How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

[isshinwhat]

I don't agree with everything you say here, but I respect the clarity in which you express things, and you certainly give food for thought.

How would you line up what you say concerning Mary (what the RCC says) with the scriptures I quoted above...how can one reconcile the teaching that Mary was sinless against such passages...what am I missing?

Thank you for your kind greeting. My answer to reconciling the above passages would be quoting Mary herself as the foundation for our perspective, "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my Savior for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant." As I stated in my previous post, the Immaculate Conception, "was a redemptive act of God on a woman who would have otherwise been sinful..." Mary was still saved, she still experienced salvation, but she experienced it in a specific way because of the Son she would bear, Jesus. Using that for the basis...

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, “I have cleansed my heart,
I am pure from my sin”?

As I quoted above, the Immaculate Conception still makes Our Lord the savior of Mary... She was still a woman who would have been born separated from God had He not intervened, though in a singularly unique way; although John the Baptist was, "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb," he was not filled from the moment of his conception as Mary was (Luke1:15). The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary cleansed her own heart.

As for the rest speaking in terms of, "all have sinned," we would take that to mean that all men since Adam and Eve are naturally born in a state of separation from God, not that every person has literally, actively committed a personal sin - a baby, for example. If all means all literally, then they must be included, but obviously they are not. An infant cannot sin. They do; however, suffer from Original Sin (though it does not have the character of a personal fault), thus fitting with our understanding of those passages.

If I do not reply promptly to your posts, I am not really in a position to be able to visit here regularly. If you want, please feel free to send me a PM, as well, and I will respond when I am able to visit again.

 

[Wolseley]

I think everyone would agree that dogma, tradition, theology etc all have to submit themselves to the Holy Scriptures.

Actually, no, everyone wouldn't agree with that.

For Protestants, Holy Scripture is pre-eminent, interpreted through their particular denominational tradition.

For Catholics, Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition (including the dogmas of the Church), are equal in that they are both the Word of God and in their force of authority, as interpreted through the Sacred Magesterium of the Church.

To put it a bit more simply, Protestants interpret the Bible in light of itself, whereas Catholics interpret the Bible and Apostolic Tradition in light of each other. This is why Protestants and Catholics can take the same verse of Scripture (such as those dealing with Christ's "brothers and sisters", for example) and come up with completely different interpretations.

 

[Michie]

Hi, I have read right through this link, and also read the relevant parts of your further post on the subject...as this is not the place to debate what I have read I will refrain and simply say that I found the reasoning and use of scripture extremely convoluted...but thanks for posting.

I think looking into Christian history & thinking will help you tremendously. As Wolsley summed up quite well, I think the difference lies in that.

 

[Bella Vita]

I'm Baptist but some of you guys post in our forum so I am gonna post this here. I am not here to fight just want to see how this scripture can be looked over on this particular topic.

Mary was a sinner we know this because scripture itself tells us Jesus himself was the only one without sin and was the only one who was perfect to ever walk this Earth. This is why he was the only one able to hang on the cross dying a criminals death for our sins. If Mary was perfect and without sin why wasn't she a viable lamb and sacrifice for sin as Christ was?

Romans tells us "All fall short of the glory of God" so therefore even Mary was a sinner.

 

[Michie]

I'm Baptist but some of you guys post in our forum so I am gonna post this here. I am not here to fight just want to see how this scripture can be looked over on this particular topic.

Mary was a sinner we know this because scripture itself tells us Jesus himself was the only one without sin and was the only one who was perfect to ever walk this Earth. This is why he was the only one able to hang on the cross dying a criminals death for our sins. If Mary was perfect and without sin why wasn't she a viable lamb and sacrifice for sin as Christ was?

Romans tells us "All fall short of the glory of God" so therefore even Mary was a sinner.

You need to read the thread to see what point we are at in the discussion now.. You cannot debate Catholic teaching here. Your statement puts us back at step 1.

 

[St_Barnabus]

Actually, no, everyone wouldn't agree with that.

For Protestants, Holy Scripture is pre-eminent, interpreted through their particular denominational tradition.

For Catholics, Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition (including the dogmas of the Church), are equal in that they are both the Word of God and in their force of authority, as interpreted through the Sacred Magesterium of the Church.

To put it a bit more simply, Protestants interpret the Bible in light of itself, whereas Catholics interpret the Bible and Apostolic Tradition in light of each other. This is why Protestants and Catholics can take the same verse of Scripture (such as those dealing with Christ's "brothers and sisters", for example) and come up with completely different interpretations.

You have spoken well, Wolsely. I offer the following scriptures that Zazal may not have noticed, which disproves her theory entirely.

1 Tim. 3:15 "I write these things to you hoping to come to you shortly. But in order that you may know, if I am delayed, how to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth." The bible is not the mainstay of truth .. The Church is.

2 Tim: 3:14 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
The scriptures are used to back up what they already believed. Paul was speaking about the Old Testament, not the New since it had not been written yet.

