How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

[Jonathan95]

Hi,

Do you believe Mary has always been sinless? How can she be sinless if Jesus had to come in the flesh?

"and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." 1 John 4:3 NKJV

2 John 1:7 as well.


How could Jesus be tempted then, if he didn't receive the flesh through Mary?

To be carnal is to be sold under sin.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

 

[Michie]

Reading these links will help you in understanding this.

About Mary...where in the Bible does it say...
Was Mary sinless throughout her entire life?
Do I have to believe Mary was sinless to be a Catholic?
Mary's Sinless Nature
If Mary was sinless, why did she need a Savior?

 

[Michie]

BTW- I have no idea what 1 John 4:3 has to do with this.

but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Or 2 John 1:7

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[Michie]

Well now that you clarified (a little) in PM's. Maybe this will help...Jesus was fully human, meaning he is as much human as we all are. This includes a human will & desire. But He also is fully God. His human will was in perfect submission to His divine will. The only way he could have sinned is if He was not fully God. But we all believers know that He is.

If Christ could not sin, how was he tempted in the desert?

​

The Spirit drove Jesus out into the desert, and he remained in the desert for forty days, tempted by Satan.

We know that Jesus was truly tempted in the desert, for such is the teaching of Sacred Scripture. And yet, it should be clear that Our Savior could not – he simply could not – sin. The Lord Jesus is impeccable, he cannot sin.

If the Church teaches that Jesus could not possibly sin, in what sense can we affirm that he was tempted in the desert?

Jesus is impeccable – He could not possibly sin

Insofar as we recognize that Jesus Christ is truly God, it is clear that he cannot possibly sin. God cannot sin, therefore Jesus cannot sin. It is impossible to even conceive of Christ sinning without mentally separating and dividing his divine and human natures – that is, one cannot think that Jesus could sin without becoming a Nestorian heretic.

But, one says, “Jesus isn’t only God, he is also man. Therefore, his human nature allows him to have the possibility of sinning.”

Clearly this cannot be the case: For a nature does not sin, but a person. And Jesus is a Divine Person, therefore, as God and as man, he cannot possibly sin. If Jesus could sin, then it would not be a man sinning, but God sinning through a human nature – and this is absurd.

It is simply and absolutely impossible for Christ to sin, because he is God and God cannot sin.

Further, we add that, even in his humanity, our Savior could not sin because his human will was perfectly united to his divine will; and his human intellect enjoyed an immediate knowledge and vision of God.

Thus, although the human will is the type of thing which can sin (because it is not divine), yet Christ’s human will was so elevated by the grace of the hypostatic union as to be entirely free from every possibility of sin.

The Second Council of Constantinople condemned Theodore of Mopsuestia for claiming that it was only after the Resurrection that Jesus became impeccable and entirely unable to sin. Thus, Christians are not free to think that Jesus could have possibly sinned at any time during his life on earth.

But, if Jesus couldn’t sin, was he really free?

Of course our Savior had free will! After all, the ability to sin does not make us more free, but less free. God cannot sin, and so he is absolutely free –his freedom is essentially greater than our freedom, in fact.

Further, the saints in heaven (together with the angels) cannot sin – for they enjoy the fullness of the beatific vision – and they are most certainly free. (cf. CCC 1045)

What a terrible thought, that being free from sin would make us a slave! It is knowledge and truth (together with goodness and beauty) which makes us free, not sin – And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)
Continued- If Christ could not sin, how was he tempted in the desert? | The New Theological Movement

Also: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Temptation of Christ

 

[RomanRite]

Hi,

Do you believe Mary has always been sinless? How can she be sinless if Jesus had to come in the flesh?

"and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." 1 John 4:3 NKJV

2 John 1:7 as well.


How could Jesus be tempted then, if he didn't receive the flesh through Mary?

To be carnal is to be sold under sin.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Let me ask you something. Do you really understand what the Bible is saying?

Genesis 3:15 " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between you and her seed; he shall bruise your head,* and you shall bruise his heel"

Here is why we call Mary the New Eve, because she has fulfilled this role. Mary's Seed is Jesus. If Mary really was full of sin, then she would have been on the side of Satan, and Scripture would contradict itself now wouldn't it?

