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How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

Zeek

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The Immaculate Conception, like all Marian Dogmas, is centered on Christ. The Church teaches that God, as a singular gift of Grace, blessed Mary with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception. Had he not done this, she would have been born under and suffered the consequences of Original Sin. Because it was a redemptive act of God on a woman who would have otherwise been sinless, Mary could truly call God her Savior.

That is the Church's teaching. The rest is why, IN MY UNDERSTANDING. I hope it jives with the Church's teaching. Mary was given the Indwelling at conception, just as Adam and Eve were. Adam and Eve were not created fallen, but pure and in the image of God. It is because of Christ, the New Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21-23) , that Mary, the New Eve (Genesis 2:15) was given this gift.

What is amazing to me, is that Christ was born sinless in his humanity by the very nature that he received from his mother. His flesh wasn't cleansed of anything, HE WAS CONCEIVED PURE BY NATURE, not through redemption as was Mary, because she had no sin to pass on to Jesus. He was truly the first-born of a new creation, one that was as God had intended it from the beginning, born pure without the need of cleansing (Romans 8:29). Through Christ, the first-born, we can be re-born, in Him, the Pure and Spotless Paschal Lamb. Through being baptized into His death, we can share in His life (Romans 6:4). How amazing is the Lord, our God, that he chose a lowly handmaiden to be Full of Grace (Luke 1:28) in preparation for the coming of His Kingdom.

The Immaculate Conception was for Christ, and in anticipation of His Coming. It was not made up to glorify Mary. It was a gift from God to us all.

Praise be to Our Lord, Jesus Christ!

I don't agree with everything you say here, but I respect the clarity in which you express things, and you certainly give food for thought. :thumbsup:

How would you line up what you say concerning Mary (what the RCC says) with the scriptures I quoted above...how can one reconcile the teaching that Mary was sinless against such passages...what am I missing?
 
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St_Barnabus

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Dear brother in the L-rd.

I have not tried to teach anybody anything, I have simply shown and high-lighted a number of Scriptures that relate to the OP 'How can Mary be sinless?'

The problem is that the scriptures you cited are implicating that Mary, like the rest of us, has committed sin, which is clearly against Catholic teaching. And you persist with subtle insults, such as this:

I must admit to being a wee bit of a sceptic when any religious group claims to have infallible insight/teaching...which pre-empts any argument and can be a soporific to those that willingly digest such a degree...Stepford Wives syndrome springs to mind....classically recognisable within cults such as the Mormons or JW's.

I believe we have nothing further to discuss.
 
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Castaway57

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If anybody is truly interested in a great talk about this topic with the Virgin Mary, I highly recommend this CD set: The Gospel Truth About Mary Volume 1: Mary, the Mother of God and the Immaculate Conception

It helps to clearly explain the reasons why the Catholic Church teaches that the Virgin Mary was born without original sin and why she lived a sinless life. What special graces the Lord placed upon her! :)
Do you by chance know of any where online I could read similar materials as what would be on these cds? I would just like to understand better why Catholics teach what they do about Mary.

I have always enjoyed studying what the Bible says about Mary; and her being the Mother of God; it is a subject of deep interest to me. I will appreciate any replies to my questions here. :)
 
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Rhamiel

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I don't agree with everything you say here, but I respect the clarity in which you express things, and you certainly give food for thought. :thumbsup:

How would you line up what you say concerning Mary (what the RCC says) with the scriptures I quoted above...how can one reconcile the teaching that Mary was sinless against such passages...what am I missing?

well the Bible says "all have sinned"
does that mean Jesus has sinned too?

of course not!

so the all have sinned is ment to show the fallen state of mankind, which is a spiritual reality.
Mary is an exception to te rule
she was not saved by her own power, but kept from sin by the grace of God

she had a special purpose, to carry the third person of the Trinity inside her

so God kept her set aside for this special purpose
 
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Rhamiel

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Do you by chance know of any where online I could read similar materials as what would be on these cds? I would just like to understand better why Catholics teach what they do about Mary.

I have always enjoyed studying what the Bible says about Mary; and her being the Mother of God; it is a subject of deep interest to me. I will appreciate any replies to my questions here. :)

Michie has some good websites, I will see if she can link them here
 
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Michie

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Do you by chance know of any where online I could read similar materials as what would be on these cds? I would just like to understand better why Catholics teach what they do about Mary.

