How can one respond to the scientific facts known in the Quran?

[Albion]

In Christianity, God was killed and humiliated.

In Christianity, God was NOT killed, if by that you mean (as I think you do) that God was extinguished.

The human nature that God assumed for a purpose was killed, but the central event in the story of God's life among Men is that they could NOT kill him, even though they put to death that physical nature he had assumed. This is all very well recounted in the Bible.

 

[Greengardener]

When the angels said, “O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ]. He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous. She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” [The angel] said, “Such is Allah [God]; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is,” (Surah 3, 45-47).

And when Allâh said, `O Jesus, son of Mary! did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allâh?"' He (-Jesus) replied, `Glory to You! it was not possible and proper for me to say thing to which I had no right. If I had said, You would indeed have known it, (for) You know all that is in my mind but I do not know what is in Yours. It is You alone Who truly know all things unseen.

Fascinating, and thank you for the citations as well so I can find those verses. The verses about Mary mirror the Bible verses in Luke that I have already read and believe. But nothing that I've read in the Bible elevates Mary to be more than a very blessed woman, not a god. The Bible tells us not to speak to (communicate with) dead people, and as far as I know Mary is yet dead. For those two reasons it wouldn't even appeal to me to pray to her. This raises two more questions. What does Messiah mean to Muslims? What else is said about Jesus?

 

[SkyWriting]

Wait..what? Fire tornadoes are everywhere in fire cooking, and any kind of fire is a tornado? Is that the reason why we didn't knew them until they were discovered in the 19th century? I'm sure that you are making this up. I'm also sure that if I talked to you about the fire tornados in the 18th century, you might though crazy of me.

Every fire I've ever lit in my backyard has small twisters in it.
The larger any fire, the larger the twisters.
Every Boy Scout in the world can tell you about fire twisters.
Boy Scouts before Christ (B.C.) could tell you about them.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We had a good number of books back then
That's how we learned history, and how we obtained some detailed information on some specific incidents. It would be weird how someone out of all these people saw a fire tornado in the action, and didn't talk about although it has been reported in the Islamic the history, that the Prophet Muhammad(May peace be upon him) usually talked about the extraordinary events that occurred to him. For instance, he told us about Al-Isra' and Al mi'rag, and he told us about the animal that he rode to the seventh heaven. Moreover, not a single historian, not a philosopher, not a scientist mentioned anything about a fire tornado. It even wasn't known until the 19 century. Most people even today don't know that such a thing exists.

You keep saying fire tornadoes weren't known until the 19 century - having quoted a mention of them in the Quran which contradicts that

I found a quote by a 'fire historian' saying, "there have been references to fire tornados since the 19th century", but that just means he doesn't know any earlier references. Fire & wind have been around longer than humans, so to suggest they weren't known earlier than the 19th century seems rather unlikely.

Anyhow, you asked for responses, and you got them. I think you're fooling yourself; Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

 

[Michael]

You keep saying fire tornadoes weren't known until the 19 century - having quoted a mention of them in the Quran which contradicts that

I found a quote by a 'fire historian' saying, "there have been references to fire tornados since the 19th century", but that just means he doesn't know any earlier references. Fire & wind have been around longer than humans, so to suggest they weren't known earlier than the 19th century seems rather unlikely.

Anyhow, you asked for responses, and you got them. I think you're fooling yourself; Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

I'd imagine that a good campfire would produce them occasionally, and certainly wild fires produce them. Humans have been building fires for *thousands* of years, if not tens of thousands of years. It would be hard to believe that humans since time immemorial *didn't* know what a fire tornado looked like.

 

[TruthSeeker321]

As others have pointed out to you in this thread, your "interpretation" of the term "knocker" is itself rather suspect. The meaning of that single word in the Qur'an is interpreted differently in that passage by different individuals, so even your assertion that it means what you think it means, is debatable.