Eph. 3:10 His intent was that "now, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms." Again, the Church makes known the wisdom of God, not the bible.

2 Thess. 2:15 "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter." Jesus did not tell his apostles to write a bible, but to "preach" the good news. It was transmitted orally, and in some instances, through an epistle confirming what they had heard by word of mouth.

 

[Bella Vita]

You need to read the thread to see what point we are at in the discussion now.. You cannot debate Catholic teaching here. Your statement puts us back at step 1.

I did read it no one has answered the question I proposed.

 

[St_Barnabus]

I did read it no one has answered the question I proposed.

Read my post #50 just above yours and take note that scripture is not the final word on dogma - the Church is.

 

[Michie]

Originally Posted by Bella Vita

I did read it no one has answered the question I proposed.

I don't think you did. If you read the links & info given that question is sort of pointless. Mary is was not God. She is a created human being like the rest of us. God saved her for His purpose. She as the first one saved in God's salvation plan. She could not save humanity. She could only cooperate with God's plan. She as not the one prophesied about in the OT & represented though types & shadows in Scripture. A Sola Scriptura believer should know that. She was not the Messiah to come.

 

[Bella Vita]

I don't think you did. If you read the links & info given that question is sort of pointless. Mary is was not God. She is a created human being like the rest of us. God saved her for I purpose. She as the first one saved in God's salvation plan. She could not save humanity. She col only cooperate with Go' plan. She as not the one prophesied but in the OT & represented though types & shadows in Scripture. A Sola Scriptura believer should know that. She was not the Messiah.

You just answered it yourself...

Mary is not God therefore she is not without sin. She is a human being just like the rest of us and therefore sinned. Jesus is the only person who has or will ever live without sin (John 8:46; Hebrews 4:15; 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22). Mary needed Christ to hang on that cross just like the rest of us he died for her salvation and sin just like he did for mine. Mary had to except Christ as her savior just like I had to just like you had to. Mary was a small part of a much bigger plan she wasn't the plan.

Scripture says we all have sinned except Jesus himself. And scripture also says he died on the cross for us all it doesn't say "he died on the cross for everyone except Mary".

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

2 Cor. 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

To suggest that you or anyone else is without sin is prideful! Jesus being the only one without sin is the only logical thing that works!

 

[Michie]

Now I know you did not read the links & info given. Why don't you do that & get back to me. You are operating strictly sola scriptura with no knowledge of Christian thinking, history & tradition. You are not allowed to go against Catholic teaching in this forum when you are plainly doing so without even having the courtesy to address the information given in this thread from a Catholic perspective.

Mary was preserved from sin but that does not negate her need for a Savior.

Your objections are as elementary as the OP because you are not addressing the Catholic information asked for & given. Until you do that there is no need to go on. We are way past step 1 here.

You just answered it yourself...

Mary is not God therefore she is not without sin. She is a human being just like the rest of us and therefore sinned. Jesus is the only person who has or will ever live without sin (John 8:46; Hebrews 4:15; 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22). Mary needed Christ to hang on that cross just like the rest of us he died for her salvation and sin just like he did for mine. Mary had to except Christ as her savior just like I had to just like you had to. Mary was a small part of a much bigger plan she wasn't the plan.

Scripture says we all have sinned except Jesus himself. And scripture also says he died on the cross for us all it doesn't say "he died on the cross for everyone except Mary".

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

2 Cor. 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

To suggest that you or anyone else is without sin is prideful! Jesus being the only one without sin is the only logical thing that works!

 

[Castaway57]

You have spoken well, Wolsely. I offer the following scriptures that Zazal may not have noticed, which disproves her theory entirely.

1 Tim. 3:15 "I write these things to you hoping to come to you shortly. But in order that you may know, if I am delayed, how to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth." The bible is not the mainstay of truth .. The Church is.

2 Tim: 3:14 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
The scriptures are used to back up what they already believed. Paul was speaking about the Old Testament, not the New since it had not been written yet.

Eph. 3:10 His intent was that "now, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms." Again, the Church makes known the wisdom of God, not the bible.

2 Thess. 2:15 "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter." Jesus did not tell his apostles to write a bible, but to "preach" the good news. It was transmitted orally, and in some instances, through an epistle confirming what they had heard by word of mouth.

What Bible version are you using my friend?

 

[Zeek]

FWIW, It may help to consider the Ark of the Covenant in the O.T. where Moses was given specific instructions as to how to build it. It was made of purest gold and placed in the Holy of Holies in the Meeting Tent. Nobody was permitted to enter behind this veil where God's glory was present among them, except for one day a year, the Day of Atonement. If things were not done according to God's instruction, the priest would die.

Catholics have called Mary the Ark of the (new) covenant, and her womb where the HOLY LORD was conceived had to be just as pure as the O.T. ark. If God would cause death to those who were not pure enough to enter the Holies, it is very believable that He would prepare the Ark of the dwelling of His Son for 9 months to be absolutely pure of any stain of original sin. It is an easy matter for us to believe.

