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I don't disagree with you. What I wonder is, did Jesus bear particular sins, or the punishment for sin? If he bore the punishment that sin deserves it explains how he covered future sins.
Show scripture on that.
I agree . Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of SIN . His blood was shed once , and for all.
Don't you think "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" refers to the additional suffering required for taking the gospel to the worldI don't want to enter into a 'verse contest' but you might ponder on this one...Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...
Here, Paul is experiencing with Jesus His sufferings for the body, in real time, for brothers and sisters, as if the event of the cross was happening now.
So eventually the sufferings of Christ on the Cross will all have been experienced by His servants for the healing of the body of Christ - this is sharing in His sufferrings. This is at the heart of the ministry of intercession.
Good Day, Jeffweedman
You might wish to read the fuller context:
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Many is not all
Bill
But I believe Jesus bore our sins in time, not in eternity, even it's effect reaches eternity backward and forward.
ok, either way nothing was added.It doesn't have to be written to know that the "unwritten teachings" will not disagree with the written teachings, or with the figurative patterns, types, shadows of the OT, for God does not contradict himself in his word.
That being the case, we have what we need in what is written.
And we don't get to replace it in the name of what was not written.
"Life" is added-that's a new one for me sorry.But it is. . .life is added to the actual flesh and blood sacrifice of Christ which purpose of that sacrifice was death.
ok-nicely speculated-I guess.Actually, it does not.
There was no "real presence" in the flesh of the sacrificed animal consumed in the OT sacrificial meals.
To be the actual flesh and blood of the sacrifice does not give it the "real presence" of the life sacrificed.
The whole point of the sacrificial system was death, in payment of the penalty for sin.
So we do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his death, his actual sacrificed body and blood
in the Lord's Supper.
The living Christ is already in us. . .so why are we clinging to a false magic regarding his sacrificed (lifeless) body and blood?
Are we not slighting his actual living presence in us. . preferring/needing/wanting a magical presence more than his actual presence in us?
I said I was a farmer-also a trucker. A fairly religious non-cleric oneYou haven't answered my question if you are lay, religious or cleric?
Don't you think "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" refers to the additional suffering required for taking the gospel to the world
after Christ's sufferings were completed in his death?
"Filling up what is lacking" would not be referring to Christ's own personal suffering, but to the additional suffering of Paul and others
needed to give the gospel to mankind.
"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” -- John 8
The Son is one with God and God has the characteristic of extratemporal simultaneity. He exists simultaneously in all moments of time, which is the other side of the coin from omnipresence. Because time and space are a continuum, the Lord exists simultaneously at every point in space and also in every moment of time.
God is existing simultaneously in the moment of Christ's death and in the moments of each our our sins. He is seeing both simultaneously.
We see this displayed in other places, such as Psalm 22.
Actually, it does not.ok, either way nothing was added.
and, as I said, Scripture supports the literal, RP meaning anyway
Yes, there was no life in the sacrificed flesh of the OT sacrificial meal, which is the pattern for NT sacrificial meal in the Lord's Supper."Life" is added-that's a new one for me sorry.
1 Corinthians 11:26 and Colossians 1:27 are not speculation.ok-nicely speculated-I guess.
Alright. Keep trying.Actually, it does not.
First of all, Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"
(1 Corinthians 11:26) not his "real presence."
We are proclaiming the atoning death of Christ for sin, not some "real presence."
You have altered Paul's teaching.
We do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his atoning death for our sin, his actual sacrificed body and blood
that paid for our sin, receiving into ourselves its atoning benefits, as was its pattern in the OT sacrificial system.
The living Christ is already in us. . .so why are we clinging to a false magic regarding his "real presence" in the Lord's Supper.
Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"Alright. Keep trying.
Clare, you've shown nothing, except that you can engage in some fairly logical thinking which may point to some truth-or not. You know nothing of what you speak-you have no way of knowing.Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"
(1 Corinthians 11:26) not his "real presence."
We are proclaiming the atoning death of Christ for sin, not some "real presence."
You have added to Paul's teaching.
Paul presents the Lord's Supper to be about his atoning death, to which
you add a living "real presence," which is actually contrary to Paul's teaching.
We do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his atoning death for our sin, his actual sacrificed body
and blood that paid for our sin, receiving into ourselves its atoning benefits, just as it was patterned in the OT sacrificial system.
Yes, a lay person.Are you a lay person? I would apprecite a direct answer.
Thanks.
Agree the sacrifice covers all sins, past, present, future. But was Jesus punished for future sins not yet committed? In what way are they covered?
Good Day, Jeffweedman
You might wish to read the fuller context:
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Many is not all
You may be confused by this in the context earlier
For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people
All the people would be the Jews alone.. and not any Gentiles.
There were many Jews, but not all were Jews.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
In Him,
Bill
A timeless effect has to be from a timeless cause if it is active in past time.
I don't even understand how Jesus could bare any sin at all anyway.I was out walking today, thinking about the sacrifice of Christ. Then this question arose, how Jesus could have born all sins that hadn't even been committed yet. How do you reason around this?
Thats speaking of the Hebrew priests, whose main job was offering animal sacrifices...not the sacrifice which was once, for all.If only Scripture agreed with that in Hebrews 7:27.
... The mundane and the material aren't what our faith is about anyway. Nor is it about hyper-rationalism.
But I do know, and I do have a way of knowing, it's the word of God written.Clare, you've shown nothing, except that you can engage in some fairly logical thinking which may point to some truth-or not.
You know nothing of what you speak-you have no way of knowing.
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