What about all the other things that are listed in the video that was cited earlier which are recorded in the Qur'an which are scientifically false? You haven't addressed any of those things, just the ideas that you're interested in asserting as being "correct" while ignoring the passages which are scientifically *incorrect*.

You appear to be "cherry picking" when it comes to what's recorded in the Qur'an, and making dubious assumptions about the meaning of individual words. It doesn't come across as being a convincing argument I'm afraid.

I am afraid that you are looking out for lame interpretaion. At first, you claimed that it may refer to a normal star, and now you're denying it all. I'm quite sure that you believed other people's interpretation because it goes well with your belief not because you ruled out all other possibilities and realized that their one is the true interpretation. Furthermore, you believe that there're scientific errors in the Quran as shown in the video because it goes well, and doesn't contradict your belief. I'm sure that you didn't make sure that those errors are actual errors, and not just plain assumptions.

 

[TruthSeeker321]

I'd imagine that a good campfire would produce them occasionally, and certainly wild fires produce them. Humans have been building fires for *thousands* of years, if not tens of thousands of years. It would be hard to believe that humans since time immemorial *didn't* know what a fire tornado looked like.

You have a good imagination. I would like to say again that we didn't know something called a fire tornado until they were discovered recently. Scientists since the creation of earth would talk about phenomenon, and they mostly talked about the usually occurring one. It's really a bit hilarious to see that there wasn't any single scientist until the 19th century to describe the fire tornado phenomenon, considering that they are extremely rare, and would usually happen in places that have the ability to produce a tremendous amount of fire. I also wonder how many times how you ever seen a fire tornado in your life.

 

[TruthSeeker321]

You keep saying fire tornadoes weren't known until the 19 century - having quoted a mention of them in the Quran which contradicts that

I found a quote by a 'fire historian' saying, "there have been references to fire tornados since the 19th century", but that just means he doesn't know any earlier references. Fire & wind have been around longer than humans, so to suggest they weren't known earlier than the 19th century seems rather unlikely.

Anyhow, you asked for responses, and you got them. I think you're fooling yourself; Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

They weren't know to people. Even the scholars who would explain the verses of Quran, described them as a very far description from that a fire tornado. They thought the verse was talking about normal tornadoes causing fire, which is plausible as fire tornados are extremely rare, and happen in certain places.

I'm not fooling myself. I'm following the truth. You keep guessing, and making assumptions without any evidence.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You keep guessing, and making assumptions without any evidence.

 

[TruthSeeker321]

Fascinating, and thank you for the citations as well so I can find those verses. The verses about Mary mirror the Bible verses in Luke that I have already read and believe. But nothing that I've read in the Bible elevates Mary to be more than a very blessed woman, not a god. The Bible tells us not to speak to (communicate with) dead people, and as far as I know Mary is yet dead. For those two reasons it wouldn't even appeal to me to pray to her. This raises two more questions. What does Messiah mean to Muslims? What else is said about Jesus?

Thanks for the respectful post. To begin with, the Messiah is an Arabic name for Jesus. Messiah is Jesus himself. In addition, Jesus did do miracles, but by the will of God. The Quran says:

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
(Quran 3:49)
Jesus even in the Bible didn't even when the hour is although God is supposed to be all knowing.

Mark 13:32
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[Aldebaran]

Thanks for the respectful post. To begin with, the Messiah is an Arabic name for Jesus. Messiah is Jesus himself. In addition, Jesus did do miracles, but by the will of God. The Quran says:

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
(Quran 3:49)
Jesus even in the Bible didn't even when the hour is although God is supposed to be all knowing.

Mark 13:32
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Does Allah know the hour (of His return)? Is it told somewhere in the Quran?

