deduction - a conclusion the churches came to by reasoning of what is or isn't written in Scripture.

Now when I say I believe Adam and Eve had children before Cain and Abel that is an assumption - my assumption, and which some churches are beginning to theorize - assumption because it does not list any children before Cain and Abel in Scripture.
Now we can go backwards and forwards on this which is pointless. So you believe the churches are assuming - so be it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

therefore when the church teaches Cain and Abel were their first two children it is a deduction - a conclusion the churches came to by reasoning of what is or isn't written in Scripture.

It cannot be deduced that they were the first two born because it is not stated in the scriptures which makes it an assumption.

 

[Sheila Davis]

What does it mean that “My words will not pass away”? Does it mean that once God says something that He will not change it? I’ve already proven that interpretation to be false. God declared that He would destroy everyone in Sodom, yet Abraham convinced Him to spare Lot and his family. That link doesn’t provide one single passage that says that God will not change His commandments or His decrees.

Maybe you feel you've proven, it I don't. Again God's Word hasn't changed, he still feels the same about everything he said. It is his mercy that brings leniency towards man - to let him get away with a number of things without suffering the consequences by permanent annihilation in judgment.

Now if you feel you proven your point - again so be it. We can go backwards and forwards on this too, which is pointless.

 

[Sheila Davis]

There’s a difference between a deduction and an assumption. A deduction is a conclusion that can be reached according to the information available. An assumption is a conclusion that is reached that is not supported by the information available. We can deduce that Cain and Able were children of Adam by the information provided in the scriptures. We cannot deduce that they were their first born by the information provided in the scriptures which makes it an assumption. So those that clai
that Cain and Able are Adam’s first two born are making an assumption not a deduction.

My friend, I don't need to be educated in the difference between assumptions and deductions.
Scripture does not indicate anywhere that Adam and Eve had children before Cain therefore when the church teaches Cain and Abel were their first two children it is a deduction - a conclusion the churches came to by reasoning of what is or isn't written in Scripture.

Now when I say I believe Adam and Eve had children before Cain and Abel that is an assumption - my assumption, and which some churches are beginning to theorize - assumption because it does not list any children before Cain and Abel in Scripture.
Now we can go backwards and forwards on this which is pointless. So you believe the churches are assuming - so be it.

 

[TedT]

What is stopping another fall?

When we were in our sins, we are enslaved by and addicted to evil which permeates every choice we make destroying our free will (free means uncoerced). But after rebirth we are cured from that addiction and the hold of evil over us is broken and we are called to be free, that is, to make decisions by our free will once again: Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. But as we can see from this verse, though we are free to choose to serve each other in love, we still remember the pleasures and profits of indulging in the flesh and this is sometimes chosen.

To rectify our fondness for sin GOD instituted a discipline of training in righteousness for all those whom HE has legitimately brought into HIS family, that is, HIS reborn elect. [Reprobate means counterfeit, the counterfeit people of GOD, the reprobate church not HIS children as per Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. or: their defect is that they are not HIS children...]

This suffering of painful discipline is described in Heb 12:5-11. Once our free will has been taught to never chose sin again we will be righteous and holy and heaven will be kept free from sin by our commitment to a loving holiness ruling our free will BY OUR FREE WILL just like GOD's commitment to loving holiness makes it impossible for HIM to need to ever create any evil. Once someone has seen by personal experience the utter degradation and suffering caused by rebellion to all that is good and has been brought to righteousness, what incentive can there be to entice him to sin again?

AS for Adam and Eve, I must contend that our creation was not as perfected people but as able to become perfect / finished by our free will either by choosing to accept YHWH as our GOD and able then to become perfectly righteous and holy in HIS sight OR able to become perfectly and eternally evil by choosing by their free will to reject YHWH as their GOD. Those chosen to be HIS elect were those who chose to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and those who become the Satanic demons were those who chose to put their faith in HIS being a false god and a liar, and, as the first sinner therefore the most evil person in reality. The good but sinful seed of the parable of the weeds (Matt 13 in two parts) are those people of the kingdom (ie the elect) who became sinful when they idolized the Satanic over the command of GOD and refused to stand with HIM in the judgment of the reprobate, forcing the postponement of the judgement until they are holy...

Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference t the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

Thus the sins of these good, ie, elect, seeds separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth.
nce they are trained in righteousness, by harsh discipline, they will never chose to sin again as they have eaten of the knowledge of both good and evil...and have learned to be righteous.

 

[TedT]

No. You are a sinner because you are a descendant of Adam after he allowed sin in. Every man is born with the sin nature. That is why you must be born again. Read John 3.

Sure every man is born with a sin nature but it is impossible that this is how he was created...

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

This implies that GOD would always save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, no matt what HE had to do. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path and all free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable or they cannot be considered to be free from all coercion.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.

 

[Clare73]

There is no verse that supports the idea that Adam could’ve lived 930 years without sinning.
No one else other than Christ has been able to accomplish such a miraculous feat

Because Jesus lived in a world of sin, where it is a whole lot harder to remain righteous.

Adam would have not, it would have been a perfect world if he had passed his trial.

However I suppose it is within the realm of possibility that he could’ve died before ever having sinned since if he had died before he ate from the tree of knowledge then you’d be correct. No scripture actually says that we lost the ability to live without sin because of Adam’s fall.
We all have the same nature Adam had ever since he was created.

Are you sure about that?

Ever heard of "fallen nature". . .the one that makes us "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3)?
Ever read Romans 7?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because Jesus lived in a world of sin, where it is a whole lot harder to remain righteous.

