How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

EmSw said:

Read the Old Testament and tell me what grace is. It's finding favor is the eyes of the Lord. How does one find favor in the eyes of the Lord?

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In the Old Testament they lived under the law. Do Christians live under the law?

Was I correct in stating that your definition of grace is:
Doing something that God likes?

Tinyarch said:

In the Old Testament they lived under the law. Do Christians live under the law?

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Do you keep the 10 commandments?

Tinyarch said:

Was I correct in stating that your definition of grace is:
Doing something that God likes?

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My definition is finding favor in the eyes of God.

EmSw said:

Do you keep the 10 commandments?



My definition is finding favor in the eyes of God.

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I try to , but I do break the 10 commandments.

In your definition do you find favor by obeying the law and the 10 commandments?

What if you break one of the 10 commandments and fall out of favor? What happens then?

Tinyarch said:

I try to , but I do break the 10 commandments.

In your definition do you find favor by obeying the law and the 10 commandments?

What if you break one of the 10 commandments and fall out of favor? What happens then?

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Favor is acceptance to God.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

If someone breaks one or more of the 10 commandments, there is repentance and forgiveness.

Tinyarch said:

Does this fit with the concept of "already, not yet?"

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I'm not understanding your question.

EmSw said:

You may be able to deceive some on here, but I'm not buying it. You say some grace is irresistible and some resistible. That is what is ridiculous........

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Read my post again.

Any thinking person can see that what is "ridiculous" is your saying that what I laid out for you was ridiculous.

Every good thing that comes down from Heaven is given to us by grace.

Some things we can resist and some things are irresistible.

I explained it very simply and very clearly. Any argument from you can only come from wanting to argue for it's own sake.

God ahead on if you must.

EmSw said:

Favor is acceptance to God.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

If someone breaks one or more of the 10 commandments, there is repentance and forgiveness.

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Is Acts 10:34 important?

So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

I don't understand your first sentence.

"Favor is acceptance to God."

What does that mean?

Do we find favor by obeying the law? If so, why did Jesus die on the cross?

Marvin Knox said:

I'm not understanding your question.

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I've heard Christians use the phrase to say that they have a position of acceptance in Christ, that makes them perfect before God, yet our perfection is not yet attained as we live life here on earth.

Marvin Knox said:

I explained it very simply and very clearly. Any argument from you can only come from wanting to argue for it's own sake.

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Not exactly that simple.
For another kind of example where it is as far as we can determine no one's fault initially,
is when someone who is challenged by constant pain , paralysis, physiological imbalances,
circumstances beyond their control (like being homeless or in prison or under control of very strict house parents)
or bound by known and unknown rules of a group they are in and are defending believing that the group is absolutely to be obeyed or else;

many of these life situations exist, and cannot be known on an anonymous bulletin board or forum or chat room.

Tinyarch said:

yet our perfection is not yet attained as we live life here on earth.

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Yet still, LOOK TO HIS WORD: (not current mess on earth)
how many times are the ecclesia [immersed in Y'SHUA believers]
in the NEW TESTAMENT (and YHWH'S PEOPLE in TORAH/OLD TESTAMENT)
called by YHWH perfect, holy, blameless, "in union with Y'SHUA daily", (many times),
continually full of PEACE, JOY, RIGHTEOUSNESS and the holy SPIRIT....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yet still, LOOK TO HIS WORD: (not current mess on earth)
how many times are the ecclesia [immersed in Y'SHUA believers]
in the NEW TESTAMENT (and YHWH'S PEOPLE in TORAH/OLD TESTAMENT)
called by YHWH perfect, holy, blameless, "in union with Y'SHUA daily", (many times),
continually full of PEACE, JOY, RIGHTEOUSNESS and the holy SPIRIT....

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I have no idea what you just said. All I know is you use pretty colors.

Tinyarch said:

I have no idea what you just said. All I know is you use pretty colors.

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No worries.
All I said was , basically, read the BIBLE

to see

where the people are holy, blameless, perfect, righteous, willingly and joyfully followers of JESUS.

and in the OLD TESTAMENT TOO - holy and righteous and followers of YHWH (GOD).

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No worries.
All I said was , basically, read the BIBLE

to see

where the people are holy, blameless, perfect, righteous, willingly and joyfully followers of JESUS.

and in the OLD TESTAMENT TOO - holy and righteous and followers of YHWH (GOD).