 

[Greengardener]

TruthSeeker 321, Some people reading the Bible don't realize that the time of the return of Jesus and the end of the world as we have known it is in many ways dependent on how quickly humanity fills up the cup of indignation - in other words, how quickly we get so bad that it's worth it to end it all. In the Bible story Jonah was sent as a prophet to tell the Ninevah people that in 40 days Ninevah would be destroyed. But they repented, so God didn't destroy them - at least not in that time. History says they didn't stay repented but went back to their destructive ways. All of the nations that this God was angry with were doing horrible things to their culture, even burning their children to idols. God wanted them to stop living like that. To me this demonstrates the mercy of God, because what He wants is for people to repent and live holy and righteous lives. Over and over I see where God doesn't want us to exercise dominion over others. He gave each of us freedom, even if it means being free to disobey. But we all have consequences for our actions and would be lost if it weren't for the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus wasn't killed because he was weak but because he lay down his life for our errors, and he took his life up again after 3 days as he said. I don't recall any stories about clay birds in the witness accounts that I read, but I did read that history supports that those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed and wrote about. I thought Messiah meant "annointed one," and referenced other verses in the older parts of the Bible, spoken hundreds of years before, that God would send a special person who would be not only able to identify with the God-family but would make a way for us to be God's children as well. It's a big story to believe, for sure, but experiencing His love made a big change in my life and causes me to want to obey Him - not for fear of punishment but out of love for how much love He showed me. Do you have that kind of information in the Qu'ran?

I don't know for sure, but it appears that freedom is not a concept consistent with the story of the Qu'ran. And in explaining what I read in the Bible that is well supported in history, it is likely I deeply offend the story you have read in your book. For that I am very saddened. I don't think you will find followers of the real Jesus to be willing to hate you for having been raised with a different story, but would offer to tell you about God's love shown in the sacrifice of His Son. I have not been ordered to think a certain way in order to be spared eternal death. I have been lovingly offered a way of life in order to live, even if I die. I hope you find truth, dear friend.

 

[Michael]

You have a good imagination. I would like to say again that we didn't know something called a fire tornado until they were discovered recently. Scientists since the creation of earth would talk about phenomenon, and they mostly talked about the usually occurring one. It's really a bit hilarious to see that there wasn't any single scientist until the 19th century to describe the fire tornado phenomenon, considering that they are extremely rare, and would usually happen in places that have the ability to produce a tremendous amount of fire. I also wonder how many times how you ever seen a fire tornado in your life.

Actually yes, at least I've seen smaller sized "twisters" columns of fire (fire whirls). I happen to live in California, where high winds and fires are relatively commonplace. I've seen many fires in my lifetime, including some with twister-column like features. A recent fire in Redding (about an hour away from me) produced full on fire tornadoes, though I didn't personally witness them. Thanks to modern technology and the internet I've seen many more of them on video.

Admittedly Muhammad didn't have modern technology and video, but he certainly had access to other individuals who may have observed them. Even the reference that you listed from the Qur'an also lists the kind of "fuel" that one might expect to feed them too.

Humans throughout time have always been *excellent* observers of nature and these are things that do appear in nature. The fact that something was not written about or those other writings may have been lost over time does not mean that humans of the past never experienced them or discussed them. The fact it was even discussed in the Qur'an kind of undermines your assertion that they weren't written about until the 19th century. It need not have been "divine inspiration" that sparked that particular passage, but rather something that he personally witnessed in his lifetime.

Essentially you're just making a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily fact.

Even the concept of clouds being "heavy" is something that one might simply logically deduce from the fact that they've experienced a lot of rain from a thunderstorm and water is heavy.

 

[Skreeper]

Thanks for the respectful post. To begin with, the Messiah is an Arabic name for Jesus. Messiah is Jesus himself. In addition, Jesus did do miracles, but by the will of God. The Quran says:

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
(Quran 3:49)
Jesus even in the Bible didn't even when the hour is although God is supposed to be all knowing.

Mark 13:32
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Have you ever taken the time to think about that maybe you want the Quran to be scientifically accurate because it would validate your faith?