I have always enjoyed studying what the Bible says about Mary; and her being the Mother of God; it is a subject of deep interest to me. I will appreciate any replies to my questions here. :)
Posting again for good measure. I'll see if I can find anything else that may be of interest to you.
About Mary...where in the Bible does it say...
Was Mary sinless throughout her entire life?
Do I have to believe Mary was sinless to be a Catholic?
Mary's Sinless Nature
If Mary was sinless, why did she need a Savior?
 
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Michie

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Immaculate Conception and Assumption

The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine briefly two Marian doctrines that Fundamentalist writers frequently object to—the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Immaculate Conception[/FONT]

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Fundamentalists’ Objections[/FONT]

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief.

The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Assumption[/FONT]

The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again?

There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]No Remains[/FONT]

There is also what might be called the negative historical proof for Mary’s Assumption. It is easy to document that, from the first, Christians gave homage to saints, including many about whom we now know little or nothing. Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. Rome, for example, houses the tombs of Peter and Paul, Peter’s tomb being under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved—there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave their lives for the faith.

It is agreed upon that Mary ended her life in Jerusalem, or perhaps in Ephesus. However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Complement to the Immaculate Conception[/FONT]

Over the centuries, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and—the key—her union with the salvific work of Christ.

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Mary’s Cooperation[/FONT]

Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation (Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4). Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35), and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17). Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.

All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27). As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38), Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Bible Only?[/FONT]


Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004[/FONT]​
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
 
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WarriorAngel

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KNOCK knock knock...

YO - this is not GT - so the preaching to Catholics best cease.

Mary is sinless - scriptures do elude to it, the ecf's taught on it - and scriptures in English are a very pale understanding.
And last - scriptures are not the end all of teaching from the Lord - they are half of the whole.

Christ said to build His Church - He didnt say - write me a Bible.

The Bible is an article of the ownership of that Church that Christ built - and we do know how to interpret what was written from our beginnings.
 
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WarriorAngel

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..And the PM's need to stop.
I dont have time to argue with anyone in private. I dont go to GT because of that reason i just dont feel the need to show what has been truth for 20 centuries to have someone from the last decade tell me what it is supposed to mean.

Muhammad built his religion saying that, John Smith and Ellen White also built their religions doing that - but here's a clue - Jesus said HIS Church wouldnt fail.
Its still here - still teaching the same doctrines and truths - and the modern day stories do not interest me.

Keep the 'questions' in here.
Not the arguing.

Thanks.
 
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Michie

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Again:


Immaculate Conception and Assumption

The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine briefly two Marian doctrines that Fundamentalist writers frequently object to—the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Immaculate Conception[/FONT]

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Fundamentalists’ Objections[/FONT]

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief.

The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Assumption[/FONT]

The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again?

There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]No Remains[/FONT]

There is also what might be called the negative historical proof for Mary’s Assumption. It is easy to document that, from the first, Christians gave homage to saints, including many about whom we now know little or nothing. Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. Rome, for example, houses the tombs of Peter and Paul, Peter’s tomb being under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved—there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave their lives for the faith.

It is agreed upon that Mary ended her life in Jerusalem, or perhaps in Ephesus. However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Complement to the Immaculate Conception[/FONT]

Over the centuries, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and—the key—her union with the salvific work of Christ.

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Mary’s Cooperation[/FONT]

Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation (Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4). Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35), and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17). Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.

All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27). As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38), Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Bible Only?[/FONT]


Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004[/FONT]​
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
 
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WarriorAngel

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I concur.

Immaculate Conception and Assumption

The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine briefly two Marian doctrines that Fundamentalist writers frequently object to—the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Immaculate Conception[/FONT]

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Fundamentalists’ Objections[/FONT]

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief.

The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Assumption[/FONT]

The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again?

There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]No Remains[/FONT]

There is also what might be called the negative historical proof for Mary’s Assumption. It is easy to document that, from the first, Christians gave homage to saints, including many about whom we now know little or nothing. Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. Rome, for example, houses the tombs of Peter and Paul, Peter’s tomb being under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved—there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave their lives for the faith.

It is agreed upon that Mary ended her life in Jerusalem, or perhaps in Ephesus. However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Complement to the Immaculate Conception[/FONT]

Over the centuries, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and—the key—her union with the salvific work of Christ.

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Mary’s Cooperation[/FONT]

Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation (Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4). Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35), and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17). Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.

All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27). As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38), Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Bible Only?[/FONT]


Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004[/FONT]​
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
 
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FreeinChrist

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As a reminder, it is not okay to teach against Catholic teachings in this particular forum.

The rules include:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.
 
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Castaway57

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hey, Happy new Years Michie, and everyone else here! lol, atleast it will be the new year in about 2 hrs here where I live.