Luke 1:28 " Hail Mary, Full of Grace "

If Mary was full of Grace as scripture says, then with Gods grace, she has never sinned.

Luke 1:47 Mary states " I rejoice in God my savior " Which is the favorite verse of Protestants to " prove" Mary was a sinner. But what this scripture is really saying is that she needed a savior to save her from sin which made her sinless, and plus she was quoting from Psalms.

Look at it this way, if a lady is about to fall into a hole, and a man goes and grabs her before she falls, he has saved her from falling into that hole, it goes the same for sin.

God Bless!

 

[judechild]

In addition to the above, one reason that God planned for Mary to be sinless is so that she can be the most perfect sign we have of the effects of Christ dwelling within a person. Jesus says "I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Mary literally had Christ - God - "remaining" within her; the physical carrying of the Christ-child is a powerful sign of the Christian person carrying the Christ in his or her own life. When Christ "remains" in us, and we in Him, we bear fruit. The sign is strong, though, only if Mary was sinless; it is a very poor sign if she had Christ "remaining" in her, but she was still in her sins. The image that would come out of that would be one of Christ dwelling within the sinful person, while that person remains in his or her sins - that image would be contrary to Jesus' intention to "cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Mary's protection from the stain of original sin, then, is a sign of the cleansing effect of carrying Christ within.

 

[Justaman0000]

No, I do not believe that she was sinless. Scripture says that she was highly favored in luke 1:28, not sinless.

 

[D'Ann]

The teaching of Mary being sinless is a very profound and deep teaching. It is a teaching that combines the flesh with the spirit as well as expanding on how time and space in a spiritual way is not limited as it is in our earthly way.

God is the beginning, present and end of all things. Jesus could not be born from Mary unless she was pure, holy and clean, for God could not touch anything unless it is.

Mary was blessed in that Jesus was her Lord and benefited from His Crucifixion and Resurrection even before it happened here on earth. I'm not sure exactly how to logically explain it other than God is not limited by our own time dimensions.

God blessed Mary with grace. I'm sure this doesn't explain it as well as others have and it's been a long time that I've shared about various faith teachings, but I do hope this is helpful to you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have explained kecharitomene (κεχαριτωμέν&#951 in PM's - but you tried changing it.

 

[Michie]

I have explained kecharitomene (κεχαριτωμέν&#951 in PM's - but you tried changing it.

LOL! Well that explains my experience as well.

 

[RomanRite]

No, I do not believe that she was sinless. Scripture says that she was highly favored in luke 1:28, not sinless.

Give me scripture and verse that proves this nonsense. Do you believe anything through God is possible? What if he wanted and created Mary sinless? Would you still disagree because your private interpretation says otherwise?

At the throne of God, would you say, " Well the KJV says that she was favored"? When a bible says " favored one " you can see it was not interpreted from the original Greek.

 

[Tallguy88]

Give me scripture and verse that proves this nonsense. Do you believe anything through God is possible? What if he wanted and created Mary sinless? Would you still disagree because your private interpretation says otherwise?

At the throne of God, would you say, " Well the KJV says that she was favored"? When a bible says " favored one " you can see it was not interpreted from the original Greek.

Favored or highly favored is an acceptable translation. So is full of grace, one who has grace, and similar phrases.

It is not so much the translation that is off, it's their interpretation that gets them into trouble. If they try to use favored one to deny that she was already infused with God's grace, then it's a problem.

 

[RomanRite]

Favored or highly favored is an acceptable translation. So is full of grace, one who has grace, and similar phrases.

It is not so much the translation that is off, it's their interpretation that gets them into trouble. If they try to use favored one to deny that she was already infused with God's grace, then it's a problem.

Ah I see, I was told " favored one " was false :S

My apologies

 

[iambren]

It is not so much what Mary's spiritual condition was as what Christ's spiritual condition was. Adam sinned and the second Adam later emerges in Jesus. I believe the sin nature genetically comes down through the male, since we all have an earthly father we all have the sin nature as did Mary.

Mary WAS blessed in being the mother of God, in performing that wondrous role in history and I don't have to see her as "sinless" any more than missionaries, theologians, or martyrs have done in history.

Jesus in having a mother, born of the Holy Spirit as a father (not earthly father so no sin nature transmitted) walked without sin to the cross.