And it wouldn't surprise me. You're 16 and living in Egypt, and you probably were indoctrinated into this religion at a young age.

Are you sure you're fair and unbiased when you read and interpret the Quran?

 

[Nithavela]

You know you should switch those off before logging onto CF.

 

[expos4ever]

Sorry, I didn't knew plutonium having 102 protons is the only scientific fact.

That was not my point.

And you know it.

 

[TruthSeeker321]

Does Allah know the hour (of His return)? Is it told somewhere in the Quran?

What do you mean by the hour of his return?

 

[TruthSeeker321]

Have you ever taken the time to think about that maybe you want the Quran to be scientifically accurate because it would validate your faith?

And it wouldn't surprise me. You're 16 and living in Egypt, and you probably were indoctrinated into this religion at a young age.

Are you sure you're fair and unbiased when you read and interpret the Quran?

You people keep guessing, and making assumptions. You accused me of trying to make the Quran look scientific because of my fate although the scientific miracles aren't really the biggest proof. There're really more much, and these aren't the only scientific verses, but I wanted to give these verses a try, and see how people would respond.

By the way, my age and my location has nothing to do with my religion. If I were not a Muslim, I would have become a one. Sometimes a 16 years old may use his mind than most adults.

 

[Skreeper]

You people keep guessing, and making assumptions. You accused me of trying to make the Quran look scientific because of my fate although the scientific miracles aren't really the biggest proof. There're really more much, and these aren't the only scientific verses, but I wanted to give these verses a try, and see how people would respond.

By the way, my age and my location has nothing to do with my religion. If I were not a Muslim, I would have become a one. Sometimes a 16 years old may use his mind than most adults.

Your age and location does have a huge influence on what you believe. That's why Egypt has a Muslim majority, and Germany has a Christian majority.

Are you telling me that not everyone in your family is a Muslim? That would be highly unlikely.

I do hope that one day when you're older you will realize that you were taught nonsense.

 

[TruthSeeker321]

Actually yes, at least I've seen smaller sized "twisters" columns of fire (fire whirls). I happen to live in California, where high winds and fires are relatively commonplace. I've seen many fires in my lifetime, including some with twister-column like features. A recent fire in Redding (about an hour away from me) produced full on fire tornadoes, though I didn't personally witness them. Thanks to modern technology and the internet I've seen many more of them on video.

Admittedly Muhammad didn't have modern technology and video, but he certainly had access to other individuals who may have observed them. Even the reference that you listed from the Qur'an also lists the kind of "fuel" that one might expect to feed them too.

Humans throughout time have always been *excellent* observers of nature and these are things that do appear in nature. The fact that something was not written about or those other writings may have been lost over time does not mean that humans of the past never experienced them or discussed them. The fact it was even discussed in the Qur'an kind of undermines your assertion that they weren't written about until the 19th century. It need not have been "divine inspiration" that sparked that particular passage, but rather something that he personally witnessed in his lifetime.

Essentially you're just making a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily fact.

Even the concept of clouds being "heavy" is something that one might simply logically deduce from the fact that they've experienced a lot of rain from a thunderstorm and water is heavy.

You admit that you saw fire twisters because of modern technology. You live in California where forests, house, and big buildings may be a great source of fire, but you have never seen a fire tornado in the action in your entire life. The problem is that you keep making possibilities without evidence; You say (someone may have seen them, and told him...), but from which country is that guy from? And why would he even tell him about it? And the witnessing of fire tornadoes can't be singular since that they form in burning forests and houses meaning that a great amount of people would see them. Now, wouldn't it be weird for those people to leave their place, and go to someone in the desert to tell him about such a thing instead of reporting the case? Shouldn't the case although be know world wide? Do you believe that people back then didn't report such incidents? We really have some great historians, philosopher, and scientists. I'm sure they would have at least talked about them if they really happened. To assume that someone living in the desert was the only man to get talking about them is really absurd.