I hope this helps you understand our faith in her wondrous preservation from sin. The Angel Gabriel hailed her as "full of grace" and indeed she was by God's special favor.

Thank you...I have read of this several times although personally it does not compute and goes beyond what I would call reasonable exergesis...but in respect to your wishes I will not attempt to present a different narrative that I believe carries far greater weight.

 

[Zeek]

Thank you for your kind greeting. My answer to reconciling the above passages would be quoting Mary herself as the foundation for our perspective, "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my Savior for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant." As I stated in my previous post, the Immaculate Conception, "was a redemptive act of God on a woman who would have otherwise been sinful..." Mary was still saved, she still experienced salvation, but she experienced it in a specific way because of the Son she would bear, Jesus. Using that for the basis...


As I quoted above, the Immaculate Conception still makes Our Lord the savior of Mary... She was still a woman who would have been born separated from God had He not intervened, though in a singularly unique way; although John the Baptist was, "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb," he was not filled from the moment of his conception as Mary was (Luke1:15). The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary cleansed her own heart.

As for the rest speaking in terms of, "all have sinned," we would take that to mean that all men since Adam and Eve are naturally born in a state of separation from God, not that every person has literally, actively committed a personal sin - a baby, for example. If all means all literally, then they must be included, but obviously they are not. An infant cannot sin. They do; however, suffer from Original Sin (though it does not have the character of a personal fault), thus fitting with our understanding of those passages.

If I do not reply promptly to your posts, I am not really in a position to be able to visit here regularly. If you want, please feel free to send me a PM, as well, and I will respond when I am able to visit again.

Thanks I appreciate your response...I think the rub always boils down to what I would call a biblical perspective, and what you would call the teachings of the RCC.

By biblical perspective I am not advocating sola scriptura as I believe many writings, teachings and doctrinal arguments right back to the Apostles all carry weight and validity and can aid us in getting G-ds perspective on what has been passed down to us in the form of Scripture.

I would simply say that in this case the way Catholicism arrives at its conclusion is utterly baffling for me, especially in the light of my own reading of the Bible.

I think sin or the working of iniquity is one of the mysteries in the Bible and like you say original sin is separation from G-d...and from my understanding no-one is exempt.

I do believe Mary was a truely righteous lady and the grace and favour of G-d rested on her in a unique way..but I cannot understand the need to build a theology around her or claim for her things that were never claimed in the teachings of the Apostles...but again I understand you submit to RCC doctrine and you have no choice but to believe what they say or else you will be going against those you believe G-d has appointed to bring His truth to the world.

King regards. Zazal

 

[Zeek]

Actually, no, everyone wouldn't agree with that.

For Protestants, Holy Scripture is pre-eminent, interpreted through their particular denominational tradition.

For Catholics, Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition (including the dogmas of the Church), are equal in that they are both the Word of God and in their force of authority, as interpreted through the Sacred Magesterium of the Church.

To put it a bit more simply, Protestants interpret the Bible in light of itself, whereas Catholics interpret the Bible and Apostolic Tradition in light of each other. This is why Protestants and Catholics can take the same verse of Scripture (such as those dealing with Christ's "brothers and sisters", for example) and come up with completely different interpretations.

I don't think that is strictly true...many non-Catholics reference all sorts of writings, especially some of the Jewish sages, Church fathers, rulings at various councils etc...and many also respect so much that has come from Catholic scholars and godly people...just because some doctrines are challenged, doesn't mean everything is disgarded, and I think many Catholics immediately assume all non-Catholics subject the Bible to their private interpretations, and pick and chose whatever appeals to them.

I think you can only subject yourself to any authority if you believe they have been ordained to that position. Many, like myself, do not submit to Rome, not because we hate or despise G-d given authority, but because we don't recognise the same things you do, and have seen a whole gamut of corruption, control and strange doctrines emerge from something that is meant to represent the Living G-d.

In the same breath I don't see any one Christian community being the answer or demonstrating the divine authority spoken of in Scripture and it is an area that I am constantly looking at and trying to better understand.

Please note I am not trying to debate here as it is not the place to do it, but I am just opening myself up so you can see where I am coming from without having to make assumptions.

G-d bless. Zazal

 

[ivebeenshown]

'All have sinned and fallen short of God'. Mary is a part of the whole of sinful humanity. All means every person born after Adam and Eves creation. Every single one. Other then Christ himself. Christ was before man.

Where does the bible give the definition of 'all' that you have given? How do we know the author was not using hyperbole? Christ was not a human until after Adam and Eve, by the way. Before his miraculous conception he was only in spirit.

If Mary was sinless then Jesus wold not have been needed and he suffered the cross in shame.

Mary was sinless by the grace of Christ before he was even born. It's a testament to Christ's power.

 

[whitebeaches]

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[FreeinChrist]

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[JCFantasy23]

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[Zeek]

Probably a bit pointless moving the thread here as many of those participating only want to impose their views within the sanctuary of their domain and not debate or discuss in a place where their views are open to serious challenges.