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They stand righteous before God by faith, but they certainly committed some terrible sins on earth. David is a good example.
Already, not yet.

Tinyarch said:

They stand righteous before God by faith, but they certainly committed some terrible sins on earth. David is a good example..

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They were forgiven on earth and in heaven. They turned to YHWH, and "went and sinned no more". David is a good example ! yes !

Y'HSHUA says TODAY "go and sin no more".
And HE SHOWS HOW. And if you mess up, HE provides a remedy what to do.

They are called righteous on earth, while still on earth, by YHWH in HIS WORD.
In the NEW TESTAMENT TOO - ecclesia born again, abiding in Y'SHUA - LIVING DAILY IN UNION WITH Y'HSUA = echad same as YHWH with Y'SHUA.

They lived DAILY DOING WHAT IS RIGHT. DAY after day after day after day often for a lifetime after being saved.

They did not say "oh, it's okay to sin..... " no - they abhorred sin.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

They were forgiven on earth and in heaven. They turned to YHWH, and "went and sinned no more". David is a good example ! yes !

Y'HSHUA says TODAY "go and sin no more".
And HE SHOWS HOW. And if you mess up, HE provides a remedy what to do.

They are called righteous on earth, while still on earth, by YHWH in HIS WORD.
In the NEW TESTAMENT TOO - ecclesia born again, abiding in Y'SHUA - LIVING DAILY IN UNION WITH Y'HSUA = echad same as YHWH with Y'SHUA.

They lived DAILY DOING WHAT IS RIGHT. DAY after day after day after day often for a lifetime after being saved.

They did not say "oh, it's okay to sin..... " no - they abhorred sin.

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I know you're trying to say something, but it feels like I'm reading tongues. I need an interpreter when you write. Can you just write in a common English?

Tinyarch said:

I know you're trying to say something, but it feels like I'm reading tongues. I need an interpreter when you right. Can you just write in a common English?

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Read the BIBLE.
Old Testament and New Testament.

That may be the only place you have a chance to see TRUTH,

if YHWH (GOD) permits.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Read the BIBLE.
Old Testament and New Testament.

That may be the only place you have a chance to see TRUTH,

if YHWH (GOD) permits.

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Sure. The Bible needs to be read. It is God's word. Yet, many people use the Bible for their own selfish reasons, not to listen to God, but to bully people and guilt them into doing something that the person wants.

Your comment, however, does not define grace.

What makes grace so hard to define?

The definition I use for Grace is:

"God giving us something we never deserved."

Mercy is:

"God NOT giving us what we DO deserve."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Not exactly that simple.
For another kind of example where it is as far as we can determine no one's fault initially,
is when someone who is challenged by constant pain , paralysis, physiological imbalances,
circumstances beyond their control (like being homeless or in prison or under control of very strict house parents)
or bound by known and unknown rules of a group they are in and are defending believing that the group is absolutely to be obeyed or else;

many of these life situations exist, and cannot be known on an anonymous bulletin board or forum or chat room.

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I'm afraid that after reading your post I have no idea what you mean by it.

How does that tie into what I explained to EmSw?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

They did not say "oh, it's okay to sin..... " no - they abhorred sin.

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I know the post was not for me in particular.

Maybe I missed a post by someone along the line.

But do you feel that someone here is saying that "it's Okay to sin" and does not abhor sin?

Inkfingers said:

God chooses to make some resist and some not.

Hence he hardened the heart of Pharaoh and puts faith in the heart of believers.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:21-23)

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Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate).

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?

Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual, but is this “letter” being written to non-Christians?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.





Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is a great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since the left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this is Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul also points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Tinyarch said:

I've heard Christians use the phrase to say that they have a position of acceptance in Christ, that makes them perfect before God, yet our perfection is not yet attained as we live life here on earth.

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I never heard that phrase.

But I do believe that we stand perfect before God.

I do not believe that we are perfect here on earth. Which is the reason there is a judgment to come for every man including saved men.

Particularly for "teachers" who publish their teaching on the internet by the way. That includes both good teachers and bad teachers.

I do not believe that we can attain perfection here on earth. I certainly don't know of anyone who would claim that they have.

It seems to me that the scripture is pretty clear that all of us have sin and will have sin until glorification (or at least death).