Adam would have not, it would have been a perfect world if he had passed his trial.

Are you sure about that?

Ever heard of "fallen nature". . .the one that makes us "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3)?
Ever read Romans 7?

Yes I’ve read Romans 7 more times than I can recall, is there a particular verse you’d like to emphasize in Romans 7 because Adam isn’t mentioned or referred to in the entire chapter nor is he mentioned or referred to in Ephesians 2:3 except when Paul uses the term “the rest”.

“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

Yes I’ve read Romans 7 more times than I can recall,
is there a particular verse you’d like to emphasize in Romans 7

How about Romans 7:14-23, and "sinful nature" (v.18; i.e., "flesh," as opposed to regenerated spirit).

because Adam isn’t mentioned or referred to in the entire chapter nor is he mentioned or referred to in Ephesians 2:3 except when Paul uses the term “the rest”.
“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You really know nothing of the doctrine of the fallen nature of man by the fall of Adam?

 

[BNR32FAN]

How about Romans 7:14-23, and "sinful nature" (v.18; i.e., "flesh," as opposed to regenerated spirit).

You really know nothing of the doctrine of the fallen nature of man by the fall of Adam?

I fail to see the connection of our conflicting nature to the discussion of Adam’s fall and the doctrine of original sin. Can you please elaborate on how these two are connected or how our conflicting nature is relevant to this discussion?

 

[Clare73]

I fail to see the connection of our conflicting nature to the discussion of Adam’s fall and the doctrine of original sin. Can you please elaborate on
how these two are connected or
how our conflicting nature is relevant to this discussion?

In response to the comment that no one else could have lived the sinless life which Jesus lived, I noted that:
Since Adam, we have had a fallen nature living in a world of sin, which fallen nature and inclination to sin (Romans 7:14-23) Jesus did not have, thereby giving him a "leg up" in being sinless.

The doctrine of "original sin" is simply Romans 5:12-15, 18, where sinful (first) Adam's guilt is imputed to all those born of Adam, as the pattern (Romans 5:14) of sinless (second Adam) Christ's righteousness (Romans 3:21) imputed to all those born of Christ. (Romans 4:1-11).

So: our "conflicting" (fallen) nature and inclination to sin (Romans 7:14-23) is the result of Adam's fall.
Its relevance to the discussion is in the comparison of Jesus' ability to be sinless and our ability to be sinless; i.e., he had a "leg up," which is not to infer a mitigation of man's sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The doctrine of "original sin" is simply Romans 5:12-15, 18, where sinful (first) Adam's guilt is imputed to all those born of Adam, as the pattern (Romans 5:14) of sinless (second Adam) Christ's righteousness (Romans 3:21) imputed to all those born of Christ. (Romans 4:1-11).

You agreed previously that we do not inherit Adam’s guilt of his sin but instead we inherited his sinful nature and are only guilt of our own sins.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Since Adam, we have had a fallen nature living in a world of sin, which fallen nature and inclination to sin (Romans 7:14-23) Jesus did not have, thereby giving him a "leg up" in being sinless.

Since Adam means everyone including Adam. If Adam didn’t have a sinful nature before the fall there wouldn’t have been a fall.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So: our "conflicting" (fallen) nature and inclination to sin (Romans 7:14-23) is the result of Adam's fall.

There’s nothing in that passage that gives any indication of when man received his sinful nature, there’s nothing even remotely mentioning Adam or the fall of man. Paul is talking about his sinful nature yes but he doesn’t give any indication or mention of when man received his fallen nature. We know where we got it from, we got it from Adam, but there’s no scripture that indicates that Adam didn’t have his sinful nature before the fall.

Its relevance to the discussion is in the comparison of Jesus' ability to be sinless and our ability to be sinless; i.e., he had a "leg up," which is not to infer a mitigation of man’s sin.

Jesus’ ability to remain sinless is due to the fact that He is God, therefore He cannot sin. God cannot transgress or rebel against Himself.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Since Adam means everyone including Adam. If Adam didn’t have a sinful nature before the fall there wouldn’t have been a fall.

Adam was NOT created with the sin nature. He was created with free will. He could choose to obey or disobey. Adam was created in the very image of our Father. Your saying that Adam had the sin nature before the fall is misleading and wrong.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Jesus’ ability to remain sinless is due to the fact that He is God, therefore He cannot sin. God cannoatiot transgress or rebel against Himself.

How many times in scripture tha Lord Jesus identified Himself As the son of man.He died as a man, not as God. He had to be man in order to be our propitiation/substitute in the shedding of His blood/death on the cross.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam was NOT created with the sin nature. He was created with free will. He could choose to obey or disobey. Adam was created in the very image of our Father. Your saying that Adam had the sin nature before the fall is misleading and wrong.

Yeah well your definitely entitled to your opinion but just because you claim something is true doesn’t make it so. We are all made in God’s image no different than Adam was.

“But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;”
‭‭James‬ ‭3‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to James here, and several other verses in scripture, Adam wasn’t the only man that was made in God’s image. So you can write in all caps all you want but that provide a shred of evidence to support your claim.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How many times in scripture tha Lord Jesus identified Himself As the son of man.He died as a man, not as God. He had to be man in order to be our propitiation/substitute in the shedding of His blood/death on the cross.

So you believe in Nestorianism then? That was refuted at the council of Ephesus in 431AD at which they clearly determined that Jesus was both fully man and fully God in the flesh.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

So you believe in Nestorianism then?

I have no idea what this is.