 

[ivebeenshown]

I believe with the Church that Mary was and is sinless by the grace and power of God. She is a most glorious testament to His capabilities and the Scriptures in no way contradict this point of faith.

 

[Castaway57]

I believe with the Church that Mary was and is sinless by the grace and power of God. She is a most glorious testament to His capabilities and the Scriptures in no way contradict this point of faith.

Hope it is OK for me to butt in here for a minute? I was wondering if anyone has a Bible text that actually says Mary was sinless?

 

[Zeek]

I think everyone would agree that dogma, tradition, theology etc all have to submit themselves to the Holy Scriptures.

Much of what is written in Scripture is plain enough for most born-again Believers to comprehend if indeed the Spirit dwells in them...this doesn't mean it is open to private interpretation, it means that what is written in scripture is true and none of our methods of exergesis are superior to what is plainly written no matter what the source or authority....the higher authority always wins.

If our theology does not line up with the word of G-d...guess which is true.

2 Chronicles 6:36 "When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin) and You are angry with them and deliver them to an enemy, so that they take them away captive to a land far off or near,

Romans 3: 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, “I have cleansed my heart,
I am pure from my sin”?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Angeldove97]

If anybody is truly interested in a great talk about this topic with the Virgin Mary, I highly recommend this CD set: The Gospel Truth About Mary Volume 1: Mary, the Mother of God and the Immaculate Conception

It helps to clearly explain the reasons why the Catholic Church teaches that the Virgin Mary was born without original sin and why she lived a sinless life. What special graces the Lord placed upon her!

 

[St_Barnabus]

I think everyone would agree that dogma, tradition, theology etc all have to submit themselves to the Holy Scriptures. [False. We submit to the lawful authority appointed by Jesus to interpret them in truth.]

Much of what is written in Scripture is plain enough for most born-again Believers to comprehend if indeed the Spirit dwells in them...this doesn't mean it is open to private interpretation, [isn't that what you're doing here?]
If our theology does not line up with the word of G-d...guess which is true.

Dear friend in Christ,

If you persist in trying to teach Catholics what to believe, please know that it is against forum rules. Reading between the lines, you are using scripture alone to prove something that is not our teaching. That is the problem with sola scripturists, that they only accept what is within the bible. Did you realize that Catholics were the very ones who decided what books to include in the bible?

Is the word Trinity in the bible? Or the word Purgatory? Or the Immaculate Conception? Or sacraments? No. Yet these are solemnly defined beliefs that are found in our traditional teachings, with the authority of the Magisterium to interpret both scripture and tradition infallibly, which of course, you probably do not believe in.

 

[isshinwhat]

The Immaculate Conception, like all Marian Dogmas, is centered on Christ. The Church teaches that God, as a singular gift of Grace, blessed Mary with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception. Had he not done this, she would have been born under and suffered the consequences of Original Sin. Because it was a redemptive act of God on a woman who would have otherwise been sinful, Mary could truly call God her Savior.

That is the Church's teaching. The rest is why, IN MY UNDERSTANDING. I hope it jives with the Church's teaching. Mary was given the Indwelling at conception, just as Adam and Eve were. Adam and Eve were not created fallen, but pure and in the image of God. It is because of Christ, the New Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21-23) , that Mary, the New Eve (Genesis 2:15) was given this gift.

What is amazing to me, is that Christ was born sinless in his humanity by the very nature that he received from his mother. His flesh wasn't cleansed of anything, HE WAS CONCEIVED PURE BY NATURE, not through redemption as was Mary, because she had no sin to pass on to Jesus. He was truly the first-born of a new creation, one that was as God had intended it from the beginning, born pure without the need of cleansing (Romans 8:29). Through Christ, the first-born, we can be re-born, in Him, the Pure and Spotless Paschal Lamb. Through being baptized into His death, we can share in His life (Romans 6:4). How amazing is the Lord, our God, that he chose a lowly handmaiden to be Full of Grace (Luke 1:28) in preparation for the coming of His Kingdom.

The Immaculate Conception was for Christ, and in anticipation of His Coming. It was not made up to glorify Mary. It was a gift from God to us all.

Praise be to Our Lord, Jesus Christ!