I appreciated all your replies here so far to me, and I have a couple of quick questions to start, if I may?

You seemed to address "Fundamentalists" a number of times in your posts. May I ask what that refers to? Is it anyone who is not Catholic?

Also; I am wondering what the following phrase means when it is at the end of an article:
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004[/FONT]
It is mostly the first two words that I am wondering about. :)
 
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Rhamiel

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hey, Happy new Years Michie, and everyone else here! lol, atleast it will be the new year in about 2 hrs here where I live.

I appreciated all your replies here so far to me, and I have a couple of quick questions to start, if I may?

You seemed to address "Fundamentalists" a number of times in your posts. May I ask what that refers to? Is it anyone who is not Catholic?

Also; I am wondering what the following phrase means when it is at the end of an article:
It is mostly the first two words that I am wondering about. :)

NIHIL OBSTAT means "nothing hinders" or nothing stays in the way

it is a stamp of approval from a Bishop saying that nothing in the work is agianst the Catholic Faith
 
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iambren

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This has been illuminating. I have friends who are Catholic and have even obtained graduate theological education at a Catholic seminary (Josephinum, in Columbus OH).

But as a Protestant I see what a watershed issue it is over Mary. The issues are the view of Mary and the old conflict of sola scriptura. These are walls that I can't get over but Catholics are sill by brothers/sisters.
 
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Zeek

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Originally Posted by Zazal
Dear brother in the L-rd.

I have not tried to teach anybody anything, I have simply shown and high-lighted a number of Scriptures that relate to the OP 'How can Mary be sinless?'
The problem is that the scriptures you cited are implicating that Mary, like the rest of us, has committed sin, which is clearly against Catholic teaching. And you persist with subtle insults, such as this:


I must admit to being a wee bit of a sceptic when any religious group claims to have infallible insight/teaching...which pre-empts any argument and can be a soporific to those that willingly digest such a degree...Stepford Wives syndrome springs to mind....classically recognisable within cults such as the Mormons or JW's.

From where I stand it seems pertinent scriptures can be swept aside and replaced with religious logic, I have been trying to get a handle on it as it dosn't make sense....but no matter.
I believe we have nothing further to discuss.

Your choice...which I respect but find disappointing. Qed.

Thank you
 
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Zeek

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well the Bible says "all have sinned"
does that mean Jesus has sinned too?

of course not!

so the all have sinned is ment to show the fallen state of mankind, which is a spiritual reality.
Mary is an exception to te rule
she was not saved by her own power, but kept from sin by the grace of God

she had a special purpose, to carry the third person of the Trinity inside her

so God kept her set aside for this special purpose

A couple of things if I might be allowed to interject, not in 'teaching mode', or 'discussion mode' but simply my observation of what the Bible shows concerning what you say.

1. Unlike Mary, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was without sin...it is obvious that scripture is talking of ALL man-kind. Jesus is the L-rd Himself....utterly sinless. So if we believe what the Bible says about the Saviour, how is it that some believe what the Bible doesn't say about Mary..why should I be compelled to accept something that appears to be contrary to sound doctrine?

2. How can you just say 'Mary was the exception to the rule' (even if you use religious language), when the Bible never implies such a thing and in fact numerous scriptures attest differently?

I am going to read what Michie copied and pasted concerning the official RCC stance on the subject...please don't feel you are obliged to reply to what I have written, even though they are in the form of questions.
 
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Zeek

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Hi, I have read right through this link, and also read the relevant parts of your further post on the subject...as this is not the place to debate what I have read I will refrain and simply say that I found the reasoning and use of scripture extremely convoluted...but thanks for posting. :)
 
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St_Barnabus

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Thank you

FWIW, It may help to consider the Ark of the Covenant in the O.T. where Moses was given specific instructions as to how to build it. It was made of purest gold and placed in the Holy of Holies in the Meeting Tent. Nobody was permitted to enter behind this veil where God's glory was present among them, except for one day a year, the Day of Atonement. If things were not done according to God's instruction, the priest would die.

Catholics have called Mary the Ark of the (new) covenant, and her womb where the HOLY LORD was conceived had to be just as pure as the O.T. ark. If God would cause death to those who were not pure enough to enter the Holies, it is very believable that He would prepare the Ark of the dwelling of His Son for 9 months to be absolutely pure of any stain of original sin. It is an easy matter for us to believe.

I hope this helps you understand our faith in her wondrous preservation from sin. The Angel Gabriel hailed her as "full of grace" and indeed she was by God's special favor.
 
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